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CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 06:35 PM Aug 2015

Of “Brillo Boxes” and “Campbell’s Soup Cans” by Andy Warhol

“Art? Isn’t that a man's name?" --Andy Warhol

[IMG][/IMG]

Brillo Boxes. 1964

Here’s the question: take a look at a picture of a real box of Brillo pads circa 1964 (good luck finding one, though). Then study the Warhol work of same. What makes the second one art but not the first one?

If there was nothing visible in Warhol’s sculpture to distinguish it from an ordinary object, philosophy professor and art essayist Arthur Danto wondered, what made it art? At a time when more and more artists were creating works lacking traditional artistic qualities, this was an urgent question.

“The history of art proceeds on two levels: as a sequence of objects and as a sequence of enfranchising theories for those objects." -- Arthur Danto

Leaving aside that Warhol’s sculpture was made of silk-screened plywood, not cardboard, the defining feature of the sculptural “Brillo Boxes” was, in Mr. Danto’s view, that it had a meaning; it was about something — consumer culture, for one thing. The real Brillo box had only a functional purpose. But how would you know whether you were looking at a meaningful or a merely functional object? The short answer from Professor Danto was: you knew because the Warhol box was presented as art in an art gallery. The Brillo pads to shine up your pots and pans were found on the shelves of your local supermarket where the cleaning products were placed. Functionality is key.

This led Professor Danto to propose a new way of defining art. The term would be bestowed not according to any “putatively intrinsic, aesthetic qualities” shared by all art works but by general agreement in the “artworld,” a community (an “electorate” in Danto’s words) that included artists, art historians, critics, curators, dealers and collectors who shared an understanding about the history and theory of modern art.

If that community accepted something as art, whatever its form, then it was art. This required an educated viewer. “To see something as art requires something the eye cannot descry — an atmosphere of artistic theory, a knowledge of the history of art: an ‘artworld.’”

As Danto says “What Warhol taught was that there is no way of telling the difference [between art and non-art] merely by looking. The eye, so prized an aesthetic organ when it was felt that the difference between art and non-art was visible, was philosophically of no use whatever when the differences proved instead to be invisible.”

Now comes Andy Warhol’s “Campbell Soup Cans” currently on loan to MoMA into October.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, what about the term “installation” itself? As with Warhol’s use of the term for his workplace as a “factory” instead of a “studio,” what does this tell us about his philosophy of modern art? Traditionally, art has been “shown” or “exhibited.” An “installation” is a term that could refer to someone getting a new muffler for a car. Or an air conditioning system in their house. In other words, an ordinary, workday activity that gets installers hands dirty, not some delicate operation involving museum workers wearing soft, white cotton gloves.

A brief note on my research for this essay when considering Warhol’s Campbell Soup Cans. I realized that I needed to check them out at my supermarket because I wanted to see if any of them still retain the tiny fleurs de lis ringing the bottom of the label (they don’t). However, when I was there I never remembered to do so, even though I regularly shop in the soup aisle. My “art mind” never played in while I was shopping for food, which leads me to give some credence to Danto’s theory about what art is.

About the fleur de lis: the Campbell soup company says,“We began using the Fleur De Lis on our Condensed soup in 1897 to represent the French culinary tradition and influence on our soups at that time. Condensed soup inventor Dr. John T. Dorrance worked in some of the top restaurants in Paris in the 1890s and studied the French culinary art during his summer breaks from college.”

Well, that is “interesting,” to say the least. Actually, Warhol never painted that fleur de lis. He used a rubber stamp of the image instead.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, is it art? Well, you are reading about it in an ART essay, right?

See how that works?

50 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Of “Brillo Boxes” and “Campbell’s Soup Cans” by Andy Warhol (Original Post) CTyankee Aug 2015 OP
If you have a chance to go to the Warhol museum in Pittsburgh, you should go. FSogol Aug 2015 #1
Thanks. I'm trying to get to MoMA for the soup cans with my art buddy... CTyankee Aug 2015 #2
Last Fall, I was visiting relatives in Pittsburgh and took my family there. We loved it and spent FSogol Aug 2015 #3
I am sure of that! It was such a smokestack place when I was at CMU... CTyankee Aug 2015 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author edhopper Aug 2015 #15
Soup or art? Makes me think of Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner's character Trudy explaining human Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #5
I got a HUGE laugh out of that! It's wonderful! CTyankee Aug 2015 #6
It is a running motif/gag in the play and in Lily's amazing performance of it it was very funny and Bluenorthwest Aug 2015 #7
some people get really annoyed with that answer and it makes me wonder... CTyankee Aug 2015 #8
"But is it art?" gratuitous Aug 2015 #9
well, there is a difference between satire and art or at least I think there is... CTyankee Aug 2015 #10
It's art edhopper Aug 2015 #11
there are so many philosophical dimensions to Warhol's work as it progresses CTyankee Aug 2015 #12
The tragedy of Van Gogh was edhopper Aug 2015 #18
He was pretty sick, IIRC. I did an essay here on Starry Night... CTyankee Aug 2015 #19
No question he had serious mental illness edhopper Aug 2015 #20
First I'll address Danto edhopper Aug 2015 #13
So what you are saying I think is that functionality is pretty much key here. CTyankee Aug 2015 #14
Yes edhopper Aug 2015 #16
About Warhol edhopper Aug 2015 #17
I read that Warhol had originally wanted to do comic book art but Roy beat him to CTyankee Aug 2015 #21
This Rockwell edhopper Aug 2015 #32
it's funny, he's trying for all those great artists and he gets this...it shows he was CTyankee Aug 2015 #34
Rococo edhopper Aug 2015 #38
mine too. By far. Mannerism is another, with a very few exceptions. CTyankee Aug 2015 #40
Magritte kinda did the same thing (love your avatar!)... CTyankee Aug 2015 #28
The Magrtitte show at MOMA a few years ago edhopper Aug 2015 #29
I need a better explanation of his surrealism. This could take all day... CTyankee Aug 2015 #31
Juxtaposition of things that are related in some way, edhopper Aug 2015 #33
Thanks. But I do think Magritte had a sneaky kind of sense of humor in his works. CTyankee Aug 2015 #35
Oh edhopper Aug 2015 #37
how does This is not a Pipe fit your definition of surrealism, tho? CTyankee Aug 2015 #39
Surrealism is more than strange paintings edhopper Aug 2015 #47
Ah. This is what I get, too. CTyankee Aug 2015 #48
Pollack, yes. edhopper Aug 2015 #49
"I've got a brillo box and I say it's art." johnp3907 Aug 2015 #22
That's a great song. I didn't know it. CTyankee Aug 2015 #24
It's from the album Songs For Drella. johnp3907 Aug 2015 #27
I agree with this entire post. I think these works are, in part, a commentary RadiationTherapy Aug 2015 #23
so much research is possible now and sharing of images. I couldn't do this without CTyankee Aug 2015 #25
I have stopped answering that question. blogslut Aug 2015 #26
You can drive yourself nuts trying to solve that question... CTyankee Aug 2015 #30
Back in the 70s I went to the grocery and bought a box of brillos. PufPuf23 Aug 2015 #36
I love it! What a great story! CTyankee Aug 2015 #41
Can of Spam PufPuf23 Aug 2015 #45
Oh, boy! Now you've got my heart! Not with Spam which I would never even try to eat CTyankee Aug 2015 #46
This should probably be posted here: johnp3907 Aug 2015 #42
There you go... CTyankee Aug 2015 #43
Nice! johnp3907 Aug 2015 #44
kick Liberal_in_LA Aug 2015 #50

FSogol

(45,491 posts)
1. If you have a chance to go to the Warhol museum in Pittsburgh, you should go.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 06:46 PM
Aug 2015

It's pretty amazing. K&R

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
2. Thanks. I'm trying to get to MoMA for the soup cans with my art buddy...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:11 PM
Aug 2015

he's had some health problems but is better so maybe I'll make it...

I went to school in Pittsburgh (Carnegie Mellon). It wasn't very nice then but has since come back...

FSogol

(45,491 posts)
3. Last Fall, I was visiting relatives in Pittsburgh and took my family there. We loved it and spent
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:14 PM
Aug 2015

the whole day there. Great museum, lots of Warhol works on display. I spent my summers in Pittsburgh in the 70s. No comparison on how the town looks now.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
4. I am sure of that! It was such a smokestack place when I was at CMU...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:27 PM
Aug 2015

I love that Pittsburgh has Warhol's museum.

Response to FSogol (Reply #3)

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
5. Soup or art? Makes me think of Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner's character Trudy explaining human
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:28 PM
Aug 2015

culture to her space brothers. The play is soup. The audience is art.

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/soupart.html

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
6. I got a HUGE laugh out of that! It's wonderful!
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:33 PM
Aug 2015

When thinking about this question I ponder "What makes us humans not other primates?" and I have two answers: moral choice and the ability to create art.

Thanks for the link!

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
7. It is a running motif/gag in the play and in Lily's amazing performance of it it was very funny and
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:39 PM
Aug 2015

also deeply resonant. Good stuff.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
8. some people get really annoyed with that answer and it makes me wonder...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:43 PM
Aug 2015

My answer is "who else decides?" but of course sometimes art critics hate something that turns out to be the next era of art being ushered in...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
10. well, there is a difference between satire and art or at least I think there is...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 08:09 PM
Aug 2015

maybe there is a division between art on canvas or in an installation in a museum and Stan Freberg (unless he is in a museum). But who knows? Freberg may be later honored as a satirist of his culture.

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
11. It's art
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 08:35 PM
Aug 2015

but how good, or original is it? And how good of an artist was Warhol.
I'll write more when I have time.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
12. there are so many philosophical dimensions to Warhol's work as it progresses
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 07:50 AM
Aug 2015

through his career, one could probably do a LOT more writing in specific critiques but I thought I'd get Professor Danto's theory out there for people to think about. I can see the converse of his argument, which would be evidenced by the countless stories of artists (e.g. Van Gogh) sold none or perhaps one or two of their works before they died and then became famous...they had either been ignored or rejected by the "artworld" of their day...

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
18. The tragedy of Van Gogh was
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 10:27 AM
Aug 2015

within a few years after his death his work was exhibited to wide praise. He died at 37, if he had lived he would have found fame and success by his late 40s and 50s.

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
13. First I'll address Danto
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 09:57 AM
Aug 2015

I don't entirely disagree with his take, but he is wrong about not being able to discern the difference between these and real Brillo boxes. Seeing them in person, you can tell they were created and not real boxes piled up. You can tell they are artistic creations. He is right that the place of installation is a factor in it being art, but wrong that it is the only criteria. The Soup Cans are obviously pieces of art an not the real thing.
That they are comments on consumer culture is the essence of the art, and a valid artistic statement.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
14. So what you are saying I think is that functionality is pretty much key here.
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 10:07 AM
Aug 2015

We are viewing art with a very different "mind" than when we view the actual source of the image, which is on a shelf in a supermarket. I think that is what he is driving at. It seems so obvious but that is a basic distinction. And of course the size of the objects, like the Brillo Boxes, is so different...IIRC, the original Warhol boxes were quite large.

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
16. Yes
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 10:20 AM
Aug 2015

I don't disagree that being in a museum or gallery is part of what makes it art. if only because it is put there with the purpose of making us look at it a different way. But then MOMA has a whole floor of commercial products that are meant to be look at for their artistic design.

“What Warhol taught was that there is no way of telling the difference merely by looking. The eye, so prized an aesthetic organ when it was felt that the difference between art and non-art was visible, was philosophically of no use whatever when the differences proved instead to be invisible.”


Well, the are not invisible, i could tell they weren't real Brillo boxes, and of course the Soup cans where images. I agree the location is essential for the purpose of these reproductions, but they are discernibly different.

I would say his ideas are more appropriate to much minimalist art. Piles of stones, or wood beams which are only seen as art due to where they are.

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
17. About Warhol
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 10:22 AM
Aug 2015

I have no problem with his work, or accepting his artistic pursuits.

My problem is his placement in post war and pop art. He only had two real artistic ideas and they were not original with him.
He did the Soup Cans and brillo boxes, then he did the silk screen portraits, and not much else. (seems he kept doing variations of the portraits until his death.)

Artist like Jasper Johns, Lichtenstein and Rauschenberg used popular culture images long before Warhol. I have even seen artist from the 30's drawings of commercial products.
So this was far from an original idea. And his work, while valid, doesn't go beyond the presentation of the idea, unlike the others I mentioned, once you get the idea, there is nothing more to look at. The work doesn't have any artistic allure of it's own. Compared to the works of his contemporary Rosenquist, also painting popular culture, but on canvases that soar with beauty and profundity.

What he was a genius at was publicity and fame, and he paved the way for the Hirsts, Koons and Kostabis of today. (which might be unforgivable.)

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
21. I read that Warhol had originally wanted to do comic book art but Roy beat him to
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 12:54 PM
Aug 2015

it! And the guy who actually did design the Brillo box tried to sue Warhol for some kind of copyright violation. Interestingly, it didn't materialize so maybe that is another example of advertising art and non-commercial art being different.

Oh, and advertising art! I recently read an interesting book on Norman Rockwell and how he longed to be a true "artist" and even painted himself with his back to us painting on a canvas, a la Vermeer and a little twist on Velazquez Las Meninas (which was later "adapted" by Sargent in "The Daughters of Edward Darley Boit.&quot

I don't know Kostabis but Hirst and particularly Koons annoy me. I did rather like Hirst's polka dot boats on the Thames when I was in London but that was about it...

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
32. This Rockwell
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:27 PM
Aug 2015

Notice his reference clippings.

[img][/img]

Rockwell's work is seen as art by many today. I don't think it is any less art than the overly cute Rococo works of painters like Boucher.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
34. it's funny, he's trying for all those great artists and he gets this...it shows he was
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:35 PM
Aug 2015

capable of making fun of himself and that is endearing.

As for Rococo, I was recently tempted to do a little essay on this painting



I really was. Actually, I don't really know what I liked about it or anything else by Fragonard. I just wonder if he escaped the French Revolution with his head intact...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
28. Magritte kinda did the same thing (love your avatar!)...
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:20 PM
Aug 2015

He was originally in advertising back in the day. But he was a Surrealist. I liked him so much better than Dali who I regarded as a pompous ass. But I had real trouble struggling with the concept of Surrealism as it applied to Magritte. I almost felt a little defeated trying my hand at an essay on This is not a Pipe which I really liked when I saw it in LACMA. Something funny and sweet about it...je ne sais quoi...

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
29. The Magrtitte show at MOMA a few years ago
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:23 PM
Aug 2015

was wonderful. It showed his progression as an artist and the evolution of his surrealism.

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
33. Juxtaposition of things that are related in some way,
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:29 PM
Aug 2015

but can't exist in reality. Think of them as dreams.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
35. Thanks. But I do think Magritte had a sneaky kind of sense of humor in his works.
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:42 PM
Aug 2015

There is a Magritte Museum in Brussels that I visited while I toured around on trains to see the Ghent Altarpiece, Bruges Madonna, Rubens Descent from the Cross and Brueghel's Icarus Musee des Beaux Arts (cuz I liked Auden's poem -- hey, yay I got to use "ekphrasis" in an essay!).

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
39. how does This is not a Pipe fit your definition of surrealism, tho?
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 03:16 PM
Aug 2015

Things he did like a locomotive coming out of a fireplace I get. But the pipe is simply a painting of a real pipe, so what i get is that it isn't a pipe, it's a representation of a pipe. But where does it fit?

edhopper

(33,590 posts)
47. Surrealism is more than strange paintings
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 10:57 AM
Aug 2015

it is also a philosophical paintings and there are more abstract artists that are part of the movement.
"This is not a pipe" is a commentary on what how we perceive a painting and what it represents.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
48. Ah. This is what I get, too.
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:56 PM
Aug 2015

When I get around to Full Fathom Five I will examine the question of art representing one thing when the painter did it and today can mean something different due to how we see our modern day world and what the artist could not have conceived of or anticipated in his time.

johnp3907

(3,732 posts)
22. "I've got a brillo box and I say it's art."
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 12:58 PM
Aug 2015

"It's the same one you can buy in any supermarket.
'Cause I've got the style it takes..."



Frank Zappa always maintained that the most important thing in art is the frame. I agree.

johnp3907

(3,732 posts)
27. It's from the album Songs For Drella.
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:18 PM
Aug 2015

It's all about Warhol, and also Reed's relationship with him. Brilliant album.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
23. I agree with this entire post. I think these works are, in part, a commentary
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:04 PM
Aug 2015

on the tedium of the question. I love the quote about Art being a name. That is really funny and succinctly perfect.

Thank you so much for your wonderful art history posts. Such casual education was hardly possible before the internet blossomed into images, text, and audio/video.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
25. so much research is possible now and sharing of images. I couldn't do this without
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:12 PM
Aug 2015

Google. Fabulous invention.

blogslut

(38,002 posts)
26. I have stopped answering that question.
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:14 PM
Aug 2015

My uncle, whom I consider to be a "real deal" artist, posed that question to me when I was ranting about Rothko-type paintings. "What IS art?"

Kurt Vonnegut furthered my refusal to define art through his character Rabo Karabekian.

Finally, there was a wealthy (now disgraced) art patron in my home town who once had an installation on his property: Three, stuffed, six-foot letters of the alphabet in red, green and blue, A-R-T. He liked to claim that when someone asked him "What is art?" all he would need do was point out his kitchen window to the sculpture in his back yard.

Art is art. What I like is what I like.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
30. You can drive yourself nuts trying to solve that question...
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:25 PM
Aug 2015

Were Rothko's squares trying to keep something IN or keep something OUT.

Now there's a burning question...

PufPuf23

(8,791 posts)
36. Back in the 70s I went to the grocery and bought a box of brillos.
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 01:52 PM
Aug 2015

The colors were red, blue, and yellow, somewhat different than the colors in this thread.

Using poster paint, my (ex) wife and I made a scaled up near exact copy from a cardboard box.

Except there were holes for a head and two arms and the bottom was empty.

I colored what would be the exposed part of my arms, legs, face, and neck gray-blue.

We fuzzed up my hair that was an Afro and heavily applied hair spray, talcum powder, and blue glitter.

Also applied hairspray and blue glitter to arms and legs.

Covered a pair of sneakers with the brillo pads except two made into clip on earrings (kind of campy)

The brillo pad box used as the model had a strap attached and served as a "purse".

My name is William and more often Bill but some folks at work had taken to calling me Brillo because of my then abundant hair of fine curls.

The costume was for a Halloween party.

Wife went as a beagle dog. She was really cute.

The only problem was I needed help lifting the costume over my head to take a leak.

The brillo box sat several years in garage and then was burned with other disposables when we made a move.

Warhol and being called Brillo was the inspiration.

PufPuf23

(8,791 posts)
45. Can of Spam
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 04:22 PM
Aug 2015

Later in the mid 1980s did a similar thing with Spam.

There was a charity event and those willing to act silly picked two slips of paper from a bowl.

Several days later we were to "perform" at the event.

There were several people that were knowledgeable about stagecraft to help us amateurs but otherwise our "performance" was to be a surprise.

My slips were Spam and disco (and never have been a fan of either).

Bought a can of Spam and got a cardboard box and poster paints.

Rented a white tux from a wedding shop.

Bought a black shiny disco shirt.

Borrowed gold chains from ex BIL.

Bought either a cassette or 8 track of Saturday Night Fever.

Scored the box with an Exacto knife for a head and arms.

Scored the box in general so would readily tear.

Painted the card board box to look like a can of Spam.

Brylcreemed up my hair into a disco do.

The curtains came back and there was a still can of Spam on stage stage under a spot light.

Staying Alive started to play and the Spam began to tremble.

Went to my feet, shoved my head through the top, and arms through the side in that icon Travolta move.

A strobe light came on. The music went loud. I danced out of the Spam can. The audience rocked out.

Stripped off jacket and twirled over head before throwing into folks and we all discoed.

Destroyed the white tux that night and had to buy on return.

My long ago experiences as consumer products both influenced be Warhol.

BTW Thank you for the all the art threads.




CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
46. Oh, boy! Now you've got my heart! Not with Spam which I would never even try to eat
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 04:39 PM
Aug 2015

but DISCO! I so loved it and it was gone too soon, IMO!

But my son and his wife are both serious amateur musicians and really disdain disco...or did until their infant son was seen in his carseat rocking out to "Stayin' Alive." Just the other day I went on youtube and played a little vid of the BeeGees singing it and I was overjoyed for the rest of the afternoon...



and while we're on the subject of disco...

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