If he wins the election, we will congratulate he and his Church of Latter Day Saints on their good fortune. What's good for Mormonism is good for America.

"If he wins the election, we will congratulate he and his Church of Latter Day Saints on their good fortune. What's good for Mormonism is good for America."

he was Bishop in a faith that held blacks to be sub-human. It was a great honor to rise to that level of the church and be saving all true humans' souls (but not sub-humans').

Your ignorance of actual history says it all... "sub-human" must be something you made up... to increase the impact of a falsehood...

The first black person was baptized two years after the Church’s founding in 1830. The Mormons started to ordain men of black African heritage into the priesthood the first one in 1836, even to the office of a Seventy, under the Apostles. Then the United States government and particular non-Mormon state officials in Missouri and Illinois started to persecute the Mormons for doing so. Which other church in America (or any other social institution in America for that matter) was putting blacks in leadership positions over whites in the late 1830s to 1840s? And black members remained with the church throughout the priesthood ban...

Historically the “mark of Cain” or “curse of Ham” came from the Bible and was a commonly accepted concept of the early 16th to the 19th century Christian religions of Europeans and Americans regarding people of black skin - look at your Baptist churches into the 1960’s. And though there has been “opinions” spoken by a few LDS church members about the “mark of Cain” or “curse of Ham” being the main reasons for skin color being black, it is not and never has been taught as LDS church doctrine. The Civil Rights movement occurred in the 1960s, culminating in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Historians know that the “Act” didn’t change centuries-old bigotry, prejudice, and segregation (voluntary and involuntary) overnight. In fact, it was not until 1995 that the Southern Baptist Convention officially renounced its "racist roots." A number of Democrats had strong ties to the creation of the KKK in the United States, does that mean that all Democrats are racist and teach racism?

Today there are over 1 million Mormons of black African heritage worldwide. While African-Americans make up just 3 percent of Mormons in the United States, according to a 2009 Pew Research Center study, they make up 9 percent of Mormon converts… In Africa, now at just over 300,000 Latter-day Saints, church membership has grown by almost 10,000 new members per year, and they now have 3 LDS Temples there, and are building 2 more.

1978, discriminated openly, proudly and unapologetically against blacks. Romney didn't have a problem with church doctrine. He's therefore a racist or a racist-enabler. Saying others did the same thing hardly excuses it, except maybe if you're feeling a bit defensive about your own racism.

Did you have to post 10 times just to respond to me? Pathetic.

serve your country first and then do your missionary work and I bet that's what a lot of Mormons did then. Religion is a bullshit excuse to discriminate and I'm sick of giving people a pass on being biased about anything due to religion. i am not convinced that the good that religions do is necessarily balanced by the harm and division that they cause. So no, his religion is not off limits.

Do you think if he were a Muslim that he would get a free pass on his beliefs?

That means all of the Abrahamic faiths are fair game, which is fine with me. If he was a Muslim he would not get a free pass. Hell, Obama isn't even a Muslim and he gets attacked for it.

then want to act it's terrible when you question them about it. Fuck that. When they keep their beliefs and their dogma out of politics then maybe nobody will be interested. You reap what you sow, right?

Some of those problems date back to the 1970s. As Mitt might say, there haven't been any issues with Mormons and racism or sexism in almost 300 years.

We shouldn't put down Mitt's Mormonism. On the contrary we should congratulate Mormons on transcending their reputation and finally getting a presidential candidate. A vote for Romney for president is a vote to elevate Mormonism to the same level of political power and religious influence as, for example, the Southern Baptists or Catholics. This election is mainstream Christianity's chance to vote in a new member.

"As Mitt might say, there haven't been any issues with Mormons and racism or sexism in almost 300 years."

??

Joe Smith didn't create the religion until the 1830s.

We were waiting for the second "Star Wars" movie and watching John Belushi in "Animal House" when the Mormons dropped their anti-black position. Racism that Mitt Romney had been teaching for more than a decade.

Romney will win about 95% of the Mormon vote, in fact all those millions being spent on Mormon ads on your TV, help Bishop Romney's campaign.

re-read their Jonathan Swift, methinks. Or maybe your satire needs to become a bit more pointed?

"transcending their reputation"

You are somewhat correct, as that is what some LDS choose to do...

Towards the end of Vietnam I joined the Army in August of 1974, got out in April of 1978, volunteered in June of 1978 to serve a mission till July of 1980, and continued to serve as a weekend warrior from August 1980 until August 2001. My Father served in WW II and my son served in Iraq.

Freedom has never, ever been free... those of us who have served, know that...

I recall the facts of several different Presidents on both sides of the political fence, who found ways to avoid military service or serving in a war zone...

as for deferments from the military during Vietnam, the military always had the right to turn them down...

The men in Romney's direct line, he, his dad, his sons, granddad, great grand dad and so on, all the way back to the day they signed up to help create Mormonism with Joe Smith, have a rule to never serve America in uniform.

but now they call him a Muslim. It seems they are a bit confused as to what exactly Obama's faith really is.

At least we all know where Mitt stands. He believes that his underwear has magical powers.

LDS for short, or CoJCoLDS.

And being a LDS Bishop isn't really that big of a deal, compared to other religions... no extensive training, courses, education, etc., because they are a faith of lay clergy.

Lower case d. If I'm incorrect, I'll eat my Book of Mormon.

And I feel Romney's religion is fair game and an important issue that should be talked about.

The church changed the way they present it to all uppercase in the 90s

I agree religious beliefs are fair game, as long as they pertain to how he views policy. (Same for any religion and party, politician)

need to be discussed.

He has been trained since birth, he has been a Priest, a foreign Missionary, a Bishop, a Stake President over all Bishops in his region, and he will rise much higher within the religion.

Neither is the LDS "seminary", it's basically 1 hour daily bible study (and Book of Mormon, D & C) in high school. "Priest" is another meaningless title, if you're 17, and in good standing, bingo, you're a pretty much automatically a "Priest". (When you're 12, you become a "Deacon", then later, a "Teacher"...see a pattern of big titles emerging?) Being a Missionary basically is a rite of passage to become a glorified door-knocker, and also makes you an "Elder". "Stake President" means you handle bureaucratic duties over a small group of people, like a deanery (there are roughly 3,000 of them across the globe, some smaller than a mile wide, usually less than 5,000 members total). Oh, and he's also a "High Priest", another meaningless title, probably a "Patriarch", too.

Now, if he was one of the "Seventy", that's kind of high up there, similar to a cardinal in the Catholic church, but "Bishop" and even "Stake President" are mostly ceremonial, temporary, duties.

but sending Priests to foreign countries as missionaries entails a little more than a few Sunday school classes, as does being Bishop and then as a head over other Bishops.

Bishop Romney is expected to become a member of the "Seventy", he is the Mormon religions, 'Golden Boy' groomed from infancy by his Bishop father, and the religion.

The Romneys have transferred many tens of millions of dollars into the religion.

Mitt tithes at least 10%, and his GOP Presidential father, gave 19% of his income to the religion.

It does not work that way - nearly all the Seventy are related and become members in their late 50s. Romney is not related and he's too old.

Mitt will gain a higher position within the religion, he is already a powerful part of the secretive inner circle, the elite, the temple Mormons.

Temple Mormons are the only Mormons allowed into those multimillion dollar palaces that most Americans think are merely overly grandiose churches for ALL Mormons. Normal Mormons are forbidden inside the Palaces.

Will he fulfill the 'White Horse Prophecy"? who knows?

LOL, that's funny. I can't tell if this is extending parody, or a sincere belief.

The first time I went into the temple, you know what the "secretive inner circle" required?

That I pay 10% of my $0 income (I was 12 or 14 or something, I forget), and that I go to church.

It's a really, REALLY, low bar to get in, and "sealing" wasn't much different: Marry a Mormon, go through a ritual, keep going to church, keep tithing.

To keep a temple recommend, don't commit felonies, keep tithing, keep going to church, try to follow the faith, and you're in.

That's it.

Normal Mormons are allowed, and encouraged, to go. Often as a tourist destination.

About 15 to 20 % of Mormons make it to "Temple Mormons", they are a breed apart, the 'elites', the "Temples" are for them, not for normal Mormons.

Ann Romney's own parents were not allowed to witness her wedding, they had to wait outside of the Temple.

To become a "Temple" Mormon one has to be awarded a 'temple recommend', Bishop Mitt Romney was one of those gate keepers, and he had the authority to verify that the Mormon subject was telling the truth about giving 10% of their income to the religion, verification can go as far as the Bishop thinks it needs to go, including tax records.

Let me make a guess at how many Catholics, Baptists, or Lutherans (or whatever) actually go to church *and* tithe every week.... I'm guessing it's a similar (if vague and suspicious) number.

"Ann Romney's own parents were not allowed to witness her wedding, they had to wait outside of the Temple."

They probably weren't going to church, and tithing, every week, if they were even members.

"To become a "Temple" Mormon one has to be awarded a 'temple recommend', Bishop Mitt Romney was one of those gate keepers, and he had the authority to verify that the Mormon subject was telling the truth about giving 10% of their income to the religion, verification can go as far as the Bishop thinks it needs to go, including tax records."

I am guessing you have never been through the process yourself.

They can *ask* for the records, if they want to pry. Those records are based on *reported* income, not actual income. If you refuse to provide the records, you may still get a rubber stamp, or you can falsify the records, if you're in the mood for that.

They have no real power, no power to audit, no power to enforce, other than going on a hunch. If they piss off enough members, they get replaced (which happens with some regularity, anyways).

Only Mormonism forces one to pay to become one of the privileged, allowed into the 'fancy church'.

Bishop Romney was one of those gate keepers, and then he became like a Catholic Bishop, overseeing other others.

Ann Romney's own parents were forbidden inside the temple of the elites, to witness her wedding, just as normal Mormons were forbidden entrance into the holy temple for the elites.

The Bishop can require you to comply, or reject you from becoming a part of the inner circle of the secretive elites who the majestic Temples are built for.

A Mormon man does not become God unless he is a Temple Mormon, women do not become Gods.

"Only Mormonism forces one to pay to become one of the privileged, allowed into the 'fancy church'. "

Scientology does so as well, and a Catholic isn't going to get into the papal chambers for "being a fan". Most churches charge. Many charge millions.

Don't believe me? Go to your church. Ask to see the ultimate leaders. Take two pennies (the widow's mite, this is actual christian scripture). See how it works out.

At the Vatican. Because they asked me to.
And I know of no other church or temple that refuses entry to family members at weddings if the family is not of that faith. At the churches I grew up in the 'ultimate leaders' were the pastor and some members, any of whom would and still do speak to anyone who cones to them without any charge of any kind, members, non members, anyone. The pastors would visit any sick person, preform any rite, council anyone who asked. That's how it is supposed to work.

Anybody telling you otherwise is trying to hide behind obfuscation.

Family *aren't* automatically allowed into the temple, unless their recommendation is current. So, some people choose multiple ceremonies if they want a religious sealing ceremony, a legal wedding, and a public reception.

Bully on you for not giving to the RCC, they're obscenely wealthy.

As far as the churches you grew up with, how did they pay their electrical bills?

""Most churches charge. Many charge millions. "" that sounds like something Mormons would be taught.


That is bizarre and silly, Christian churches charge nothing, a Christian does not even need to belong to a church to fully be a Christian, a Christian can go into any Christian church anywhere, of any denomination, money is NEVER required.

In Mormonism it is required, and enforced, or you don't become one of the many Mormon Gods.

You don't even get to go into the beautiful temple palaces, that is only for the 15% or so of the generous and the elite, and even that is temporary and has to be maintained, or else you get kicked back to the 85% of the Mormon outsiders.

I've been to hundreds, or many denominations, and they have all kinds of money schemes.

You can even go to a Mormon church and not pay, if you don't want to.

You cannot get sealed in the temple, and get the *chance* to become a god, if you don't "tithe", that much is true.

Your last sentence seems to indicate that you realize temple recommends are temporary, and not a condition of being in the church.... but you don't seem to get that you only need one, once in your life, if you happen to feel like it.

No money, no becoming a God, the money is mandatory or you do not ascend to the high heaven of Mormonism.

You were right to mention Scientology before.

LDS endowments are part of the god deal, and those endowments require temple, which requires tithing. So yes, if you want the "god thing", tithing is a very small part of it.

You don't need to pay that to get into "high heaven", though. You can be a buddhist monk, never pay a cent, or never even be a mormon, and still get there.

You are confusing heaven and godhood, those aren't the same thing.

The Celestial Kingdom has three degrees within it for instance.

The celestial kingdom is the highest of three heavens or heavenly kingdoms.

Joseph Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three "heavens or degrees".

The top level within the highest heaven will consist of individuals who will eventually become "exalted" and will be permitted to live "the kind of life God lives" as literal gods.

The terrestrial kingdom is the middle of what are believed to be three heavens.

The telestial kingdom is the lowest of what are believed to be three heavens.

Are you assuming equal distributions or something?

Recognizing that everybody goes to heaven, and past posts about "denying women in heaven" are total nonsense?

Just learning more about the topic, and sharing what you are learning?

Tithing is mandatory, or else you get removed from the real heaven and have to settle for lesser heaven.

Christians are all equal and no money is required.

Mitt Romney believes he will become a God, the voters should be told that.

Yes.

Have we settled on that point?

Does Mitt Rmoney believe he is in a faith where people have the potential of being godly, and possibly even becoming a god?

Yes.

Can we settle on that, too?

"Christians are all equal and no money is required." is laughable, just look at any church, and ask who pays the bills for it, and how it was paid for.*

*Exemption: Christians who do not attend a church, or have any paid minister or clergy. This was the original christian faith, but was wiped out, for the most part, about 1700 years ago. Turns out to not be very profitable, so churches replaced them, in often violent and brutal ways, over the last 1700 years.

Last edited Tue May 22, 2012, 02:43 AM - Edit history (1)

No payment is required as in Mormonism.

As a Christian you give if you want, you are not segregated, or have to settle for a third rate heaven, or are kept out of the fanciest, secretive churches.

Nobody ever knows if you give or don't unless you make it known somehow, which would be very unseemly in a christian church.

That is why donations are not tracked and recorded and monitored as in Mormonism, where if you don't give enough, or at all, you will forever be frozen out and even perhaps excommunicated.

Bishop Romney did his share of excommunications, he also was required to verify that you were paying heavily enough to join the 15% of the 'real' Mormons who get to use the palace Churches (temples).

As a pauline christian, you are expected to give some of your money to the church. If you are following the acts of christ, you sell everything and give it all to the communal church. Not a lot of folks do that anymore, but it's right there in their scriptures.

Nobody actually really tracks the money as intrensely as you seem to believe, but hey, assume there's some mega conspiracy.

The title is 10%, or less, if that is what you can afford to give ("Widow's mite" ring a bell? If you re a christian who reads the bible, it should). A bishop interviews you, asks if you're current, and stamps away.... I did it, pretty much everybody in my church group did it, I'd say 100% of us got temple recommends, unless we were going to jail.

But keep speaking as if you know anything about it, apparently having never done it yourself. It's becoming quite amusing.

I'm also "defending" the religion of the Democratic Majority Leader by speaking honestly and truthfully about it.

and anti-Protestantism, all in an attempt to deceive about Mormonism.

You keep heavily implying that you had a temple recomend, is that true?

I talk about the Paulines because it's what most americans know as "christians", and the religions most americans are familiar with. (If you want to talk Arius christians, or Gospel Christians, or Gnostics, we can do all that too, mormons are a shade Arius, FWIW).

I can also defend quite a few faiths as needed (see my swipes at "Catholic cannibalism" being an example of religious slander based on selective interpretation of theology and practice).

Yes, I got a temple recommend. No biggie. An interview, some paperwork, and buy some white clothes... I think that was about it.

How do you know, and why do you care, about it? Is it because you've been fed some (rather false) claptrap insinuating that only 15% of mormons get one?

Mormons are well trained, and a temple Mormon is one of the elites, a part of the more secretive, better trained cadre of the religion.

The ones who are allowed into the palaces, and conduct the secret ceremonies.

My instincts were pretty good, you haven't criticized Hinduism and Islam, why would a Mormon, they aren't the enemy to Mormonism, the Christians are, and naturally you have kept them under attack while defending and concealing Mormonism.

Even the Mormon religion admits that a temple recommend is rare, and only applies to between 15% and less than 20%, and paying is part of the deal, and you know that it is.

To be "elite", I guess, is incredibly easy, then. If you have a year to spare, you, too, can get one (as some journalists have done, just to see the same "secrets" available at their local library).

Which kind of contradicts the word "elite", but whatever.

Hinduism and Islam aren't (agruably, Allah is the same god to Jews, Christians, and Muslims) Arbramic faiths, but you are basically running a standard "Blood libel" game, if you want to stay in one child the Arbramic faiths:
1. Pick an enemy.
2. Distort and exaggerate a belief.
3. Claim being "attacked" by them for the exaggerated belief.

Christians aren't the enemy of Mormons, as they worship Christ as part of the godhead, but they don't *replace* God with worshiping Christ (or his mom, for that matter). Such beliefs caused (and still cause) quite the schisms over the years.

"Even the Mormon religion admits that a temple recommend is rare, and only applies to between 15% and less than 20%"

You keep repeating this, without offering any evidence. I am guessing you aren't distinguishing between "having a current recommend" and "getting one, but one bothering to keep it up, because it's no big deal for anybody to get one".

"It is surprising for some to learn that LDS temples are not used for worship services, nor are they open to the public as one would expect a church building to be. In fact, fewer than 20 percent of adult Mormons themselves hold a valid 'temple recommend' which is required to gain entrance into a temple."


About 85% of Mormons are forbidden into the true, secret world of Mormonism.

Mormons are taught to lie, to "serve milk before the meat" to potential converts, to keep from freaking them out and sounding crazy.

It takes very little effort to get a recommend, but if you aren't going to the temple, it's not an important credential.

As far as "true, secret world", you can read all about it in the congressional record, or any of the hundreds, and hundreds, of books written about the "secrets" that anybody with a library card has access to.

....No temple recommend needed.

You are saying that breaches of that secrecy have been done, but what kind of defense is that?

Why waste time with pretending that means the activities are not secret?

How does that work?

They don't talk about it, but that doesn't make it secret, any more than talking about my bowel movements is a "secret".

It is disturbing to have to wade through Romney talking point after Romney talking point about the most sexist of religions. Joseph Smith had over 50 females/wives, down to age 14.

Just like a military secret, an expose, or a leak from an ex-Mormon would of course be public, but it is a public revelation about a deeply protected secret.

Until 1990 one took an oath including the willingness to slit one's throat before revealing the secrets of the temple, the oath is less bloody now, but still is one of total secrecy.

Although you are Mormon, we both know that you are not even allowed into the temple, that is only for the 15% of the holiest Mormons, Mitt Romney type Mormons.

Oh, and Solomon had over 300 "wives", and yet, Christianity and Judaism is getting a pass?

The throat slitting is an oath taken by George Washington, and many of our other founding fathers. It's not an original Mormon thing, it a masonic thing.

I've been in the temple, if I wanted to stop drinking, smoking, and started going back to church, it's easy enough to go back to the temple. There's no exclusivity to it, at all.

Of course, that deflates the paranoid "secret society" delusion, so it's hard for people living in a delusion to grasp.

Why keep spouting things like that, you know very well that what goes on in the temple is secret.

I know Mormons are taught that truth is to be avoiding with gentiles, but you implied that you might not still be a member of the most sexist church in America.

Do you truly believe that Mitt Romney is going to become a God? Or that any person will?

Not that it's relevant.

I haven't identified as Mormon for a good 25 years. If you don't want to believe that you exist, that's up to you, I guess?

(Crossing the streams, heh...)

If this is how you display indifference to Mormonism and insults to Bishop Romney, then it is no wonder that you were among the most devoted of Mormons at one time.

"You're with us or against us" is republican's philosophy.

Especially if being blatantly dishonest is the chosen line of attack, then you're into Faux news territory.

"the most devoted of Mormons" totally makes me laugh, though, I guess that's fed by your illusion that getting a temple recommend is somehow "special" in some way.

were all related. Thanks for the info.

Time to get ready for church. Be back in about 3 hours.

"We have more corporate types becoming GAs." This needs to be researched. Who are they and what position do they hold with what corporations. Thanks so much, FreeState.

"Priests" are not sent to foreign countries, they are far too young, as a LDS church "Priest" is still not even old enough to vote, and in many places, drive, or own property.

"Elders" are sent. When they are 18, they are old enough to be an "Elder".

"Bishops" don't do a lot of speeches, set policy, or really a whole lot. They sit in front of the church, act as a figurehead, push paper, and stamp things. If anything, a heartless man like Rmoney is *perfect* for the job, as it's often heartless, thankless, and bureaucratic, just like being a vulture capitalist is... and a Stake President even more so.

"Bishop Romney is expected to become a member of the "Seventy","

First I've heard of it. Seems like a bad choice, theologically, as it might run afoul of 100 years of wisdom/teaching about staying out of politics (loosely followed in Utah, much more tightly followed in, oh, Russia).

"Mitt tithes at least 10%, and his GOP Presidential father, gave 19% of his income to the religion."

Maybe on some paper somewhere.

LDS accountants make for *incredible* tax attorneys, if you don't like paying taxes. To keep in good standing in the church, you know how they audit your 10%? They ask you if you're doing it. That's *it*. You go in, somebody asks you if you're doing it, you answer. Oh, and "investment income" isn't required, theologically, to count, as you can believe you "already tithed" on it, before you invested (opinions do differ, but guess how Rmoney opines).

You know how the IRS audits it? Guess. Go ahead, guess how much power the IRS has to demand religious financial records.

The Bishop can demand proof of tithing, he is not obligated to give a temple recommend.

As far as Priesthood "Before beginning their mission, prospective male missionaries are usually ordained to the office of an Elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood (if they do not hold this office already). "

Black men are no longer excluded from this, the religion dropped it's anti black racism around the time that "Animal House" came out.

"The Bishop can demand proof of tithing, he is not obligated to give a temple recommend. "

And the person asking is not required to be truthful, and the Bishop cannot tell if they are.

"As far as Priesthood "Before beginning their mission, prospective male missionaries are usually ordained to the office of an Elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood (if they do not hold this office already). " "

Yup. 18 and already an "Elder".

"Black men are no longer excluded from this, the religion dropped it's anti black racism around the time that "Animal House" came out."

Black men were among the church's earliest founding members, and were ordained as Elders in the 1800's, then not ordained during a wave of 1900's US racism, and are now being ordained again, which started up again about the time (IIRC) when my school was desegregated by the federal government.

Refusing to lie is not "casual Romney sales people", it's trying to be truthful and honest.

Yep, Priesthood.

"As far as Priesthood "Before beginning their mission, prospective male missionaries are usually ordained to the office of an Elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood (if they do not hold this office already). "

Melchizedek Priesthood

Yeah, it's all racist and sexist bullshit, but the big churches hate people.

Especially minorities that cannot give them money.

Wait, the churches waited until the late 70's to do that?

Romney's family was not merely going to a non integrated church somewhere, they were following a RELIGION of racism.

The religion is still sexist in a way that gives the word a whole new meaning, they don't just sit apart like Orthodox Jews, but men become Gods and decide if women go to heaven.

Being a mormon male doesn't mean you automatically become a god, that's laughably wrong.

Dunno where you get "decide if women go to heaven", all women, men, everybody goes to heaven.

He's lived a life of profit and self indulgence. Strike #1.
He refuses to atone for all of his sins. Strike #2.
He's lied constantly throughout his life. Millions of strikes there.

You don't get to be a god just because you go to church and tithe. You basically have to live a life without sin (or with great repentance) to even *qualify*. Anti-mormons tend to make a big deal of this, and overstate how the doctrine works, but almost zero mormons have ever had even the slightest of chances of ever reaching that level.

personally met with Mitt and approved his presidential run.

Bishop and Stake President, Romney is at the top of Mormonism as far as holiness and dedication to Mormonism, and the radical republican Mormon religion and church members adore him.

Obama easily won the Catholic vote, but lost the Mormon vote by a HUGE margin.

This time the republicans will win about 95% of the Mormon vote.

If the "top" is 75,000 people with his exact same credentials, sure.

Doesn't seem very "top" to me if 75,000 people are just the same as you.

I do think Rmoney will get a huge Mormon vote share, along with all the other people (Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, etc.) who put god before the poor, needy, and helpless.

Romney is much more powerful and respected in Mormonism than having held high offices.

The Romney family is Mormon royalty, Mitt is a Mormon golden boy who has the blessings of the Prophet to run for president of the United States.

Catholics are a good democratic voting block, the Mormon vote sucks.

And this isn't the first Mormon to run for president, FWIW, but he's gone the furthest, I think.

Oh, and the Senate leader of the Democratic Party?

He's also a Mormon.

Wonder how that happened, if they're all "hard core republicans"....

They are also the Democratic party leaders in the highest legislative body in the country?

So who do you attack for their vote? The Democratic voters.

Yes, Mormons vote massively republican. Their loss.

How am I attacking democratic voters?

Do you think attacking LDS is attacking republicans, is that the reason for the half-baked spin on their theology?

Why are you attacking the Democratic Senate Majority leader?

As Stake President he was over 3,000 member (.00032% of the total membership). He is not powerful in the church nor will he ever be.

Romney was more like a Roman Catholic Bishop.

Romney is the highest leader within a religion to be in line for the Presidency.

Or I am.

So, is it normal for a Roman Catholic Bishop to hold a temporary, unpaid, side job, as a "Bishop", that requires him to stamp papers for interviews for, say, a few years, for 10-12 people? Most Stake Presidents only have 3 or so "Bishopbricks" reporting to them, and have very little power or influence over them.

I was under the impression that Catholic Bishops were influential, and valued in matters of spiritual guidance, to many thousands of people. Am I wrong? Are they just guys who rubber-stamp a few local "sermon sayers" as being "good to go", and otherwise have no power or influence?

It sounds like you are trying to turn Bishop and Stake President, Mitt and the 180 years of Romney power within Mormonism into him being a mere deacon at some little back woods church in small town Georgia.

I do not think you know much about this church, and what their names, titles, and powers are.

Deacons are ushers, and bread and water servers.

They are "altar boys".

Bishops are closer to "facilities management" and "service agenda planner".

Rmoney had no real power. The LDS church doesn't construct itself that way. When rogue asshoies *do* get power hungry, they get voted out.

Why Romney?

Not obvious enough?

Good for the world... belief in being honest... serving others... place a high value on education... hard-working... productive... self-sufficient... self-reliant... positive... loyal... and so on... the list of good things is long...

2012 – A new study from researchers at the University of Pennsylvania and Indiana University - Latter-day Saints “volunteer and donate significantly more than the average American and are even more generous in time and money than the upper quintile of religious people in America… When it comes to the time they spend volunteering, the average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American.” The published findings further indicate that these “prosocial behaviors” are reflective of Latter-day Saint teachings, which emphasize service and charity to others.

“…The data shows that Mormons are generally better educated than non-Mormons...” – Source: “Mormons in the United States 1990-2008: Socio-Demographic Trends and Regional Differences” Analysis based on Trinity College’s American Religious Identification Survey, Trinity College, Hartford, Conn.

“American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us” (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2010), a sociological study conducted by scholars Robert D. Putnam (Ph.D.), and David E. Campbell (Ph.D.) - Among the study’s findings related to Latter-day Saints:

• Mormons are among those most friendly toward those of other faiths, including those outside of Christianity. (505-508)


(November 22, 2010 - ABC 4 News) - A new study released from UCLA finds the healthy lifestyle of LDS faithful pays off. The study finds Mormon men live an average of ten years longer than other males in the United States. Mormon women live more than five years longer than other American females... They credit the healthy lifestyle of Mormons, including no smoking or drinking alcohol.


2012, the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life released a groundbreaking new survey, the first ever published by a non-LDS research organization to focus exclusively on members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintss… The survey also illustrates how important family life is to most members of the LDS Church. Among life's priorities, being a good parent (81 percent) and having a successful marriage (73 percent) place higher than career concerns, having free time or even living a religious life.


the ongoing studies and national surveys continue to show the "good fruit"...

While I might oppose Romney as an individual on moral and logical grounds, it's impossible to dispute the great influence his election would give the Mormons relative to other faiths. Other Christian faiths would finally need to make room for the Mormons to take their place in mainstream Christianity and in the seats of power. As you say, "Mormons are generally better educated than non-Mormons." Fewer non-Mormons, therefore, means fewer less educated people in the country if I follow your reasoning, because non-Mormons are, according to your studies, worse educated.

I think very little of Romney, but perhaps you agree. He strikes me as a rich man's son who, despite being provided every advantage the world has to offer, lacks any evidence of compassion, stands for nothing reliably, and is willing to speak the most egregious and obvious lies. I don't know how that comports with Christianity in general or Mormonism specifically. Those moral and ethical shortcomings may come from Mitt's Republicanism.

But I don't want to do a disservice to you by implying that you consider Mitt one of the "good fruits" of which you speak. You may or may not be Mormon, but if you were that doesn't mean you would automatically support a swinish liar just because he is a Mormon. Although Mitt may not be an exemplary human being or Christian, I do have to acknowledge the power and prestige his election would give to the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints. Mitt's election would give the Mormon's a tremendous boost in recruiting appeal and a seat at the head of the table of mainstream Christianity.

Mormons will vote 95% for Romney.


It will be the most Republican vote ever, by any group of people.

I am seeing a bunch of corrections on DU of the same kind of nature as correcting Blood libel myths, or cannibal myths about various christians in general.

"Yes, many christians do believe they eat human flesh, but to be more specific, it's magical part human, part god, flesh, and they consider it a sacred act."

When somebody says the above to a Catholic, they are sometimes willing to try and educate. So, I check into this thread to educate, because I grew up LDS.

""If he wins the election, we will congratulate he and his Church of Latter Day Saints on their good fortune. What's good for Mormonism is good for America.""

"Is any group more republican than the Mormons? "

Yes, most other major "Christian" groups, are also horrible, if not equal, or worse.

Let me know when we have a female "Pope", or a female Mormon "prophet", or a muslim female "Imam".

Either hate women, or don't.

Either apologize for all Abrahamic religion, or don't.

Just don't pretend you can be a "Christian" and not hate women, or a "Muslim" and not hate women, or a "Jew" and not hate women.

Thousands of years of scriptures, and practice, say otherwise.

Mitt Romney will become an actual God according to his religion, and will be worshiped.

Mitt also decides if Ann Romney goes to heaven or not.

All men and women can choose to go to one of the three kingdoms of the heavens, save for people who actively, personally, decide not to go after having certain knowledge of it's existence. Axe murderer? Heaven. Jew? Heaven. Genocidal dictator? Heaven. The three kingdoms are for varying levels of heaven, but everybody goes. That why they're baptising dead people, to make it easier for the dead to get into one of the kingdoms.

As far as godhood, Rmoney has the *potential* of becoming a god, and Anne a goddess, but it's safe to say he's not trying, as he isn't living a christ-like life of charity and selflessness, so he's probably not going to make it that far. It's not a guaranteed thing, not by a long shot.

I think you might be being informed by somebody who is going for "shock value" in describing the actual doctrines....

"In the temple marriage ceremony, women are given secret names known only to their husbands, for identification purposes, so their husbands can pull them through to "the other side" after death "
"After death, while their husbands are creating and ruling over planets, the women have the questionable honor of bearing his "spirit children" for eternity. "

Kind of like "Catholic cannibalism".

Mormons are rabidly republican and are formally and aggressively against women having a life outside of the home.

Mormonism does not merely approve of staying home, they strongly promote it in even personal one to one meetings for violators, Bishop Romney himself visited a working mother to convince her to quit work according to the NYTs.

You keep trying to compare other churches to Mormonism, but that doesn't work, Obama needs the Catholic vote and easily won it last time, but he will lose Mormons by 95%.

Lots of Republicans there, too.

then you are way off base.

Mormons are anti-woman even after death, where a double standard prevails.

Mormonism was founded on sex and money, polygamy for men and mandatory tithing to reach exaltation and becoming a God.


Were you ever a temple Mormon, are you still Mormon?

So, yeah. they're also insane loonies. Most religions have them....

Again with the "anti-woman" thing, but on this thread, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not have a firm grasp of the topic matter. Gods cannot create life, or souls, only goddesses can do that. Gods are nothing without souls, without children. The veil ceremony is about confronting faith, not about being male, and you keep conflating them because the guy reaches through the veil.

Yes, I've been to temple, yes, according to church rolls, I am a mormon, but I haven't been back to church since a Bishop sent his weed-dealing son's pregnant girlfriend away for "medical reasons" and she came back not pregnant. That was over 20 years ago.

I still have them checking in with me every so often, as my little brother is still part of the church, and they have great searching services to find me. Mostly it's kids checking in on me, saying "Hi", letting me know where my local church is, and inviting me to attend and be social.

you've posted about the Mormon Church in post #11 is true. The misinformation and fabrications I've found in other threads is substantial, so I thank you. But I still say Mormonism is on the table and should be discussed.

I say it's fair game. Go ahead flame me if you want but I've never seen anyone question a leader's beliefs the way Obama has been.