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AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:31 PM Jul 2015

I don't need Sandra Bland's death to have been a murder. There's still the question of 'justice'.

I will assume, till there is evidence otherwise, that it was a suicide. I understand why some people smell foul play. There is precedent. I'm certainly not ruling it out myself, but I won't assume it. I'll assume it was a straight up suicide. Fine. The whole damn tragedy is still unacceptable to me. That cop whipped around and followed her, BEFORE there was a lane change. He allegedly closed behind her at a high rate of speed, causing her to change lanes. Forgot her turn signal? Really? If this was a sport, that would be a Forced Error in baseball, tennis, chess, etc. The officer didn't observe Sandra doing anything, until after he interacted with her, and that interaction altered her behavior. When she moved, the movement that led to the alleged infraction was induced by his presence. If he was willing to gloat that he'd have let her go with a warning later, then we already know beyond a shadow of a doubt the attempt to ticket and go beyond that point was unjustifiable. He should have just given her a warning, at most. Not a ticket, a warning. He admitted it. But he was not there to investigate or deal with a turn signal infraction, he was fishing for more. In this case, a 'bad attitude' is sufficiently 'more'. Looks to me like a little bit power trip, a little bit attempting to build probable cause for the profiling-based decision he made when he first spotted her and decided to follow. And how oh-so-convenient the officer led her out of the field of view of his dash cam after coercing her out of the car. 'For safety', no doubt.

People make errors under stress. I'm a nearing-middle-age white guy, and *I* react when an officer pulls in behind me. I know my pulse spikes, adrenaline surges. And that's knowing that, statistically, I'm least likely to be profiled, to be arrested, to be convicted, etc. Doesn't matter. I know the police lie to people. It's allowed. I know the police use drug dogs to fabricate probable cause because the dogs will 'alert' based on their handlers biases. I know I have easy access to a lawyer. I know I'm less likely to be viewed as a threat to the officer and mistakenly shot while being arrested. I know that a traffic court judge is likely to be a white male. I know that if it somehow gets to a jury, I'm likely to GET an actual jury of my racial and economic peers, and I know that that racial jury makeup bodes well for me being found not guilty. All those decks stacked in my favor, still I react when I see a cop. I know my local police department (Seattle) has a Consent Decree with the US DoJ for oversight, because they got just a little too carried away beating the shit out of people for years, and that just won't be tolerated much longer if people keep noticing. Over in New York they have one too. In today's day and age, a police department made of adults with presumably at least high school graduates with at least one semester in Civics had to be told that it's not acceptable to just stop every brown skinned male and search their body. They had to be FORCED to stop it. The mayor and police departments challenged the ruling! Hell, they have two more, one for monitoring Muslims, and another for filming protestors. And there are at least 3 more major metropolitan police departments around the country under similar DoJ oversight.

I know that we would never have heard of Sandra Bland if she wasn't dead. It probably happens thousands of times a day. We never hear those stories. It doesn't filter up to the level of the public consciousness/awareness. Someone has to *die* in custody for anyone to notice. For anyone to realize that something is amiss.

I don't know how she died. It's not a stretch to imagine a level of total despair, the way she was treated in that video, yanked from her car, from her life, thrown in a cage for three days, the way people are treated by the police on average, the way minorities are treated in particular. To be caged and told you're going to court for 'assaulting an officer'. A charge fabricated out of blue sky after, AFTER any point when the officer should have ended contact with Sandra. The despair and doom that comes with that, the fucking Kafkaesque horror of being caught in a system designed to punish people? Horrible. Hell, 'horrible' doesn't even do it justice. 'Horrible' is optimistic.

But even if she took her own life, even if she wasn't 'killed' in the sense of someone wrapping fingers around her throat, or holding her up and tying her by the neck to the ceiling, even if that case... They still killed her. Humans do not do well in captivity. Put them in cages at your peril. Some percentage break. There was no reason to put her through that horror, to cage her, take away her freedom, take her away from family, friends, her means of making a living, her life for three days... Throwing me in a box for three days, that would fuck me up. I don't know anyone who wouldn't be battling against extreme duress under that condition. She might as well have been randomly abducted by violent thugs from her perspective. If that happened to me, I'd be all kinds of fucked up, even WITH my privileged view of the world that suggests that eventually, due process would free me if I only play along.

Those of you that know me, know that I'm an atheist. Or if you don't know me, you can guess by my username. I've never held truck with the Pledge of Allegiance in my life. Not once, for reasons you can guess. But I've added a reason to my list. Liberty and Justice for all is not a thing we have achieved. It should be a lament. A reminder just how insanely far we have yet to go. One more reason it's a fantasy, a lie, an abdication of reason to recite it as if it means anything at all. I don't know how anyone can look around at society today, and think there's even a grain of truth in it.

I don't know if Sandra Bland's death was a murder in the classic sense or a suicide, and I don't think we'll ever satisfactorily know and doubtful everyone will ever agree anyway, (and it actually doesn't matter which it was) but I know this; there wasn't and won't be any justice for her. Not really. If we work really hard, maybe we can build a society with law enforcement that doesn't create these situations in the first place. That would in some small way honor her life, but it's still not Justice. We've already failed.

26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I don't need Sandra Bland's death to have been a murder. There's still the question of 'justice'. (Original Post) AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 OP
I will assume murder until proven otherwise marym625 Jul 2015 #1
why are you ok with saying it's suicide without evidence of that ? JI7 Jul 2015 #2
Because it's the less horrible of the possibilities. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #4
I think his point is that, even if it was suicide, it's clear that the whole tenor of the situation el_bryanto Jul 2015 #6
That. That's what I meant. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #8
He seems to be saying that what happened is not okay either way jberryhill Jul 2015 #9
Yep. A massive injustice on it's own, before we even get to her death. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #12
But what may very well happen here jberryhill Jul 2015 #16
yep, that point is going to be missed jberryhill Jul 2015 #3
no, from her attitude in the video it was more of someone who is going to stand up JI7 Jul 2015 #5
Entirely possible, and that needs to be investigated by an independent agency. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #7
And the police will whitewash it to the best of their ability RoccoR5955 Jul 2015 #10
I don't deny that it's within the realm of possibilities. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #11
Get real RoccoR5955 Jul 2015 #23
I'm not sure what I said that is 'not real'? AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #26
Interesting Saviolo Jul 2015 #13
More oppression. nc4bo Jul 2015 #14
Excellent post. A wrongful arrest could have caused her suicide, and is a civil rights violation Yo_Mama Jul 2015 #15
Did I understand she was an Activist libodem Jul 2015 #17
An independent investigation MIGHT reveal that. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #19
Yes libodem Jul 2015 #21
Oh and those license readers RoccoR5955 Jul 2015 #24
This post jerks my tears. Mira Jul 2015 #18
I caught myself at one point this morning. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #20
He harassed her until he ruined her life. Ilsa Jul 2015 #22
Outstanding op, AC. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #25

marym625

(17,997 posts)
1. I will assume murder until proven otherwise
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:33 PM
Jul 2015

They have already proven themselves to be liars. They don't get the benefit of the doubt. SHE DOES

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
4. Because it's the less horrible of the possibilities.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jul 2015

It's assuming fewer things to fix. (But you might want to read the whole thing before zeroing in on that.)

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
6. I think his point is that, even if it was suicide, it's clear that the whole tenor of the situation
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:37 PM
Jul 2015

showed that those cops didn't care about protecting black lives. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

Bryant

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
8. That. That's what I meant.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:41 PM
Jul 2015

Maybe I buried the point too deep in text.

There are so many indicators that the entire justice system is biased from initial contact between the police and individuals, to the duration of the sentence for people convicted. It's broken. It's racist.

A system so badly engineered that it's broken on every level is going to produce outcomes like this.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
16. But what may very well happen here
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:14 PM
Jul 2015

Is that nobody is going to be happy with the results of an investigation, regardless of the outcome.

In the Otis Byrd situation, which is not at all like this one, the family did get the autopsy and FBI investigation results and now the family won't release them.

People have different fragilities and breaking points. Although a leading cause of death, it's not like most people who may have been driven to suicide by acute stress give any indication to people who've known them for a long time that they would react to those circumstances in that way.

Obviously, the published video cannot be a faithful reproduction of what was recorded. There are problems with saying it was "edited" instead of messed up by whatever software was used to convert it from the recorded format to the published format. Audio and video streams are handled independently in a lot of format conversions and there are various techniques applied by the software to deal with dropped frames, compression/decompression, and syncing the tracks up again.

The audio is continuous through the video artifacts, which means that the video "edits" would have been made to extend the video time to match a wholly-dubbed audio track. That seems like a strange thing to do, since if one is adding a fictitious audio track, then it would be a whole lot easier to match the length of time of the fake audio than to cut up the video to accommodate the fake audio. What would be the point?
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
3. yep, that point is going to be missed
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jul 2015

Because the media focus is going to be on whether it was some sort of accident, suicide or murder.

It shouldn't have gone the way it did. Period. The manner of her death is tangential to that.

But he was not there to investigate or deal with a turn signal infraction, he was fishing for more. In this case, a 'bad attitude' is sufficiently 'more'.

JI7

(89,262 posts)
5. no, from her attitude in the video it was more of someone who is going to stand up
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jul 2015

and not let them get away with this.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
7. Entirely possible, and that needs to be investigated by an independent agency.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 03:39 PM
Jul 2015

A truly independent investigation. But, even if it wasn't murder... We have so much to fix.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
10. And the police will whitewash it to the best of their ability
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 04:55 PM
Jul 2015

and they are pros at it.
To me, police are as bad, if not worse than the "criminals" that they "protect" us from.

You, along with countless others shall be duped into thinking that it was a suicide, because "the police said so."

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
11. I don't deny that it's within the realm of possibilities.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:05 PM
Jul 2015

But I want to back the train up a bit, because the whole thing went horribly wrong before the order to put out the cigarette was even issued. It was wrong before the cop even turned on his submission lights.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
23. Get real
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:01 PM
Jul 2015

The cop ONLY pulled her over because he saw a black female who failed to signal. Seeing what he felt was "easy bait" he decided to write her a ticket. Later, probably after he checked her license, and found no prior violations, he decided to give her a warning. The cop was pissed off because that was one more ticket he would have to write to keep up with his quota. After all he had to justify his existence. When the woman called him on his abuse of power, he escalated the rhetoric. Then when he said that he would light her up, it was the end.
So if you ask me, the cop is guilty as the day is long.
He should have to pay for his crime in prison, and with a fine. He should also be assessed restitution to the family of the woman's family and personally be liable for this. He should have any pension he has coming to him be given to the woman's family as well. Oh, and did I mention, he should be in jail, with the general population!

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
26. I'm not sure what I said that is 'not real'?
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:20 PM
Jul 2015

I think he profiled her from the start, you bet. He didn't see the lane change, he railed up behind her after flipping a u turn, THEN she allegedly changed lanes without a signal. He shouldn't have been following her at all.

I certainly agree it was racial profiling.

Saviolo

(3,283 posts)
13. Interesting
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:10 PM
Jul 2015

A really fascinating take on the situation. Interesting read!

Thanks for that. You've given me some things to think about.

nc4bo

(17,651 posts)
14. More oppression.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:11 PM
Jul 2015

More death, more bs from Pd's, more lip service blathering on about local, State and/or federal investigations, more mistrust, more abuse, more excuses for the inexcusable despite the power of cellphone videos and the internet.

We. Have. Grown. Very. Weary.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
15. Excellent post. A wrongful arrest could have caused her suicide, and is a civil rights violation
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:14 PM
Jul 2015

The death investigation of course must be pursued to the end, but I don't think we should let that question blind us to the appearance of official misconduct during the arrest itself.

That's the first problem, and it's a very BIG problem. And if his woman did commit suicide, it was because of the stress of being wrongfully arrested and having her rights violated.

We should stay on the arrest like a hammer. Never letting up. Making sure all the evidence is collected, and an official investigation, inquiry and resolution is carried out. We should not let the death investigation become THE ONLY ISSUE, so everybody backs off if it does seem to be suicide.

The video that she posted herself said that she had depression and PTSD. That could have led to her suicide, and if the cameras weren't tampered with, it appears that she was alone in the cell. The FBI had better be checking out those cameras to ensure that they are tamper-proof.

BUT THAT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. What already has been posted on the internet seems to show official misdeeds. AND IT IS THE ARREST ITSELF which put her in that situation.

If she was murdered, that's another whole crime. But let's not forget what seems to be the first one.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
17. Did I understand she was an Activist
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 05:50 PM
Jul 2015

Of some kind. Were they expecting her or was she targeted from the get go?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
19. An independent investigation MIGHT reveal that.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:17 PM
Jul 2015

I know my local PD has automated license plate readers on their cars, that would make spotting someone doing nothing wrong, and not trying to hide, moving around openly, very easy. Popup on the computer screen, name, car etc.

In my state, it'll even inform the officer if the person has a Concealed Pistol License.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
24. Oh and those license readers
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 08:04 PM
Jul 2015

can be used to track people. Here's a link to an article that explains how they are being used to track the general population: https://www.aclu.org/feature/you-are-being-tracked

Big Brother IS, indeed watching you, and me, and everyone!

Mira

(22,380 posts)
18. This post jerks my tears.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:02 PM
Jul 2015

Really.
But - honestly - I do not think she committed suicide. Too much spunk in her, and too much education and knowledge.
Something bad happened here, and it was not purposeful suicide as I see it.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
20. I caught myself at one point this morning.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:20 PM
Jul 2015

I thought to myself 'I hope that this was just a suicide'. Then I hated myself for a bit.

But it's so much more than just how it ended.

Ilsa

(61,697 posts)
22. He harassed her until he ruined her life.
Wed Jul 22, 2015, 06:26 PM
Jul 2015

A bullshit stop.
A bullshit arrest.
A bullshit charge.
And they ruined her life with it, just like the police do with other people of color every day.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»I don't need Sandra Bland...