...so iconically embodied.

His murder was a kind of "tipping point" for the public expression of that grief. The question is whether it will just dissipate, or lead to any kind of tangible changes...

and bribing someone at the Zoo to let you shoot their lion. I am sure that it will come to that.

Every time I see a photo of Cecil (I can't look at any film clips, because I can't reconcile what he was with how and why he died), I see his head on a wall and his skin on a floor. I pull a Jimmy Kimmel about 5 times a day because I cannot fathom that kind of cruelty.

Now we know that another asshole American doctor has poached. WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?

Donating to wildcru.org. helps. I guess.

At least we have one another here, if that doesn't sound too sappy.

The people dying for being black is happening every day, so often that we are in overwhelm. It's not that people don't care...many many people care, but when you are overwhelmed with so much grief and frustration, you can often have to shut out part of the noise or go crazy.

It's why local poverty means more to many people than kids going hungry in Africa. Most people can't really do much to fix it and they just can't handle it all. They try to take on what they can.

unarmed people getting shot by the police, just for the crime of being black in America.

Humans can be outraged by several tragedies at the same time.

Nobody else gets to pick what I'll be outraged about.

When you rally over Cecil you become part of an international reaction that might actually promote change. Cecil has become the face of a world wide problem of humans intentionally driving other species into extinction. This behavior is short sighted and morally wrong.

Within the US it is so very different. I no longer believe that massive positive changes can be created within the US. When you stop to think about it, there are more people who qualify to register to vote then what makes up the 1%, Conservative Christians, Tea Partiers and so on so, in theory the masses should be able to stand up and fight back at the ballot box on what is taking place with in the US. Within the states, when a state legislature refuses to take action there is always the citizin initiated petition. Unfortunately that is not what it taking place because somehow the forces that are in reality against the masses are able to consistently con the masses into voting against their own best interests.

You are only just now starting to see the wake up call to the way blacks have been treated in the country for decades but the hue and cry has not reached anywhere loud enough to promote coast to coast change. Some of the incidents have been beyond blatant yet, you don't see a universal outcry within our own country. There is not even a universal outcry on the issue of ongoing police brutality. I see these incidents over and over and can only thinkg WTF is wrong with you society? Blacks in the US are like the Jews in pre-WWII and WWII Germany. There are uber Christian Conservatives who woule like to treat homosexuals like they did gypsies and other ethnic groups during pre-WWII and WWII Germany.

Despite continued mass shootings as well as children having access to loaded weapons with tragic results we haven't even begun to become outraged enough to produce any real changes where guns are concerned. There is so much wrong with this country that it is hard to know where to even start yet there are those cheerleaders running around chanting We are no. 1. We are the best. While we may be no. 1 and the best, it is generally not in areas that are admirable.

The only thing that keeps us on top is our sheer military might. Without our military do you really think anybody in the world would pay us the least bit of attention? We have lost the moral high ground that we used to have. More and more countries view the US with either fear or disgust. We are becoming what our parents and grandparents feared when they looked at WWII Germany and the USSR. And our military might is what is helping to destroy us. Historically, when counties put way too much money in wars and their military they go into decline. What aided the crumble and break up of the USSR was that they could not keep up with our military spending. The UK used to be the world super power and lost that status after way too many wars. We rose up due to our industrial complex which is now gone (with the exception of the military industry).

something to deserve being shot and killed whether at the hands of police or someone like George Zimmerman.

Even if they are shown video after video after video or testimony after testimony after testimony showing they were killed for selling cigarettes, jaywalking or just smoking a cigarette (boy we sure are tough on them when ciggies are involved, they cant sell them, they cant smoke them).


I think many people, btw, can be sincerely concerned about both.

But many people are not.

Cecil represented a balance in nature that many good people are struggling through hard work to maintain. His presence and that of the other animals on the reserve allowed for the preservation of a world that continues to shrink. And then this horrible man comes along and for reasons most people can't understand, kills him so that he can hang his head on a wall in an old schoolhouse on a farm in Minnesota where he can sit and look at it while he drinks cocktails. The whole concept of Trophy Hunting is twisted. These animals living in Africa and all around the world need to be treasured not murdered for one person's sick pleasure.

Thanks for sharing it.

All the ones you list (except I'm not white so I don't feell lumped into some category with that poacher). I just despise people who harm anyone or anything just because they feel like it I am always merciful and sympathetic, except in cases like this. Didn't need to be a lion and the killer didn't need to be American for me to Call this an abomination.

And to see someone be so cavalier and irresponsible as this dentist was -- someone who seems to be a present-day incarnation of the worst excesses and abuses of our imperial/colonial past -- it's almost more than we can bear.

But you know, passiveporcupine, a little good news would be a welcome change.

Peace.

I didn't make this comment in relation to the relative reactions towards police violence towards and ill-treatment of African Americans. In fact, I have posted and commented frequently on the subject here and elsewhere. I participated in a number of the demonstrations here in NYC in the wake of the killing of Eric Garner. I am not more outraged over Cecil than I am over the many incidents of police abuse and murder, particularly of African Americans. But I am capable of more than one outrage at a time, and I am not particularly interested in participating in a pissing match between two issues, both of which I am passionate about and both of which are deserving of outrage.

In fact, I would suggest that the two issues are very much related. Note that in my original post, I referred to the "imperial/colonial mindset of European and American societies for much of the past 600 years concerning the biological, botanical, mineral and even human riches of the other countries of the world." That part in bold was a reference to the historic presumption by European societies, and the various societies that arose from them such as those of North America -- that they were superior to, and thus entitled to exploit to the point of enslavement, other peoples of the world. Most of the racist attitudes held in this country can be traced to efforts of white American society to justify to itself a system of chattel slavery based exclusively on race.

I don't understand how anyone can presume to know the relative degree of another person's outrage over one issue as opposed to another. I think it is neither fair nor accurate to say that people are 'more outraged' over the death of Cecil the lion than they are over the deaths of African Americans at the hands of police. I don't think the relative degree of a person's outrage can be accurately measured. What I think would be a far more accurate statement is that it appears that more people are outraged over the death of Cecil the lion than over the deaths of African Americans at the hands of police. But that is a very different metric -- the basis of which is well known to virtually everyone here. We know that many people in this country -- indeed, far too many -- are indifferent, or in some cases even hostile to, issues related to race relations, so this shouldn't exactly come as a surprise.

Anger over injustice is not a zero-sum game. An expression of anger at one injustice does not imply a diminution of outrage over another

If it wasn't a response to all the angst about how we seem to care more for Cecil than black lives?

The timing is odd to say the least.

I'm not saying you are wrong about why we feel anger and outrage at trophy hunting...I do too...but I also feel anger and outrage at what is happening to minorities in this country, and I understand that the outrage over Cecil does seem to dominate the forum, where the many stories of black lives are usually pretty short lived. That's why I say it's more about vollume and overwhelm as to why the black lives lost to police are not covered as extensively, and the fact that there are people who will side with the police instead of seeing the trajedy of what happened to the victim and the race.

I don't understand how anyone can presume to know the relative degree of another person's outrage over one issue as opposed to another.

. . . If I had been intending my post as a response to the other thread, I would either have posted it as a reply in that thread, or I would have referenced in this post. My post was a response to a question raised in the ThinkProgress article, namely, the question of why people got so upset about the death of this particular animal. I explained in my opening paragraph that I didn't find the explanation offered by the article to be especially satisfying, and so attempted a further contextualization of it.

As for the timing, that is merely a function of the fact that the two threads referenced the same issue, an issue that happens to be in the news at the moment.

Seriously, lay off the shaming.

I'm trying to understand and explain why I think the Cecil outrage seems to be more potent than the BLM outrage. Maybe mostly for myself, but maybe also it will help some of our AA members understand that this doesn't mean we don't care about them.

but in response to the rest of your post, haven't I seen you speak up in threads where AA members have voiced their concern over the outrage of Cecil over black lives? It seems I recall you saying you care about both. I might be wrong.

And the last two sentences confuse me. I agree that it appears a lot of people care more about endangered animals than people, but if they knew the people, I suspect they would care just as much. It's just impossible to keep that much outrage and sorrow in your head all the time. You don't normally think of endangered species as individuals, but a group, so it's easier to aim your outrage at one focus point. With humans, there are just too many places it can be soaked up. So while some people may have a focus on say one nation, one race, or one tribe or community that is not their own, many people tend to focus mostly on their own community and social connections and shut off a lot of the rest.

While I think most DUers do care as much about BLM as Cecil, they may not display it obviously. I do agree that many people (and some here) still don't care about black lives, or Hispanics or other minorities, because of bigotry or racism. And that is why there have been so many comments here about the difference in outrage.

to me, it comes down to the notion that it makes as little sense comparing Cecil to BLM as it does comparing BLM to climate change or social security.

there's so much qualitative difference that it's hard to draw anything meaningful from the different reactions

but unfortunately that is not the way the AA community is seeing it.

Don't worry...the more we talk things through like this, the more clarity there is for everyone.

on Twitter?

I don't do twitter or facebook.

Did you read Bravenak's thread for Bernie supporters. I thought she touched on it there too, but I could be remembering wrong.

every post

I have seen white posters talking about it based on what they saw from black twitter activists.

to me, seems like "what about police on black crime" in response to Cecil outrage is analytically akin to "what about black on black violence" in response to outrage over police on black violence.

police violence towards black folks is a separate issue from black folks' violence against other black folks, with it's own causes and its own solutions

similarly, animal cruelty and conservation are entirely different issues from police violence towards black folks. It's nonsensical to compare the two as if one bears any meaning on the other

both are attempts to change the subject

I don't share it.

Why are rich people allowed to do this shit? Go into a country and kill these majestic animals, just because they have money! The rich are the ones who perpetuate the need for animal skins to walk around with. Poor people cannot afford ivory, mink coats, alligator bags or shoes. The rich need to look around and figure out what they are doing to society and the animal world as a whole. Am not keeping my fingers crossed, because the rich only care about themselves.

Among their own kind, other species, or anything in the natural environment. Humans kill when threatened, for the sport of killing, and out of pure hate. They only claim respect for those willing to die out of mystical or actual acts of self sacrifice.

Even with self awareness of the finality of death they pursue kiling and constantly pursue death.

that people kill other living beings for sport. I don't really take colonial history into account because it's not that deep to me.

compelling argument against egotistical, 'devil take the hindmost', US-style capitalism. How many poor families in the US, never mind the official Third World could be housed by the money spent by these oafs on their infantile posturing. Families living in subways and culverts - presumably if they're lucky! The US as a country should now be twinned with Brazil.

And, no! 'The poor you have always with you', will not do as a justification at.all. Those hunters are hardly Christ-figures! THE POOR ARE!

Makes me want to watch him again. I had moved over to CBS and Rose. CBS crew were iffy about the subject. Where is their humanity and ethics? They must be too afraid to speak out or don't get it. Losing Rose...back to Joe.

go to a US professional after this, I will either travel to a university for the work or go abroad. Not going to contribute to some hit man. Fuck that.

Or even hunters at all?

Maybe instead of taking advantage of the services of a good local dentist, you could do some social network searches of dentists in your area to see if you see them posing proudly with dead animals first. I think it's pretty rare, statistically.

I did see one Dentist here who it wouldn't surprise me now if I found out he was a trophy hunter...because of his personality. The one I have now...no way.

If you live in a rural hunting area, you may end up with a Dentist who hunts, but that isn't usually the same as trophy hunters.

nt

though it was thanks to an imported "developmentalist" model

I think the author is on to something. I think people hate him because he so embodies the 1%. The incredible selfishness, callousness, and entitlement so evident in this jerk rightfully infuriates people who are just sick of these people. Palmer, like his peers, believes that he deserves to be able to do whatever he wants, get whatever he wants, and buy whatever he wants. So he goes around killing animals for the sick thrill of it and collecting a warped trophy of the "accomplishment". He callously exploits the poverty of third world peoples to rob them of endangered animals in violation of their laws. He sexually harasses women because he's such a selfish entitled asshole he should be able to have what he wants, period. He's a morally bankrupt individual and another example of how wealth so easily corrupts. He perfectly represents the 1%.

When you think about it, this guy essentially told an entire nation that he didn't give a shit about their laws, customs, or efforts to protect endangered species. He also said "fuck you" to Oxford University and that their decade long research project was meaningless the minute he disabled Cecil's GPS tracker. All he saw was the trophy and the bragging rights. Nothing else mattered.

Dr. Palmer is an absolute mad man, he is the upper 5% and who the GOP caters to. He is their base. When you have Ted Nugent on your side, that says just about everything you need to know.