I'm not looking for perfect.

we may not protest in "the right way" for you

This thread is simply asking for understanding despite disagreement. That, and recognizing that our perspective may be a very different one, and the actions we take may reflect that.

I'm not interested into going into specific actions today.

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

in the "future" which is only a though in your head and does not exist. Suggest you read "The Power Of Now" by Echart Tolle (audio book is free on line) to stop living in the future or some distant place where you'll be happy. All of life can only be experienced in the NOW.

Thanks...

Thank you. .....

I was part of that bunch.
Potential cannon fodder.
Joined the air national guard j u s t before Viet Nam really ramped up.
(1963)
Wasn't really a draft dodger.
It was just a way to become a commissioned officer without suffering boot camp or OCS.

I became a pilot, but our airplanes were so old and obsolete (fighter/photo recon) that there was no chance we'd be activated and sent to SEA.
Many units weren't so lucky.

What you say is absolute gospel.

Thank you for your excellent post.

You've changed some minds and perspectives on BLM, today. Thanks for this post.

Bookmarking

Powerful, moving and oh so true.

Last edited Thu Aug 20, 2015, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)

great post!

Do it your way. Do it in the way that works for you and gets the attention and change you want.

I don't care who or what you disrupt.

Don't listen to lectures from your elders. We didn't.

campaign event.

No wonder white privileged Americans are upset at BLM, how dare they...

we have been waiting a long time for a generation that did not say, "Well you make it and we will come, we don't know how so if you want us to protest you have to lead it." We were and are tired. Thank goodness for you and those like you who are doing it your way. What we did was massive and it worked. It was slow and the backlash was huge but most of us had not the first clue what to do but together we did it.

I will personally stand behind most anything, aside from killing and hurting others, if that is what needs to happen to be heard. Not crazy about destruction but it has been effective from time to time.

I am so very happy to see this. You will never be sorry, even if you lose you will NEVER be sorry you tried.

If there is ever an action around where I might be I will support and join in.

The new keepers of the flame.

...but I think I maybe like being an idealist. And I'll keep fighting like one, too. If I remember correctly, the ones throughout history that changed things have been the ones that never gave in--compromised on some things, maybe, but never, ever gave in.

but I can be pragmatic to a point as well.

Idealism points a direction. If that direction is not established we will remain the same or go backwards away from where you want to go.

Rarely does an idealist win a big battle but the direction can change and that is about everything right there. It has to be maintained carefully though.

This is just my take on things. I am certain many would disagree. In my life I have helped move one thing almost to completion and that is the rights of LGBT citizens in the state of Kansas. It can be done so never lose hope .

I can be pragmatic, if pragmatism will get us ahead, and not just "less screwed" and still heading backwards.

Wise words from you. I'll take them into consideration.

what they did not know was that we were proud to be called idealists. I like your post.

welcome to protest in any legal way you choose. Actual riots don't qualify, though.

However, you haven't identified any of the things you're protesting, so it's difficult to offer much support at this point. I recommend that you describe why you're protesting and what it is you hope to accomplish. When you do that, I'm sure you'll find plenty of former 20-year-olds who support you. Perhaps some might even join you.

Goals are important in protesting. When I was 20, I was protesting racism. When I was 23, I was protesting the Vietnam War. So, what are you protesting and what are your goals?

Totally agree with this post.

Hell 10 years ago when I was 45 years old I was at the Bush ranch protesting the Iraq war. Whatcha kids protesting, and welcome aboard!

N/t

It was illegal for me to block that intersection. It's illegal to block store entrances. It's illegal to do a whole lot of protest tactics, actually.

If you mean non-violent, then yes--I completely agree. Not a fan of riots, they're scary as hell for everybody. This is kinda what this OP is about, though--disagree with the riots, but understand why they're happening, and don't attack the oppressed when they do happen. Like MLK said, riots are the language of the unheard. Baltimore only happened after days of ignored protests, and I still supported those in the riot despite disagreeing with them. Their perspective is very different from ours, just as mine is very different from yours.

This post wasn't to articulate all the things I need protesting--our whole society is backwards, if you haven't noticed. But for now, the simple message that Black Lives Matter is good enough for me. When you get right down to it, that contains everything we need to start a whole new society. Certainly one that's nothing like the current American system. If you ask for more specifics, I'd simply point out that when you were 20, protesting "racism" was good enough for you.

If I had a specific goal? It'd be to change people's perspectives so that they're at least aware of what's happening to black communities. After that, maybe we can start changing minds, changing ideas, and taking a look at our own communities.

We protested in pretty unconventional ways too.

I still fondly remember throwing dead rats at Nixon during his second coronation. They wouldn't let our float in the inaugural parade. A big papier mache rat, with Nixons head on it, that fit neatly over my VW Beetle.

If you remember back in the Occupy era, seems so long ago. The kids were out there and right beside them you would find the old retired people. I remember the picture of the old lady with the walker who was arrested. It seems that the only people who can make a change are those who do not have to hold down a job because they are young or retired.

I was hoping that a young person would come along and fire up everyone, like a Kennedy did, but instead we have a young man in an old body. I feel that way myself. I still like I did when I got beat up in Selma. I still feel the same when I went to the "Moratorium protests" in NYC. Mighty cold that winter, the film froze in my camera. I still feel the same when I went to the first Earth day in NYC. The body though is that of a 67 year old. Can't run as fast any more from tear gas.

Most of us old farts figured that the young did not care about anything any more. We got a lot of hope during the Occupy movement. It is time to bring it back.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

But in all seriousness, it did get pretty violent, not from us, but against us. Nixon really hated us.

But it did change the world enough and now it's your turn to change it more.

You have my support.

Last edited Tue Aug 18, 2015, 08:52 AM - Edit history (1)

MLK Jr., John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Malcolm X.

And that was a finishing punch in the gut for our movement. Instead of Bobby Kennedy becoming our President, Richard Nixon did. And the rest is history.

Robert Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy are the same person...

A friend always helps you NOT look like a dunce!

Glad to hear you say it. Those non-violent but active civil disobedient actions DID change things...but I'll die knowing I chose which side (peace & justice) to be on...and I can tell you are considering how wise that turned out to be.
I've learned (at 64...want to come live in southern NM in slightly primitive conditions? ha!) that being a 'good enough' parent, a 'good enough' partner is what I'm called to accept.
I love how you are thinking...

We old farts have left the kids a huge mess. I've been fighting this course for a long time. The only thing I have won is my peace.

The only things I can say for certain is vote for Bernie and then live self-sufficiently as possible. Good luck.

Bernie and work to live self-sufficiently. Looking at the future, to me that and Minimalist Living is a must.

Then you can tell your boss to gft.

And anyone else who wants to mess with you. If you can live with a minimum of outside needs, you can be free.

In the meantime, having Bernie as president will mean the govt. backs off of messing with people.

Don't protest for a better future for all by doing something that stands to ruin your future.

Getting arrested will harm your future now more than ever. When I was 20 there were no easy online services where you could get a background, Google didn't even exist and if it had newspapers and police reports were not online.

If you wanted a fresh start in 1994 you just moved to a new state. Nobody ran record checks back to other states unless it was a job that demanded it.

That has changed now. You get arrested while protesting for illegally blocking traffic, vandalism, trespassing or anything else and that will end up online- forever. Even if you get your entire record expunged and all charges dropped the online trail remains. Forever. In newspaper accounts, mugshot websites, archived versions of webpages...

Employers will see that- HR departments take who seminars on how to dig into a person past online. People you want to date will google you and see that.

It will stick with you, and harm you, for the rest of your life.

It's easy to get caught up in the fervor and make stupid decisions. Think long and hard about it now so it's one your mind in the heat of the moment. Discuss it with your fellow protesters.

Secondly to go along with this- know the law. Know by doing the research and reading yourself and not going by what other people say because they can and will often be wrong. Know what actions are legal and what are not.

And be sure.

A perfect example comes from the discussions had on here a few days ago about protesters blocking the interstate, with self proclaimed experts saying "the pedestrian always has the right of way it's the law". Well, they just heard that and repeated it, none had actually looked it up. I did look up the Missouri law- outside a crosswalk in fact a pedestrian DOES NOT have the right of way. But the "experts" who didn't look it up were more than happy to dispense their wisdom to people who then would have followed bad advice in good faith and ended up in trouble.

So learn to read the laws and look up for yourself what laws apply to your intended actions. Don't take someone else word for it.

And don't ruin your future trying to make a better one for all.

in OR and CA, marched for migrant labor and joined peace & labor sit-ins etc. alongside
SDS 'radicals' ... just by way of introduction.

I'm incredibly moved by your OP, the clarity & lucidity in the face of increasingly desperate times,
times largely uncharted in history books, times that are forcing hella-hard choices on more and
more people, and times that require nothing less than a mass revolutionary awakening.

... and I'm so heartened to hear your invitation to join forces with as much grace and respect
as we can muster, while we still can. I have 3 sons, the youngest which is just a bit older than
you. I sense they -- esp the youngest two -- are feeling the same as you, but haven't quite
found the words for it yet.

I don't know what else to say, except yes, of course. Let's do that..

BTW - This ^ is one of the biggest reasons I'm so thrilled and encouraged to be a part of Bernie's
political revolution, because it's got to start somewhere, and politics is one of the few ways Left
for people to (legally) come together to get shit done.

1. a 5-1/2 hour conversation with John Kerry on the eve of his congressional testimony (circa 1971).
2. a 1-1/2 hour conversation with Hillary about her globalism agenda (circa 1970) - one reason I will vote for Bernie.

I'm delighted to see activism back in fashion again. Delighted.

activism back in fashion again.

Too bad it takes a social downfall to get enough people off their butts or away from their cell phones to stop look and listen...

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Sign me up! I'm an old fogie, and can't really join you in the flesh, but I'm so with you in spirit.

Very nice OP. Thank you for this.

Every generation -- like every person -- has to find their own way. You can learn from the past ....even from ancient history, like when I was 20. Some of the social-cultural dynamics may be similar, but everything changes. So the approach to current events, while based on the foundation of activists from the past, have to constantly be up-graded and fine-tuned. That's a good thing.

To keep up with change, people must change. To master change, one must be focused. And that understands that just as to do good, one must be good .....to do more, one must constantly be becoming more. For it is by changing ourselves, with the goal of improving, that we change that which surrounds us.

And, as RFK used to quote, it's never too late to create a better world.

same fight we were fighting back then. And we were full of the same self-serving crap then too.

Your inability to draw on the experience of others shows, and it makes you look weak. It was the same problem back then. You focus on what separates you from those who would be your allies, and dilute your power while crowing about how important it is to you. (well, not you, but the ineffective and kind of laughable protests, that is).

We aren't in your way. You are.

We have watched this game play out before, and it is playing out again. Just ask anyone who lived through the 60-70s what the fuck happened.

pretence of revolution coming out of the mouths of spoiled PhD students and California rock bands.

Jerry Garcia became a rich landlord. Abby Hoffman ended up trying standup comedy a la Lennie Bruce.
Jerry Rubin invented social networking which he used to tout the multi level marketing of a nutritional drink.

I just shows that everyone has to grow up sometime. Some of us made it there sooner by not falling for the fantasy of youthful revolution.

We learn the wrong lessons from our struggles.

1960

Although there is a second wave 40 plus Freeper demographic that is just plain nasty. They are revolutionaries too and just as convinced that they hold the key to moral and political purity.

instead of becoming better people we burn the seed corn and proceed to set the damn farm on fire. lol.

The revolution in one region of Spain, on the other hand, resulted in Mondragon and less control by the fascist dictator.

'Course, they started with nothing, and being murdered by the tyrant, so they had more advantages than we did. It helped their focus.

in the midst of any revolutionary moment.

If you are looking for a revolutionary transformation of society, don't expect it from the privileged children of the middle class, whether they call themselves progressives or not.

As for Black Lives Matter and their white shame campaign, where are they when kids get shot in drive bys in gang neighborhoods.

You can't make a case by preaching to the choir.

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 08:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Tell us more about this.

you are fighting the same battle that our (great) grandfathers and great Uncles fought and shed blood for back in the late 20s and 30s....and MLK fought in the 60s.....the fight for economic justice.
This is a "movement" you have joined.
My generation did not do a good job protecting our grandparent's hard won rights.
The 80s generation did even worse.

The point I'm trying to make is that you have relatives. Fighting for Economic Justice is not a new thing.
It ebbs & flows, strong & weak....disappears and reappears with a different name,
but all the SAME movement.

OWS is directly related to the the Mine Strikers and Union Organizers of the early 1900s...
you are too.
Look to them for your strength and history of raw courage.
They are your family.

You will have to do your reading/ research outside the classroom,
because the War for Labor Rights has been "redacted" from our text books and classrooms.

We were lucky in the 60s. FDR gave us a list of goals:
FDR Economic Bill of Rights

Great points. Always a good idea to educate oneself about history.

Don't automatically assume everyone is an enemy, and has to be dragged kicking and screaming to support you. That becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Treat people as allies to start with, and most of them will act as allies in return. Treat them as enemies, and expect many of them to return the favour.

Do not miss this, it will do you a lot of good to remember. It is very easy to become a closed group.

when I was young and foolish I considered myself to be a smart young man.

Even before that J.D. Salinger wrote something like "A young man wants to boldly die for a cause while an old man wants to humbly live for one."

If your only position is that something needs to change, then you seem to need to go study and figure out exactly what is supposed to change, and how.

I have always wanted to change lots of things. To my disgust though, it was not even possible to get rid of the accursed Bush tax cuts.

Whether I stand in your way or not depends a whole lot on what you are asking for and how you are asking. It seemed to me a number of years ago (maybe four or five) that I was probably gonna die with a whole bunch of money that I never got to spend, and so I needed to do more to help the next generation.

MY next generation though - meaning my nieces and nephews. But the more I have been doing that, the more it seems like my nieces and nephews are kicking ass without my help. They are already, in their early twenties, richer than I am, even though I have been working my whole life.

The fight simply is NOT yours. It is not all about you or people like you. I'd kinda like to enjoy my final twenty or so years on this planet and I kinda think I have earned some right in that regard. If you gore, or threaten to gore, my oxen, then expect some hard push back.

"when I was young and foolish I considered myself to be a smart young man..."

And no doubt, as we age, we reconsider ourselves to be wise old men, handing out bumper-sticker wisdom as though little more than candies in our pockets.

Foolishness and pretense know no one age. Neither does sense and sensibility.

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My generation tried. We were hamstrung by our elders.

You guys are big enough to pull it off. Godspeed.

I love your generation. We have saddled you with a raw deal but you are dealing.

I love you and stand for you!

Yes, you have a new perspective, and I admire those young people who are trying to make a change and trying to make the world a better place.

That said, please don't count us "old fogies" out just yet. Many of US are still trying to change things, as well, if not for ourselves, then for YOUR generation. We see the change that has occurred from a time when we were in our youth, and we see the needs. We are as appalled at a lot of it to the same degree that your generation is appalled.

Therefore, I ask the same courtesy that you request. Listen to us, too.

We all can listen and learn from one another.

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

... and thought everyone over 50 was essentially clueless. I will suggest that having kids changes one's opinion on that score pretty quickly. I was, quite frankly, stunned at how much smarter my In-Laws got as I aged.

But you're right, F4 - It IS your turn to pick up the banners and resume the march we started. Walk the straight & narrow path, my young friends - and know that we'll be right behind you, when you need us!

I say that even though I was drafted during those dark days and was forced to spend two years in the Army during that God awful war. Unlike many of my friends, I got lucky with an assignment in the States.

The Democratic Party was much stronger back in those days. Organized labor was much stronger and made up almost 30% of the work force. There were not 30,000 corporate lobbyists in Washington controlling our economy. There was no Fox News along with over 1,000 AM/FM hate talk radio stations pumping out lies and propaganda. The Fairness Doctrine was still in effect back then. If you wanted to get all the executives together that controlled 95% of the media back then, you needed a large living room. Today, all you need is a bathroom that can hold 6 people.

That is just a small sample. Others here can list many, many more reasons its worse today.

But be careful, we oldsters are still fighting. We are on your side. We may not be as agile as you but we're still here.
Some advice...
Take care of your health. Fighting for progressive values and policies took a very hard toll on me.

I lived that fight in all aspects of my life so far. Thank dog that I'm married to a woman that has the same beliefs as I. That does not happen all the time.
You must remember it can be a long and very lonely fight. You may lose or not make many friends depending on how fervent you are. We are very vocal. It cost many a relationship. I forget to filter my beliefs sometimes. Hold near and dear those that think as you. Cherish those relationships. It may save grief in later years.

Pick and chose your battles, some are just not worth the fight. Your arm becomes tired swinging the sword and when the true battle comes you are fatigued. Be smart.

Stay true to yourself and you beliefs. But remember as you age your perspective changes. Acknowledge that. It's normal.

the battles you think are new have been being fought for many, many years, it's just the language that changes. Please don't disregard us old warriors. I don't think you will you seem to be a very smart person, I enjoy your posts.

Good luck on the front.

Thanks for the thread, F4lconF16.

from this 51-year-old.



K&R

We will be here for all of you as long as we can.
Remember that age in an illusion. We are all here now at one moment in space confronting the same future.

In my perspective (twice your age) the 60s were fighting the same fight that is happening now. That fight was scuttled in the Reagan/Clinton years and a generation (GenX) propagandized into a fully fascist regime. It took an illegal war and multiple planned economic heists (crashes) to break the spell.

Truly, this fight is much longer than that. The movements of past on generations were squashed by McCarthyism/Red scare/Cold war propaganda. Prior to that they were squashed by robber barons and their private armies.

The fight is not new. But it is new to you.

Welcome to the fight.

in huge numbers all over the country and the world. The fact that you and so many others ignored that and to this day refuse to acknowledge what we did I think results from the guilt your cohort has about refusing to assist us, failing to join us, for staying at home in comfort counting your money.
Such bullshit. Such a biased, bigoted, stilted view of history. It is time for that crap to be exposed as the heterosexualist lie that it is.

Ya, a grade schooler scuttled the movement.

Holding onto my money? My lunch money maybe. What was it back then? 50 cents a day? I think I used lunch tickets anyway. Nope, not holding onto my big boatloads of cash. Maybe i spent it on a fancy bmw. Nope, I would not even learn to drive for another half dozen years or more.

I was a bit surprised at the attack on you above. I think the responder has some anger issues to deal with.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Personal attack and very rude.

JURY RESULTS

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Explanation: "People like you..." then going on to personalize an important issue based on the Strawman personalization, is a personal attack.

A crude personal attack at that.
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Explanation: LEAVE IT ALONE.BLUENORTHWEST IS CORRECT!!!
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And it is rare that I vote to hide posts.
That is why I replied to your post above.

You have now been corrected. I am sick to death of people who exclude and edit away the history of LGBT activism in the 80's and 90's. It's bigoted and vile to claim there was no movement then, we were being arrested in droves, closing down Wall St, occupying the FDA, confronting officials and candidates and doing all of that without a scrap of support from straight people.

Perhaps you are ignorant of this history, if so that's very sad.

They do not look at you as people, rather ad assets to be exploited.

If you think you are too cynical, then you are not cynical enough.

There are only a few items to suggest although you
may disregard them at your pleasure:

There is strength in numbers, so you might want to
include your fellow latinos.

Ever since the election of Obama the hidden racists
have come out of the closet. That is an advantage,
because you can find them directly.

Lastly, I think the best groups to give you any advice
are members of OWS, because they know the newer
nefarious tactics used most recently.

There is always the problem of infiltration to be
aware of. The problem is needed trust versus great
caution. False Instigators want to create more
enemies for your goals.



Go ahead with your own revolution, and best of
luck. If in my town, I will try to join you!

but tactics that once worked will no longer do, and new tactics will have to be developed. Yeah, yeah I think the 'isms of the 20th century are pretty much over.

And I have been in the streets with many of you taking photos, recording and putting the story out.

But if I should offer a piece of advise... your fight is not yours alone and at this time, identity politics will hurt, at least in the short haul. In the long haul, I have no idea.

Here is a good read on this I recommend

It is Not Enough to be Angry

And trust me, this is a new moment in time. In my mind, this is also the crisis moment of late stage capitalism.

This read has some pretty hard classic marxist analysis, but it is not like I am not seeing it everywhere now. That alone is probably scaring some in positions of power. When I finally run my analysis piece on mobilization, it will not be run here though. This place is in many ways the past.

After reading your post...but too late, so many have said them all for me.

All I can say is I am glad I am not young now, because although there are many things in your life it lacks one thing that is so much more important...freedom. Something I had a lot of in the 60s and 70s although you might not think things are all that different now but they are.

Protest have been nulified...they are no longer effective for several reasons. One is because they have been normalized and contained. And another is that they can and are controlled and manipulated by media and infiltration and co opted...just as they were back when only now it is far more pervasive.

The only hope I see is in a political revolution that brings people with good intentions to power...but that is a hard one because people who seek power seldom have good intentions.
But without that political change things will just continue.

Good luck young folks, we failed you and I hope you can learn from our mistakes and change things.

Last edited Mon Aug 17, 2015, 11:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Earlier I wrote out an elaborate answer. Keep up the good work and question everything.

Go get 'em!
- The Civic Generation

loves you and supports you. It's your future and you are right to fight to make it the future you want.