the Swastika's 10000-year-old significance is overshadowed by the National Socialist party usage.

I think it is not a welcome symbol, and may be offensive to those who believe there was a holocaust.

I tend to think the harm the symbol represents is stronger than rehabbing a symbol.

Good thing the Nazis didn't use steaks as their national food.

blood of the tens of millions who.died in WWII. It's a shame, but not enough time has passed for it to be used frivolously.

and genocide, but we are talking 75 years here. Why push it? Was the symbol that important? And why would a young person who had no relation to the symbol use it over and over? And then swear it had nothing to do with Nazism, and I'm a big old meanie for calling her out on it.

I've always wondered about that on several topics.

When is too soon to tell a joke about something terrible that happened?
When is too soon to bring back a symbol like this?
When is too soon to start making children's toys that reenact a tragedy?

Personally, I think the symbol should never come back. Not this one. I do however think of symbols from the same era, like the pink triangle or the yellow Star of David, should be displayed as a signal of defiance to the oppression that original symbol stood for.

of what happened to them. The symbol of hate like we are discussing here should not be resurrected for it will forever remain the symbol of hate as long as the true story is known.

Glad we agree.

That's why I do it! Others as well.

We cannot afford to forget about the Holocaust. We must remember so that it doesn't happen again.

scene who incorporate it in tattoos and are doing the rehab thing, it is a very active movement. At first i fought with them and then i realized they were the farthest thing from neo nazi's and haters and they they were sincere. all that being said I personally could never be involved, don't support the rehabilitation movement, but don't judge my friends who do and are involved. I just don't understand why it is so important to rehab it, it's nothing special aesthetically in my opinion but i just let it go anyway.

nicest, kindest and generous people you would ever meet. they are just covered in piercings and tattoos with multicolored hair!

I really had a hard time coming to grips with it all and felt like I was being made to feel like I was the one being narrow minded and bigoted for being critical. i am heavily into tattoos and piercings and know many others internationally on facebook involved in the industry and we all "friend" each other and that is how i came across this movement. I was getting in arguments and unfriending and blocking actually probably very nice people at first. but then i just let it go. I will never accept that symbol because what it represents is too horrible to bother trying to rehabilitate. i just don't get the need to but the need for some is strong. BUT they are such wonderful people otherwise.

And Hitler ruined the Chaplin mustache, too

The meanings of symbols, much as the meaning of words tends to change over the course of 10,000 years

Unless of course, you're anent with gramercy of needs and inly desire marry and lackaday wellaways, sith your prithee is simply rede or (parfay?) nowise ilke.

did gyre and gimbal in the wabe.

One of my favorites.

Even though the sentence is nonsense, you can go into it and pick out noun, verb, adjectives, adverb, and a prepositional phrase.

Middle English used in modern context to allow poster to realize meanings change regardless of origin, as he doesn't seem to grasp that.

I'm gonna err on the side of caution and give it at least 2000 years before I consider it again.

that people might not know what it is. it is the mark of evil.

but we don't live 10, 000 years ago. we live now, and now it means only one thing.

bound to see little swastikas every where as they represent Buddhist Temples in Japan.

The swastikas are the mirror image of those used by the Nazis. Left sided if you will as opposed to right sided.

after all, it was how it was used, as a symbol of power and domination, not of peace and tranquility. The mirror image of the symbol.

...particularly in Asian religions, where it's still used.

This was an American young woman, where the symbol has an entirely different meaning.

It's a very simple pattern, and can be found in nearly every culture on earth at some point. There are 5000 year old swastikas carved into Norse ogham stones, 3000 year old English megaliths, and 500 year old French castles.

The current meaning is temporary, and at some point it will be reclaimed by humanity. The only real question is when that will happen. My personal opinion is that it should NOT happen until all of those persecuted beneath it, and directly impacted by that persecution, have passed away. Those who have suffered because of it should not be forced to watch it reappear in our culture.

Doesn't make sense to me, and I can't imagine an older Jewish person coming across this on a young person.

I study Mexican indigenous groups and I've not come across it, though I know that it is important among some native populations in the north-of-the-Rio-Grande-region.
There is a tremendous interest, for whatever reason, in Nazi history and lore among a younger age-set (I'm only 38, and I would venture that the interest is among the 18-30 group there). I've asked friends who live there and who are Mexican and they can't really explain it, except that there is an intertwining of German and Mexican history throughout the 19th and 20th century. There are often tianguis, or little markets, where one can buy all manner of Nazi propaganda, videos, books, flags, etc. It's very unnerving, even though I'm a historian and I realize some of this stuff (the movies and books in particular) are historical in nature.

I don't know. It's weird. I get the ancient element of the symbol and at any rate, the symbol was inverted by Hitler. But still.

How do young people think this is cool??? I don't get it. My kids are 25, 24 and 20, and all think this is abhorrent. But they were raised by me and have lots of Jewish friends. I also noticed this is popular in the neo-hippies, wearing them with their crocheted bikini tops. Hippies were never so stupid.

Now I need to go make so non-Nazi jewelry to pay the rent.

The St. Brigid's cross looks too similar for me to hang in my house as well. I'm half Irish (had a grandparent born there). I love the cross itself, but I really don't want stupid questions.

Or is it still a powerful symbol of hate and genocide. I think the latter. I'm surprised at the implicit support for it among some responders.

Would you suggest that the Dalai Lama reject it and stop its display at his and all Tibetan Buddhist events?

They are for sale at most all Hindu and Buddhist gift shops.

Young Americans making and wearing it as "cool" strikes me as just wrong.

I'm sure I'll be berated for mentioning this.

there are swastikas. That's entirely different from.rehabbing it in mainstream western culture. It's entirely different than the frivolous use of it because it's cool.

Hitler and the Naziz?

That belief is a variant of white supremacy in and of itself, and I know you aren't a white supremacist. However, there does seem to be a VERY strong undercurrent of thought that 'our' way is the 'right' way...which is cultural hegemony when backed with the range and reach America has.

Edited to add: Afterthought: Wasn't the German version different by being at an angle or something like that? I was thinking the 'normal' one is not angled...which should be an obvious difference.

It's not something most people would notice.

That's the culture that is important to consider. In Spain I expected to get to work at 9 and have a very long lunch break. Here I expect to be fired if I do. If they are selling these to Buddhists in Tibet, I expect few complaints. Here, I expect many. Moral relativism works both ways.

I would say a non-culturally-related individual shouldn't be making those things in a western society, and for the obvious reason.

The trick comes when dealing with those who DO have a cultural relationship, particularly if they don't look 'stereotypical'. Which is an interesting thing to have to point out, given that fighting stereotypes is a large part of what we do.

But from looking at her, you wouldn't think so. She's very blonde (probably dyed) but also very, very light skinned - almost ghostly. Looks English/Irish to me. But as you said, I'm operating from a stereotype.

Interestingly, if non-Native Americans make Indian jewelry while claiming they are Native, they can be convicted. There was a jeweler just sentenced to three years probation for representing himself as NA when he was, in fact, not.

of followers. She is a very successful southwest jeweler, puts the swastika stuff on her own website, also, but not on Facebook or her etsy site. I imagine she would be banned if she did. She is off Instagram now, after I reported every picture of the swastika. I don't know if she left or was removed.

It's way too soon to try to drag that symbol back out into society again. The hate and pain are still too fresh for so many people.

Sorry, it's' just wrong.

That said, if native Americans wear it as part of their culture, they get a pass. If people from Asia living here have swastikas a helpful hint about our culture would be warranted.

I was referring to recent immigrants who might not know how negative a reaction a swastika will cause here.

Can you imagine an immigrant walking down the street in a t-shirt emblazoned with a swastika? I guess it would depend on where you live, but where I live, that shirt would be commented up in a NY second. And not in a positive way. I don't think it would be worn again.

Kind of like, "When in Rome..." Just the way it is.

Absolutely.

As another person said on this thread, it wasn't a part of many cultures.

I imagine some of these people are ignorant and thoughtless enough to believe a noble historic meaning is being projected, but others are undoubtedly dog-whistlers who WANT their message heard loud and clear, they just don't want to be called on it. It's not hateful hypocrisy, it's wisdom. Listen and learn.

Wife of a Jew

and commented on it.

I was really sick. "Can't wait to get more $$ to buy one!!" "Cool symbol!!" Were they freaking kidding me, stupid, or what?? I'm a teacher, can you imagine if I wore something like that to school, and said it was part of my cultural heritage. No. Just no.

it is a shame that a symbol of many groups was taken and used in such an obscene way.
but it was.

doesn't work for me.

It would date back years before Nazi Germany.

Hinduism and Buddhism have many symbols other than that which can be used.

If that's the case you're making, then, the terrorists have won.

The symbol is common in Asia and South America. And it has a history here in the SW among some Natives. You don't get to dictate their culture.

Its use in modern America is not common. I have been to auctions where they have auctioned a Nazi flag, and it was shown for a second and then put away. Common mores dictate its use, and I am part of the common.

I'm not saying that people in Asia are horrible for using it. I'm saying that young people who are NOT reclaiming their history making and wearing jewelry with that symbol is offensive. And wrong.

Who's using the symbol, in what configuration, in what environment? I can't imagine someone making a piece of Hindu or Buddhist art out there needs anyone to tell them to stop using the swastika because Westerners mainly associate it with Nazis and skinheads.

But by the same token, if someone stitches a big black swastika to their jacket in the United States, they shouldn't be surprised when people assume they're down with Hitler just because they have decided it's all "rehabilitated" now.

Symbols are a form of communication, and they take their meaning from the ways they are deployed and the surrounding facts and history. No shape or color or design has an intrinsic meaning that anyone can claim is the only "real" meaning.

Part of context is the presentation itself.

The Nazi symbol is this:




(Clockwise bends, canted at an angle, generally those colors).

Not this:



Or this:


Or this:



I don't know about the worthiness of "rehabilitating" the symbol -- for those who know the difference in history, format and usage, I don't know that it needs it. I would wonder if some smirking racist out there was just hoping to retcon their Nazi paraphernalia into acceptability, or take racists' money for a design without owning up to the real appeal of what they're selling.

So if someone is going to use it, it's easy enough to be clear as to whether or not they are invoking the racism and genocide the Nazi regime came to stand for. And leaving any room for doubt is not a good idea.

I'm sure the artists in India or elsewhere the symbol has much older roots than WWII are clear amongst themselves that they don't suddenly "mean" what the Nazis meant when they employ the swastika.

But especially here in the West, where it's never been well known outside of some native American communities other than as a Nazi symbol, just throwing swastikas around they though were just another "interesting shape" is potentially very insensitive.

If we're trying to create art, we have to have command of the images, including symbols we use. I think intelligent people can do that, but it's more complicated to communicate correctly than someone just deciding one day what a given symbol "really" means.

Just my $0.02.

Maybe not the artist, but she certainly didn't address the issue at all in her listings of the jewelry. But I felt that many of the "Oh, Yeah!!" responses were racists just loving the use of it in this girl's jewelry.

And I'm not for censorship generally. I don't give a damn if Jesus is portrayed in a bucket of piss. That's a personal interpretation of an iconic figure and piss wasn't used as a symbol of genocide. This is a different matter, IMHO.

should pretty much ruin it for anyone who don't have a really compelling non-racist reason to display it

"Let's rehabilitate this pretty symbol" is at best clueless, and it's SO clueless that one should suspect it's actually not clueless at all but deliberately insensitive -- sort of like, "Hey! Let's look at this lynching photo and just study it as an interesting work of art"

Young jeweler, trying to be a rebel, she's covered in tattoos, one of those "cool" artists, also claims she has a Native American background, which I hope is true, because if not, she could be in legal trouble making southwest jewelry with that claim. (Although she's blonde and very light-skinned, almost ghostly, so while I would never say it's a lie, I wouldn't have guessed that to be her heritage.) Told me she isn't using the symbol as a Nazi symbol, I'm an idiot, said it's a symbol of hope, no other explanation. I got the gut feeling that she is being "edgy" in her uneducated mind, pushing the envelope to show how "hip" and ahead of the curve she is, and her tens of thousands of instagram followers?? I have no clue. No one says a word about it, except "Cool!!"

I was literally sick to my stomach reading the comments on these pieces of jewelry. Cool, my ass.

Some people are of a mindset that they always want to push the edge of the envelope to see just what they can get away with.

......who remember the Blitz.

I wonder if one of these young 'hip' people will understand it when they get a sarcastic 'Sig heil,' as a response to their jewelry or tattoos.

By NEO-Nazis in our culture.

Anyone trying to claim, here and now, that they are reclaiming an ancient symbol (which we know the swastika is, in addition to being the symbol of a murderous and heinous regime that killed millions in the lifetimes of our parents, and even of a few of us) is veing disingenuous in the extreme.

It's their symbol as much as it was the Norsemen's and has been for an immeasurably long time.

The hipper-than-thou, oh-so-edgy trendies can eff off. They are ignorant, clueless, just plain stupid or all of the above.

I was a few years younger than the "hippies," who actually fought to end the war and for civil rights. This new generation of hippie wannabes argue to weat a swastika. Sheesh.

at 45 degree tilt, bad symbol, otherwise, it is ok.

Including the old Jewish cemetaries in Mumbai, oddly enough (they're from the 1700s or so).

Just where was this disgusting atrocity posted?

and not pre-Columbian Native American culture, which I am actually studying right now, thanks!

On flags, uniforms, etc.

And we do have a basic Western culture. Others come here, we do blend, but we are certainly not Eastern in our culture.

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People generally only censor things they find upsetting in some way.

I don't see why the half-naked pics mean it's not being used in a sacred way. Spirituality means different things to different people, and is expressed in different ways.

I don't mind people trying to rehabilitate a symbol, but I probably wouldn't wear a swastika around because I think it would send the wrong message. I'll let other people do the rehabilitating.

I wouldn't censor the Christ in a bucket of piss because, really, who does it harm?? But the swastika was the symbol of a regime that actually did harm/kill people, much like the Confederate flag.

And the half-naked part disturbed me because it wasn't art - it was self-promotion, a sales pitch. Low cut shirt, large tattoed breasts, with a swastika for sale. Nothing sacred about that.

Someone needs to tell these people that "Springtime For Hitler" was fictional.

The swastika may be a Buddhist symbol, but I think the fact it is conveniently a Buddhist symbol can be used to conveniently "get away with" wearing a fascist symbol. i.e., this is a fascist dog whistle and needs to be called out and discouraged among kids before it becomes hip.

to try to get away with pushing the envelope, being hip.

And, yes, I did report it and the girl's entire feed, with all 26K followers, none of whom bothered to comment on the inappropriate use of the swastika, is gone.

Next thing you know, Kim Kardashian will be wearing one, claiming it's "sacred." Mark my words.

but I believe they marshal quite a few "historical" arguments so that the confederate flag doesn't directly mean "war to defend slavery".

The Swastika is on the Victorian postcards because of the fascination with Indian culture and/or emerging secular-spiritual cults like Theosophy at the time.

the later meaning so completely subsumed the earlier meaning that the claiming the earlier meeting is still trying to smuggle in a dog whistles. There are plenty of other Buddhist cultural symbols without trying to rehabilitate that one. The only place I might consider that argument is in proper context: amongst people in the countries of origin, where that symbol belongs, working to preserve actual cultural heritage, and who have an argument about wanting to revive their own symbol of their own culture.

still associated with White Supremacist groups here. nt

Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 06:04 AM - Edit history (1)

"Can I let my ass hang out in the streets? Asses haven been around for millennia, you ignorant slob!"

If I transfer a message to someone else, I share responsibilty for how the recipient reads it.

"Blood was coming out of her... wherever! Come on! We were just joking around!"

It doesn't matter how you meant it, because meaning cannot be directly transfered, only via message. You are always on the hook for what other people think about you.

that Hitler ruined it forever.

at a Hindu service and there were swastikas in the background, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I know the historical context. But for young Americans to wear it to be "hip" and "pushing the envelope" and to sell their stuff - different context.

from using it and not others. Native Americans and Hindus living in America can use it but anyone else is just a hipster and you find that offensive.

Big planet with such provincial viewpoints. Where I live the predominant religion is hindu and WWII had little impact.

"reclaimed" or "rehabilitated."

Aside from the idiocy of trying to "rehab" it or appropriate Asian or Native culture so you can ignore the white history of the symbol- it's just dammed foolish for anyone to walk around wearing a symbol that would attract that kind of scumbag to you.

If one of them sees a white woman wearing a swastika of any form they will be all over her- those types don't often meet a woman willing to talk to them unless her self esteem is down so low they can brainwash her on their propaganda. Thinking they just scored a true believer would draw them like flies to a picnic.

If you are from an Asian or Native American background where this symbol has long lasting history and meaning, it's fine and appropriate for you to use and display and take the chance to educate people that the misuse of it by Europeans isn't the only use or history.

If you are a white person trying to be hip, than its either cultural appropriation if you are claiming it because of someone else's beliefs and history or it's just an inappropriate and very insensitive use of a symbol you know will have bad memories and connotations to most just because you want to appear edgy and avant-garde.

the other day and one piece caught my eye. It is an silver bracelet, with some very nice turquoise stones and incised designs, several of which are swastikas. The piece is probably 70 or so years old and is of Zuni or Navajo origin. The swastikas in question are turned opposite to the ones used by the Nazi Party. I have very mixed feelings. I will probably never wear it, even though I know the design is an ancient one, because of what Hitler and the Nazis did to it. On the other hand, I won't get rid of the bracelet because it was my mom's, even if I don't ever remember seeing her wear it.

However, today's young people know virtually no history and few have any idea what the swastika meant or was used for, so I'm not surprised that it's a candidate for rehabilitation by some. Personally, I'm against it.

It's cute, but the "People's Car" was developed by Nazi Germany.

I must have missed that.

from the Nazis. Once upon a time that might have been possible but with social media and other forms of communication it will forever be the symbol of the Nazis like it or not.