Construction, turning wrenches, agriculture and retail were once all respectable jobs.

"Jobs americans shouldn't do" my ass. What we shouldn't do is import cheap labor while "kids" spend all summer playing their x-boxes waiting for 17th grade to start.

have construction on there as the most common. Also, if you're not in a union in construction, you're not making a living. Agriculture jobs done by illegals are usually people picking fruits off vines, which Americans are just not gonna do, and can do better. In retail, cashier is very different than a salesman.

Can't have a Union when they Bust Unions with illegal labor

They are all about markets until they discover a labor shortage. Or more correctly a unwillingness by many to do the requested labor for the miniscule amount being offered. If they were offering Union Scale + 20% and couldn't get any laborers I would feel different. But everything I read suggests the concept of paying Scale is something they wouldn't ever consider.

that there simply wasn't enough labor to get the work done. Harvesting these crops is skilled labor that you can't replace from the general work force.

What is the cost to pick a bushel vs the price at market? Were there any incentives to take a loss?

If you offered semi-steady work at $200/hr you would have a suitably sized skilled workforce within a season.

maybe they shouldn't be had at all. Would just make the Pick Your Own variety all the more sweeter.

Most migrant farm workers aren't paid hourly, they're paid by volume they collect.

Appears to be very little difference in the Cost of Strawberries between pre-picked on a grocers shelf and going and picking them myself. That would indicate to me that we pay very little premium on having someone do the actual picking for us. If we pay the farmer $2.50 a lb and either pick ourselves or pay someone. According to the UFW that should mean about 25 cents per pound for the pickers. Seems to me there is alot of room for growth in what the farmworker is paid.

the wages were too low to attract even immigrants.

you could pay American workers twice that rate, and they still wouldn't be able to hire any, because the unskilled American workers can only pick about 1/5 or so of what the experienced, skilled Mexican workers can.

they tried replacing them in Alabama. It was a monstrous failure.

http://blog.al.com/wire/2011/10/state_program_to_replace_immig.html

Even if volunteers would pick it for free, if transportation cost are tok high, they will let them rot.

documented workers. I work closely with housekeeping services, they are hard working and efficient. We see our lawns manicured by landscapers, show up for the job and work hard. The only reason I can see where Trump is running his mouth about illegals is because it is a GOP issue and the angry white people will cheer for the Donald.

people would never take these jobs.

the most favored establishment candidates will expose Trump's immigration hypocrisy as soon as they get the memo

Carpenters- a union carpenter makes a damm good hourly wage, and often will make more than a lot of the professions on your list. The availability of cheap non-union labor cuts them out.

Same as above goes for masons, drywall installers (is that a carpenter? some union carpenters got mad at me ones for lumping those together), roofers, and anyone else in construction that should be done by a card carrying union journeyman but they get displaced when contractors can exploit immigrants.

Farm labor- it should pay a lot, lot more than it does, especially the seasonal work where workers need to make enough to carry over until something else comes along. but the farmers can exploit the lower wages.

I am not hating on immigrants at all, just pointing out that they can be and are exploited to replace workers that would make a higher wage.

is the a$$holes who exploit the immigrants and underbid the other contractors who pays regular wages, Does the immigrants gets the pay, hell no, it goes into their pockets and lots of times the immigrants do the work and are cheated out of their pay. Can they say anything, no, they are not documented. Let's do this, every time we see our union jobs being taken by a contractor who is probably hiring immigrants, let's report the location, if the rules on hiring is going to function then the contractors can be fined and we should take this further, put our of business. This is how unions can work for their members.

a lot of the memberships are hereditary or you have to know the right people. Their safety rules, such as having two watchers for one guy actively doing a task, is stuff businesses can't easily afford.

high school advisor, which any decent kid could get.

Business thinks it can't afford anything. What business wants should never be considered when arranging a society, because what business wants is ALL THE MONEY.

And the pay rates have rapidly dwindled.

And Mexicans know about unions. Maybe the trade unions here should be embracing and organizing them.

Don't think we have a good database of exactly what type and how many jobs the undocumented do. All the under the table slave wage earners are not going to be included in a study of All immigrants and how they are employed.

But we do know that paying the astronomical sum of $20/hr couldn't get our own residents to perform Iron Work in Phoenix. Forcing the builders to have to bring in workers from Mexico City.


?quality=65&strip=color&w=838

I was making well over $20 an hour doing Union Ironwork back in the 80's.But I had to leave Tenn. to get it.

What's wrong with a US born citizen being employed as: "misc. agricultural, housekeeper, janitor, cashier, etc." ????

than those required for the jobs in your post. We do, after all, pay billions, if not trillions, to school taxes collectively as a nation.

electrician. The recession hit, construction stopped, and he had to do something else, but the idea that he has little in the way of knowledge and skills is ridiculous. The 'electricians' who have been imported, whether legally hired or not, are getting less than half the wage that my son was getting. Of course, the job is not getting done correctly, either. He's had side jobs fixing the 'work' that these subpar workers do.

Second, there are plenty of people who are never going to be able to acquire advanced skills -- what should they do? Go off in the corner and die? Those so-called crappy jobs may be the most that many people can do.

and super dangerous to be screwed up. Not the same for farm strawberry pickers, janitors, etc.

I suggest you read this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7084781

deemed "beneath" Americans?

Can't get on board with that.

What we as Americans have to (re)learn is to not look down our noses at the jobs other people do. Not everyone is cut out for being, or wants to be, a lawyer or accountant or whatever lofty job title you apparently have.

had learned math/science in HS (American kids only take math up to pre-calc, India and China have them do calculus and teach it better too), they coulda done the STEM jobs that its hard to find Americans to do. Or if the ones who went to college took a useful major, they'd have gotten jobs too.

Wage depression facilitated by exploitation of illegal immigrants hurts all workers. And your assertion that American kids shouldn't "aspire" to any of "those jobs" is bizarre.

is not too skilled.

Pretty sure the OP doesn't know what a shovel is.

"Illegals" is an ugly, demeaning term popular with the repressive Right Wing. You may want to reconsider your entire way of thinking...

I'm not sure if the emphasis is on the former or the latter.

Jobs that we "should (not) aspire to do"?

It's crazy myopic, but seems to be a common response. But historically speaking, DU has always had class problems. This place is, in a word, wealthy (in aggregate). Ironically enough, my perception of that is probably skewed by the fact that I have Unbelievably Low Cost of Living where $40,000 yr seems wealthy because at that income, I wouldn't know what to do with all the money (because low prices).

That said, many here DO try to be aware of class differences and even if they can't relate 100%, to me it's enough that they care to try.

teacher, I try to raise the aspirations of kids who say that when they grow up, they want to work at Mcdonalds. Without disparaging that work. It is what their immigrant parents do.

less than a generation ago.

In 4 states the most common job taken was "College Teacher"...so tell me about the college teachers you know who would pronounce it "dey took errr jabbbs".

Or Software designer (programmer or coder on the list)....or nurse (which IS on the list whether you see it or not)-each of them listed in various states. Engineers and doctors are being visa'ed down the food chain.

Your post sir, is foolish-they are in fact taking American jobs and putting downward pressure on all wages. The important thing to recognize is that both you and the "illegal immigrants" are victims of Corporate wage rape. If picking lettuce paid 100K a year you would suddenly find thousands of Americans available. It's similar to coal mining-the job stinks but if the money is good enough there is no task Americans won't do-even at the risk of black lung or heat stroke...

and while yes, a few instances of good jobs turn up on that list, most of the states, and if you were to look at most of the workers in numbers, overall, are not in the ones you're trying to point out.

Cooks-5 states
Truck Driver 1 State
Construction 4 States
Machine Operator 1 State
Butchers 2 States

So 16 total states where the job most often held by an immigrant is a job that in the 1960's paid enough that a single income family could enter the middle class...

You have a strange idea of what constitutes "a few"....

That is xenophobic horse crap. It's an article of faith amongst the Pat Buchanan crowd, but it's simply not true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1

given that not only do we support different primary candidates, but I never expected anyone at all here, or many people, to buy into the Trump argument.

Illegal immigration does have some undeniably negative economic effects. Similarly skilled native-born workers are faced with a choice of either accepting lower pay or not working in the field at all. Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent.


7.4% strikes me as being a real loss-not "xenophobic horse crap".

overall, they help the economy and improve the wages, retirement benefits, and purchasing power of most households.

This is not disputed by people who know what they're talking about.

Maybe competition from illegal immigrants isn't his biggest problem.

that .74 goes a looonng way (IDK how to write the red sarcasm thing)

or new shoes for a child, or a tank of gas...

Read the poster's linked article and then explain this to the 25 million workers that the article admit get screwed...

Most of those jobs in the OP pay well over $10/hr though so the increase would be even greater.

I imagine it'd be pretty darn tough to find an undocumented college teacher.

Americans shouldn't "aspire" to be cooks, construction laborers, maids and housekeeping workers, grounds maintenance workers, carpenters, janitors and building cleaners, agricultural workers, painters, cashiers, driver/sales workers or truck drivers?

Who the hell do you think did all those things before the influx of undocumented workers?

I baled hay, drove a propane delivery truck, and was a construction ironworker before I was 20 years old.

My son worked construction every summer he was in high school.

My grandson would love to have the same opportunity his dad did but guess what? Those jobs no longer exist. And you don't have to be a Mensa member to know why.

I am not talking about ALL of the occupations listed on the map or the graph, but the ones I DO point out are the things like janitor, housekeeper, misc agricultural, and cashiers. The "cooks" listed may be vague, but I don't think they are the ones who make serious meals, but the ones flipping burgers at local burger joints, pizza shops.

Those jobs are very different than truckers, carpenters, etc. But lets be real, most of the illegals do the jobs in the line above, not this one.

I'm not arguing for complete open borders. I do think a wall would be good on parts, if not all of the border. But to separate families, leave millions of kids orphaned, and hunt down economical and useful labor would be an awful idea.

THERE IT IS-now that didn't hurt,did it? That post is all I would ever have to read from you....you stand there in judgement and claim a moral high ground and then you post this.

Leaving out my point about breaking up families, uprooting people, and leaving orphans in their wake. Notice the order of things before I mentioned the economic side?

the most dangerous jobs - like high rise jobs way up in the sky that are very dangerous and no one else wants them. We saw that happen with they are hired to help build silos in the Midwest or coal plants in Montana.

Next time you eat, live in a house, or enjoy your many comforts: make sure to thank a Mexican.

SI SE PUEDE!

VIVA LA RAZA!

It's insulting to put down professions that way.

Illegal and legal (H1B) immigrants drive wages down for everyone, which is why businesses love it. CEOs can sit in their palaces and watch as Americans are replaced from afar.

Disgusting that the left fall for this corporatist bullshit. The sole reason they are allowed in is to depress wages for Americans.

"Aspiring to do any of those jobs (misc. agricultural, housekeeper, janitor, cashiers, etc.), given the resources US born citizens has, is sad." This is one of those times when I truly want to respond with direct foul language and insults.

I cannot express strongly enough how insulting and off-the-mark your statement was.

First off, cooks, painters, construction, maintenance, cashiers, truck drivers and such are fine jobs, thank you very much. Second, the first link is for legal immigrants, so you are not even comparing apples and oranges. Third, the second link is about England, and most state curriculum's include algorithms and programming beginning first grade.

Man, that OP is effed up

Immigrants take those jobs largely because they have no choice. And they cannot or will not stand up for their rights because they will be deported. Those farms and construction companies are engaging in what is essentially indentured servitude. They have them over a barrel. You can bet anyone would work 24/7, given the threat of deportation.

Pay substandard wages (which may still be better than whatever they were making at home) and instill fear into the workers to keep them from demanding more.

It is bullshit to say that Americans won't take those jobs. They would. Just not at sub-minimum wage levels. Not a single one of those job categories pays anything close to a living wage. NOT ONE. This is not a question of whose work ethic is better, but a question of simple economics.

or the ones people are hiring H1B visa folks for?

Honestly, this whole, "they only take jobs Americans wont do" is right-wing bullshit. Who the fuck do you think were doing those jobs before the corporations started encouraging immigrants to sneak over the border to do?

One guess: Americans.

My aunt used to make a pretty good living cleaning hotel rooms. As soon as the hotel realized they could hire someone in the country illegally for half the price, no benefits, she was let go.

Not because she didn't want to do the job, but because the company found someone to do it cheaper. My aunt couldn't live 15 people to a room, her replacements could and did.

Textile jobs that used to pay good salaries are now mostly 7 to 8 dollars an hour. Maintenance jobs (i.e., fixing machinery), now 7 to 8 dollars (and I know, because I used to make $16/hour, five years ago, $7.50 was top pay).

Landscaping jobs used to pay well, as did painting, plastering and other construction jobs. In my area, they're now low-end, barely-minimum wage with no benefits. Many companies won't hire an American, no matter how desperate they are to work, because they don't want to pay wages, taxes and other things, which they can get away with by hire undocumented migrants.

So who's surprised nobody wants them? Especially when we were sold on all those high tech jobs that seem to have vanished in the reality of part-time retail.

And before you haul out the tar and feathers, I don't blame the folks coming over the borders. I know their countries are in bad shape. I blame our government and corporations for looking at their bottom line and not caring one shit about the taxpayers who used to pay lots of taxes but now don't due to drastically lower wages. Part-time and temp jobs don't cut it, for anybody, and one day we'll get hit with it full in the face.

I lived in an area where the construction industry used undocumented day laborers to bust the unions. They picked them up on the street, literally, and paid them $10 to $12 an hour, no benefits, no taxes, no paperwork, no complaints. The journeyman carpenters had jobs as crew leaders, but there was no such thing as an apprentice carpenter. When La Migra showed up at a job site, people scattered to every point of the compass.

You bring in cheap H1B workers, after downsizing your better paid American engineers. The American engineers go to the next job and are offered a lower salary because 'that's what the job earns now'
The salaries keep slowly inching downward because the H1B worker will accept a pittance for the opportunity to work here.

and I don't think America should be letting foreign national doctors in as much, even compared to foreign educated US citizens doctors (American kids who went to med school in the Carribbean, Mexico, etc.).

But those are skilled jobs. Most of the stuff undocs do isn't so skilled (like pick strawberries, maids and janitors, etc.)