Dreadful.

A woman collapsed in a female-only section of a university. The paramedics were not allowed to enter the compound. (I don't remember the rest of the story. I think, other women carried her to the doorstep.)

The paramedics were called to the house of a rich man, whose daughter had an emergency. When he saw that the paramedics are men, he refused to let them do a check-up of his daughter. They left. Late that night the father brought his daughter to the hospital, where she died hours later.

A woman was having complications giving birth. The husband refused to let the paramedics near his wife's vagina. They warned him that the child could die. The husband was unmoved: He and his wife could always make a new one.

death means nothing.

just words and ideas - and they are fine that people die for them - even children.

How unspeakably awful. But at least the invisible skydaddy is happy and that's far more important than this poor young woman's life, right?

As I've said before, the extremist Muslims in places like Saudia Arabia (and UAE) are pretty much the closest adherents to "authentic" Old Testament practices (see Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc.). You see similarities - even if inexact ones - among the most extreme fundie Christians and ultra-Orthodox Jews.

One reason why I derive no smug satisfaction from trashing Muslims as a group.

And if you wriggle away from putting responsibility where it is due, you are part of the problem.

Fixing it starts with understanding it and moves on to naming the causes out loud. Yes. That is a necessary step.

Please don't stick your head in the sand. We're dying. We're getting murdered.

And nice people say, "Ah, well, let's not criticize any group in particular! Lets not place blame! You know, 3000 years ago Abraham himself blah blah blah, deflection, excuses, hand-waving..."

We are DYING. EVERY. FUCKING. DAY.

And you can be philosophical and careful and tiptoey - because you are not.

That's smug. That's what smug is. Okay? Floating above and being philosophical because that's comfortable and keeps you from thinking hard thoughts.

And I don't wanna fight you, because I know you think that what you are saying is the "nice" thing to say.

But did you miss the part where WE. ARE. GETTING. MURDERED. BY. MEN. IN. OUR. FAMILIES.

And I think you know damn well why.

Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian women aren't any safer in lots of parts of the world.

I only know educated immigrants who go to the temple as a cultural thing. And I don't know what goes on in their homes so I don't make assumptions. That's a world I only know from news tidbits and movies.

Christianity: has a lot of really bad aspects in different parts of the world. Take the Phillipines: the Catholic church tells women, "get married; obey your husband; and don't use birth control.". They actually fought for years to keep birth control out of reach to poor people. These are women who have no money, no access to medical care, who give birth in agony and die like flies doing it - and the priests stand around smug on the hilltop and talk about a "culture of life". Well, fuck them. Forced prefnancy, pain, injury, hemorrhage, infection, debility, slavery forever until death - thats their "culture of life?" And the babies grow up to pick garbage on the edge of town. Fuck the church. Really.

But Islam is what I know. And it does not compare to Xtianity and Judaism - for a few straightforward reasons which, if I weren't exhausted, I would be happy to discuss with anyone who will listen. Maybe tomorrow if you have any interest.

which has hidden some of its darker side (check out the violence in Myanmar and Sri Lanka some time).

My own take is that it can be difficult to extract "Islam" from "South and Southwest Asian culture", but that the problem is most likely with the latter.

which, if I weren't exhausted, I would be happy to discuss with anyone who will listen.

Happy to; hope you have a good rest.

Where a Australian Bartender is currently serving time for using an image of Buddha to promote a drinks night . A few years prison for his trouble . IMO , f**k all religion . I prefer people to invisible friends ..... or invisible tyrants .

As if the fact religions all have their dark HISTORIES, it's ok to just wring our hands over what's happening TODAY in one particular religion. You could post these stories all day long (there are certainly enough of them) and you'll bump up against moral relativism every single time. Some people are so invested in being open minded, their brains have fallen out.

Yes - I blame all that early training in being tolerant and respectful and unbigoted.

Which came as a reaction against all the previous centuries of training to be intolerant and disrespectful and yes bigoted. And is mostly a great thing.

But somewhere along the way, liberals lost their standards. They are too willing to believe the man who says, "my beliefs are. beatiful and we are all happy here" - and ignore the fact that where he lives, there are no doors or windows and everyone is wearing chainss and no one, happy or not, gets the choice to leave.

There is a way to criticize beliefs without attacking the people who hold those beliefs.

But it's sadly true that Muslims (at least the set I am familiar with) take any critical questioning as an attack.

Which makes things complicated

as the enemy? Bomb them some more? I'm honestly at a loss here...

you must start with acknowledging there is a problem. We seem to have that trouble right here on a site that is supposed to ALWAYS stand up for women's right, minority rights, gay rights - all problems with fundamentalist Islam. We're so loathe to accept any religion in the public sphere in the US (which I support) and yet we seem to accept countries whose laws are based on sharia law like meek little kittens. How about shunning or stopping aid to any country that does not afford women equal rights, who have laws making being gay against the law? Seems like a good place to start to me. There are plenty ideas to try that don't involve killing people.

But holy shit - you can't even post a story about a repulsive man allowing his daughter to die before letting her be saved by males because Islam tells him it would be better for her to die without getting the "Christianity is JUST AS BAD" crap (a lazy and ignorant argument). I've been here for years and the moral relativists make me want to vomit.

which is absolutely legitimate - and becoming too caught up in cultural relativism. I try to avoid both, myself, but it's something of a balancing act.

I agree that there are possible steps to take, which don't involve starting another war/bombing campaign. But again, it's tricky - for example, severe sanctions against an already poor country might well lead to the deaths of many, and disproportionately young children at that, as we saw with Iraq in the 90's.

Needless to say, the more separation between (any) religion and the state, the better. As has been noted by many others, though, the lack of a democratic tradition in much (if not most) of the Arab world poses a serious obstacle to reform. Just look at what happened after the coup in Egypt - arguably, they wound up in even worse shape than before, with an explicitly theocratic faction taking control of things.

problem we're too loathe to admit. It does seem the only choices much of the Arab world is either a dictator or an Islamic state. The one country that seems to have escaped that is Turkey - and that's because of the military. I think if we can boycott Cuba for 5 decades for being communists (when we have no problem dealing with China), we can certainly stand on the issue of human rights. Of course we'll get the "where do we get off?" nonsense because apparently you have to be perfect to judge. Has the US been perfect? Not even close. We - like every other country on the planet - are concerned with our interests. We never seem to get credit for the things we do well - we're often the first country to bring or send aid to a natural disaster. We must be doing something right if people, every single day, risk their lives to get here

I'm sick to death of reading stories like the one that started this thread. We HAVE to be able to first talk about the problem and second, not be embarrassed to stand for simple human rights - being able to get educated without getting acid thrown in the faces of girls, be able to work and leave our homes without a male relative, be able to love and marry who we want - even when they're the same gender. Bringing up the crusades does nothing for the women and girls that are being beaten and die TODAY.

has veered back toward Islamism and autocracy at the first possible opportunity. Ataturk imposed a mask of modern secularism - but outside the cosmopolitan educated class, did it ever really take?

I can't see into the minds of the majority of people in Turkey. I do agree that Erdogan has taken Turkey backwards. But you bring up a good point - education. With education, everybody wins.

Turkish heartland adores Erdogan, is because his religious conservatism (translation: anti-freedom, anti-woman's-equality, anti-Jew, anti-west, anti-pluralism) is their culture too - and despite however-long-it's-been since Ataturk, a vast swath of the country not only has not embraced the separation of mosque and state, but actively resents their secular pluralistic democracy and wants islamism to overcome it.

that has kept Turkey from becoming an Islamic state is the military. And I'll never understand the support an Islamic state continually gets in the middle east. Forget the women who would have to be crazy to vote for it - what about the men with daughters? Are they all like the repulsive piece of shit this whole thread started on?

And I am glad you will never have to.

I don't have to agree with something in order to understand it.

my post #215 is the best I got.

If you want to understand why Muslim women cooperate inside an unjust system (generally without "seeing" it is unjust), there's plenty of factors. Basically the same ones that exist to support the status quo anywhere.

Maybe you think that you would be different: you would NEVER go along with it.

Hmmm.

Are you female? If so, do you spend money on hair and makeup? Wear high heels? Try to look pretty and thin and stylish?

The "looks game" is sexist. It judges women far more harshly than men. But we play anyway, don't we? We don't say, "Fuck it - I'll be as fat and homely as I want."

(Cooperating with a culture that values female youthfulness is especially hilarious. We all know we will start losing that game by age 35 or so... But we play ever more desperately as we start falling behind. Feminists too. And what are we doing? Competing against other women, to the detriment of all women.

Muslim women compete (againat each other) to fit into the rules of their society. If they don't, or if they try and fail, the punishments are frightening. If they win the game they get rewarded. it's a precarious reward, since they have accepted lesser status and a restricted life under men's thumbs. But think about the risks of bucking the system.

The solution would be for all Muslim women in an entire region to quit the game at the same time, so none could be punished for nonconformity. Is that likely to happen? Every girl is raised to strive for the golden apple.

Are western women ever going to quit the beauty race en masse?

One, two, three.... All together, now, ladies!

I don't really wear makeup and never wear high heels (which is why at age 54, I still have very pretty feet). Nobody would ever call my stylish although since tie dye happens to be in fashion at the moment, now may not be the best time to say that. I would never get plastic surgery - the thought of someone taking a knife to my face is very disturbing.

But the second half of your post is really the meat of it. I don't get punished for not doing any of those things. I hang with people who have better things to worry about than the latest fashion. That these women get punished for not conforming is the problem. That they don't have education is a problem. That they can't even walk out of their homes without a male relative is a real problem. Me not wearing makeup is what we call a first world problem. These women are not really competing with eachother - it sounds like they're just trying NOT to be punished. That's no way to live. Women in this country fought for many decades for equal rights - they weren't given to us, those older than us fought for them. I've always maintained the fastest way to get women equal rights in Muslim lands would be to arm all the women. I would have been fine with scooping up all the women in Afghanistan and bringing them here to live. Let the men fight amongst themselves. The problem is not the women - it's the men who make the rules.

You aren't going to change Muslims in other countries - even if you become president. So, think about what you can do for the Muslim next door.

I see Muslim communities in the US as being like droplets of oil in water. They stick together partly for familiarity and comfort, but also in a deliberate effort to keep the children from chasing western liberties. (Especially true about daughters because male reputation depends on keeping females "modest". Forced marriages happen. Abusive control of girls and wives happens frequently. Reputation murders happen here too.)

But what I hope is, that in a few generations there will be more mixing and assimilating - such that Islam in America will develop the same range that Judaism has. There might be secular "cultural Muslims" and liberals. And that will make life better for a lot of Muslim-born kids.

I would like to see non Muslim Americans expedite that. But you guys are doing the opposite.

The hostility of the "Muslims suck!" camp just ensures that Muslims will continue keeping to themselves.

The mindless cheerleading of the "Islam is just as good as the other religions" camp ignores the reality that IT'S NOT. And enables the crappy aspects to continue unchallenged.

Many Muslims in this country are getting crushed and abused ( I am speaking of girls and women and boys; it's different for grown men since they can break their own rules with no consequence, and they are the ones who benefit from the rules anyway. ). They truly have no access to the freedoms and legal protections you take for granted.

To promote integration: do the simple stuff. Keep an open mind and an open door. If your kid makes a Muslim friend, invite her over. Make connections; treat Muslims like everyone else. Reach out, especially, to Muslim women - since the abused ones often don't get support within their community, you might turn out to be a lifeline or a bridge out, for a woman who cant talk to anyone else.

(Oh - but just reach out in a normal way, like you would to anyone else. Dont do that awkward patronizing thing, assuming all Muslim women are kicked dogs who need you to save them. No one likes that, okay? It's insulting.)

Basically, I'd say, just be a decent human, but don't silence the victims by mouthing the "Islam is wonderful! And cannot be criticized!" crap that Muslim tyranny has shoved down everyone's throat. And when you hear that bullshit from your liberal friends (and you KNOW you will),

think of me and millions like me, and call them on it.

Thanks.

That better?

(Personally, I'd like to see fundies of all religions launched into the sun. Don't get me wrong.)

How about: Muslims are regular folk who are mostly trapped in a worldview that chains their minds ao they (most) really avoid asking questions or using logic.

And so, people die.

There are power-hungry manipulator's at the top, and little lords and dukes scattered everywhere who use religion to hang onto power - but mostly there's just a lot of people just like you and me who "can't think outside the box", as the expression goes.

Postulating that framework: how would you gently help a community like that soften up?

Really. Think it over.

"Postulating that framework: how would you gently help a community like that soften up?"

That's a question for greater minds than I, I'm afraid.

WE ARE GETTING MURDERED.

/bye.

But step one is to stop pretending.

Here's an example: a little French girl came back from summer vacation and whispered to her teacher that she had been taken away to Africa and her genitals had been cut off whole she was there. And the teacher said, "oh, well, um, think of it as a nice coming-of-age ritual, dear!"

And years later the girl ( now woman) remembers how the so-tolerant, so-nicey-nice French teacher threw her under the bus. Because one mustn't show religious bigotry!

Is that the answer?

Make space in your mind and heart for the fact that throwing doilies over a problem that kills people, makes you feel morally righteous but leaves people in the lurch.

Just, think.

BTW, I apologize for being harsh. I was really upset last night by the initial tenor of this thread. First the woman's death, and then the usual cover-up and excuse-making. I stand by my opinions but am sorry for being emotional.

And I never meant to "make excuses," I was just thinking of how a lot of folks use criticism of Islam as a religion - which is perfectly justified - as a reason to hate Muslims as people (the whole lot, not individuals, that is).

Bigotry, as I see it, is an irrational bias against some quality which is innate to a person - race. biological sex, to which sex one is attracted, ior any other thing that is part of that person's genotype and over which that person has no control whatsoever. It is never appropriate to consider someone as being lesser for any quality with which they were born.

The dismissal of choices such as ideology and religion - and yes, religion is a CHOICE, people change religions, and the most rational ones walk away from fairy tales entirely, all the time - are of a different nature entirely. And stupiy, destructive, irrational and harmful choices, the acting in conformance with which leads to harm to the rights and interests of others, should be loudly and openly condemned by all rational, reasonable persons when appropriate, which is often.

Beliefs which cannot be supported by extrinsic evidence and appeals to genuine reason are not worthy of any particular respect, at least in the public square.

"What can be asserted without evidence may also be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens

"I'd rather KNOW than BELIEVE."- Carl Sagan

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

is bigotry.

I have come to know the Senegalese community in Portland, most of whom are Muslim. To a person they are beautiful, generous, kind people who would never consider doing what the asshole in the OP did.

To paint them with the same broad brush is bigotry.

but for me persons in "choice groups" in cases where the choices of the meta-groups have been consistently shown to result in negativities have to overcome a rebuttable - note, rebuttable, NOT unrebuttable - presumption of suspicion. It can be overcome without much difficulty, at least as far as people's actions in the public square go.

Though I do wonder what they really believe in their heart of hearts. Here in Minnesota a number of seemingly nice Somali kids who were doing well in school and never caused or got into trouble of any kind have suddenly disappeared and turned up as ISIS members. Their motivation? Religion, of course.

Immutabilities of the sort I discussed in my prior post and mutabile choices remain horses of entirely different colors.

Time after time after time, when such people are apprehended and questioned, they name as their motive the indiscriminate killing of Muslim civilians by the U.S. military. They are not radicalized by Islam directly, but by the killing of Muslims by our government.

or Jews) as people. There are good ones in every group.

I avoid anything to do with fascism.

and dehumanizing its adherents as savages or monsters. And way too much otherwise understandable criticism of Islamic extremism, tends to slip into the latter category.

Yet not all followers of those religions are slaves to that dogma.

Care to elaborate?

has been immersed in it is trying to tell you what living with it is like. I think you are rather missing the point of her argument. That is what I mean.

only mankind could take that message and turn it to shit

led him to take the actions he took. Of all the creatures on earth only the human animal can convince itself that fidelity to the wishes of an imaginary being is a higher value than the survival of its own offspring.

"Of all the creatures on earth only the human animal can convince itself that fidelity to the wishes of an imaginary being is a higher value than the survival of its own offspring."

So good I feel like appropriating it myself.

The Inspiration Bird must have flown into my skull last night. Turned out rather nicely. Thanks, IB!

I've been trying to think of a simple expression of the bedrock luncay of believing in religulous fairy tales for a long time now. I think I found it.

Well done!

Fetch the ball, Spot!

Seriously. The first four words of the headline were quite sufficient to anger me.

Please get that straight.

WE ARE GETTING MURDERED. WOMEN LIKE ME, FROM MY WORLD. THANKS sO MUCH FOR YOUR CONCERN.

When honor matters more than your child's life, there is no purpose to life.
Fuck him. May he have a painful end.

Hope they throw away the key

If they release him the second attention turns elsewhere, it's just the same old same old.

will be light: a couple years maybe. Because after all he was motivated by an understandable concern.

Actually, his behavior was so over-the-top that even I (who have few illusions about the subject) at first suspected it was a tabloid misunderstanding.

Thats the oaradox: In UAE his action will be considered shocking, but he won't be entirely blamed.

But no one will ever point out the connection between the beliefs Islam espouses and the fact that this woman drowned. They will tell themselves "He was just crazy, I guess. He took modesty too far.".

The men will say that as they go about their day enjoying their authority over their womenfolK. And the women will say that, as they go about their day with carefully covered bodies and obedient smiles. The imam will say it as he gives the sermon on the obedience of Mohammed's wives who are an example to all women. And all day the mothers will correct their daughters and teach them all the little things they must not do, for fear of inviting gossip and dishonoring the family. And the sons meanwhile will go outside, running and laughing, to play soccer in the park.

And they'll think of the drowning and tell themselves their own ideology is innocent.

That's what I think.

There are zero consequences. If so called progressives weren't so busy trying to tag the magical balance fairy onto every single one of these stories, perhaps they'd see what the problem is. But no, they'll keep trying to deflect away from the problem in the name of "fairness" (spit).

And to be fair, it's really complicated - because pointing fingers at Muslims doesn't help.

Just please keep your eyes on the prize: that American Muslims should have the same rights as every free-born American to leave the religion if they want. And to have a fair and voluntary marriage. Just, freedom to choose.

(I always maintain that if any adult non-coerced non-insane woman really wants to cut off her own clitoris and sew her vagina shut to make herself a better person, that's her business.

But we need to ask: why is it that millions of women have had their clitoris cut off when they were helpless kids, and millions choose it for their daughters, but you never hear of any non mutilated adult choosing it freely for herself? What does that say about Islam?)

Coercion: that's the enemy.

hands of men. Any society that keeps down 1/2 of its population should be scorned day and night, all day, every day.

And none has entirely escaped it, and liberals love to point that out as part of the "we're no better!" bleating.

But when you start by saying that believers must follow for all time the example set by a medieval desert warlord or else be punished for blasphemy and apostasy, you're really handicapping a people's chance at evolving!

I still think evolution will happen though. Just no time soon.

is a pathetic weakling who cannot stand up to society's bullshit opinions.

Fugg him

My daughter is probably the most precious thing in my life i would do anything to ensure her safety no matter the consequences to my self laws be damned.

If something happened to her and I could have done something to prevent it i would likely go insane for the rest of my life. The idea of actually preventing someone from saving her is so foreign to me i can't even begin to understand it.

How can you watch your own child drown and even try to prevent it when there is a way to stop it. What kind of monsters ARE these people? They don't deserve to have children!

They will sacrifice them to suicide bombings and honor killings, when the natural thing to do would be to protect your child at all costs. They are inhuman.

of psychopaths or disturbed individuals. It all makes perfect sense to them. It is one piece of a big picture that all fits together to make a worldview that's as rational as ours. Except the rules and priorities are very very different.

what is essentially their ego. I think the desire to protect one's child is almost, if not stronger, than the survival instinct itself. To murder or sacrifice your child in order to "save face" is just unnatural to me. I'm sorry, I just don't understand it.

But I pretty much agree with everything else you say. There is something very wrong here culturally.

even consider trying to save her himself.

They are all about controlling women and that's the reason these idiotic mythologies were made up.

Damn tootin'!!!

Most of them evolved out of it.

Can we focus on the now? What is the cause of this atrocity today: August 10 2015. What set of beliefs killed THIS woman.

Name it - or how will you stop it from happening to the next woman, tomorrow?

rode a winged horse to Heaven. The Earth is 6,000 years old. Women need to be subjugated to men and don't deserve equality nor autonomy because of The Bible, the literal word of a magical supernatural being who apparently focuses with laser-intensity on the ape-like creatures of one little planet amongst 100 billion galaxies. The idiotic beliefs, particularly in fundamentalist Islam and Christianity and Judaism, are killing us. Oh, that's right, we're never supposed to say a word against "Faith" because somehow beliefs not backed by fact nor reason are more special than any other beliefs and should be put in a protective bubble where never is heard a discouraging word about their inherent lunacy.

Enough!

But have you heard of fundamentalist Christians (say, the Duggars?) murdering daughters for sneaking around with.a guy?

As for Jews: most are very secular. Within the closed ultra-orthodox communities I have heard of some abuse, and am willing to bet a lot of very bad things get hidden, because ultra-orthodox Jewish women are crushed under the exact same burdens and disenfranchisent as most Muslim women. But still, I have never heard of women getting murdered in those communities. (And in New York it would be hard to hide.).

To say "ah, well, religion in general is the problem!" is just a way to dance around the problem. I understand why you want to do that little dance. You know that if you say the wrong word out loud, you aren't "nice."

But we are dying. For God's sake, recognize the ideology that kills us. Please.

Well, Islam is indeed huge part of the problem, and currently it has the largest percentage of extremists. But this entire culture of women having no inherent value springs from the misogyny that is inherent in the Big Three Middle East-originated monotheisms. We see this "let's control women" shit in our own country, mainly from Christians. Yeah, maybe they're not murdering women as frequently as some of these Islamic zealot nutballs, but I see them on the same spectrum of a bigger problem.

If I could wave a magic wand and have all Islam disappear into thin air, would I do it? Hell yeah. Same for Christianity.

we are silenced. Shouted down and called names.

Islam will change for the better only when Muslims start facing its inherent problems and criticizing it and finding a way to rework it. It can happen.

But Muslims are taught never to criticize or question religious rules, and not to use logic to reason things out. It's like, when their brains are in danger of asking an uncomfortable question that might lead to doubt, then boom! a wall slams down and they snap back to, "I believe, I believe. Alif. mim. Nuun. And Allah knows best."

I want people like YOU to use reason. I want to show you the ways in which Islam creates, step by step, all the ingredients of an honor killing - everything but the final swipe of the knife across the throat.

I want you to get it - not so you can go out and rail at random Muslims (that's nasty and counterproductive) but just so you will be able to see through the obfuscations and excuses.

Because if a lot of non Muslim people finally get it, that understanding is going to percolate through the country. And eventually American Muslims (maybe not this generation, but soon) are going to eventually listen. And some will start thinking critically. And they are the ones who CAN lead Islam out of its fucking murderous swamp.

But first: people like you have to stop saying "religion of peace, blah blah blah." and blindly agreeing with the self-deceptions Muslims feed themselves, and each other, and especially people like you.

I don't want you to hate Islam - I want you to understand it.

But first you would have to stop resisting me ... even though I make you uncomfortable.

God, it's late and I doubt I am even making sense anymore... Beat wishes and good night, now.

Religion of Peace? Yeah, I don't buy that for a second.

People on DU seem to have problems drawing distinctions between despising belief systems and despising people. I despise irrational belief systems that have caused untold harm on the planet for centuries (particularly to women), chief among them Christianity and Islam.

I am no fan of Islam in any way, shape or form. Like I said, I would happily wave a wand to make it disappear, along with the other major harmful mythologies such as Christianity.

Conquest and conversion at the point of a sword and a choice of acceptance or death.

Same old barbaric bullshit.

There are a thousand forms of it. However religion seems to have the most devoted followers. It's religious fundamentalism that is the problem, but I think it's that Christianity and Judaism allow more room for interpretation than does Islam in that they seem to have a bit more tolerance for more liberal, secular branches of the faith. Maybe that's the problem. I don't know, I'm just trying to understand it.

I think this place could use an insider's viewpoint on this issue. You seem to have a very balanced opinion and I appreciate that.

A belated welcome to DU!

used to be a favorite password of mine.

Like a bad orgasm.

to type out on the keyboard. Silly, I know. But I also like how it rolls of the tongue.

I wish I could PM you the beverage of your choice.