General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDespite all the free media, Trump's rally was only half-full, and this in Alabama.
But you would not know that from the media's reporting. The info is generally buried in the middle of the page. Kudos to Rachel Maddow for making this clear.
Still a lot of people, but about half what they boasted they would get. You got to wonder how many Sanders or even Cruz/Carson ( ) could get if their rally was publicized like his.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/21/politics/donald-trump-rally-mobile-alabama/index.html?eref=edition
The event was previously planned to be held at the nearby Civic Center but was moved to the 43,000-seat Ladd-Peebles Stadium -- a venue normally home to high school football games -- to accommodate the crowd. It was not immediately clear how many people attended the rally; the 5,000-seat bleachers behind Trump were filled to capacity, but the east and west bleachers flanking the field -- which each hold up to 15,000 people -- were about half-full when Trump began speaking around 7:30 p.m. CT.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)the latter only Billionaires can afford.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)similar these "crowds" are, on both sides. It's obvious that white America is anxious to return a white man, ANY WHITE MAN, to the Oval Office. That's all I see when I look at these "crowds".
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)But that's just me.
This is getting kinda weird
since when does size matter?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)A former chief strategist for Howard Dean, whose 2004 presidential hopes plummeted from rock star status to also-ran, predicts a similar fate for the Democratic darling of the moment, Vermont U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders.
Theres a big difference between 10,000 at a rally and turning out 3,500 caucus attenders on a cold winter night in Iowa. I suspect Bernie Sanders will learn the difference in February, said Steve McMahon, Deans one-time top strategist. His crowds are enthusiastic and large and fun to watch, but the question is whether they will be effective in the long run.
Bernie Sanders needs to move the crowds into action and organize grass-roots support in the early states and so far, I havent seen any evidence that thats occurring, he said. He doesnt seem to be running a grass-roots campaign. Its a campaign based on big crowds.
Hes not going to have the money or organization to challenge Secretary Clinton in multiple states at the same time on Super Tuesday, Bennett said.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2015/07/the_bernie_sanders_bubble_get_set_for_a_flameout_analysts_say
I don't watch Rachel much anymore, but I was surprised to tune in and hearing her comparing BS crowd size to DT. No mention that the crowds look almost exactly the same.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I just want to return a person who fights for the middle and working class and isn't beholding to big corporations to the White House. I don't care what color or gender that person is.
BTW, Sanders' crowds are becoming quite colorful as more black and Hispanic people hear about him, but you stick to your meme.
On Edit:
Bernie in South Carolina:
(Carolina For Bernie members)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Does BS have SOME black support? Yes. But it's always been in the single digits. But not to worry, his newly hired black BLM press sec is on the job. I can see her memo now, but I'll leave it up to your imagination as to what it says.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)who is fighting for everday AMericans, shows your true colors when comparing a man on intergrity like Bernie Sanders to Rand Paul,
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)complain about Bernie supporters' nastiness?
Your remarks are just asking for hasty answers,
but that is what you want, right?!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Trajan
(19,089 posts)Dumping certain persons over the gunwales of the mighty ship DU ... It's improved my enjoyment of this place quite nicely ...
I used to respect you ... Who cares ...
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)gabeana
(3,166 posts)and he is running for the Democratic nomination for President, is that too complicated for you
at least he didn't start out as a Repug for Goldwater like Hillary did
oh by the way if Hillary wins the nomination I will do my best to get her elected that means donating, phone banking whatever it takes, because my party the Dem party is the best of the 2 parties for this country
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)And for that reason, as a lifelong Democrat, it's not complicated at all for me. Hillary was a teenager, who couldn't even vote, when she was a "Goldwater Girl". That can't be said for such liberal lions/lionesses as Elizabeth Warren, who was damn near 50 when she switched her registration. Oh, and there's Ed Schultz, Cenk Ugyr, Jim Webb, Lincoln Chafee (all former Repubs), none of whom I would ever vote for, and that includes BS.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)come again, so that means you would of voted for Strom Thurmond, George Wallace when they were Democrats or followed the Jefferson Davis of the world because he was a democrat? Not knowing you but I'll take a leap that you wouldn't
I am a liberal and the liberal party in the United States is the Democratic party in the south was the racist party
what was Sanders doing when he was teenage, he was a student organizer for the congress of racial equality and part of the student non-violent coordinating committee
I know even though Hillary was a Gold Water Girl, today she is a good Dem, I just prefer Bernie
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)notwithstanding, I'll decide who I vote for, just as you will. I know that's hard for some of you who despise party loyalists, but I will always choose the real Democrat. I mean, what's to stop any of the Republicans from switching parties, just like BS, and running as a "Democrat"? And as far as I know, BS still hasn't changed parties.
Those tired old Goldwater Girl talking points must have a shelf life. It's 2015 ferchrissakes. I don't give a shit what any of the candidates were doing 50 years ago, and that includes "marching with MLK".
gabeana
(3,166 posts)I was comparing your statement that your'e a life long democrat and you won't vote for him because no matter what he does or say he is not a real Dem
And since you claimed to be a party loyalist, party loyalist by definition votes for the party no matter what and since Thurmond and those like him were once Dems who held abhorrent racial views, that means you would vote for them just because they Dems? Now as I said earlier I doubt you would, but from your words that seems to be your logic.
And Sanders in the sixties was marching and organizing for civil rights while Goldwater was tapping into white anger, voting against the Civil Rights, hoping to make white people feel their failures were at the feet of the Civil Rights movement.
However, I do agree with you on the point that that it is tiring of talking about Hillary as a Goldwater Girl because obviously in my opinion great for the Democratic party but it is also getting old to say you won't vote for Bernie because he is not a Democrat, he is a great fighter the liberal element that is a legacy of the New Deal
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)posted at 12:00 pm on July 24, 2011 by Jazz Shaw
President Obama is under attack these days from all manner of nasty conservatives who dont care for his liberal, big spending ways. They seem to have found an unlikely ally, though, in the person of the only officially declared socialist in Congress Bernie Sanders. (Emphasis in original.)
SANDERS: Brian, believe me, I wish I had the answer to your question. Let me just suggest this. I think there are millions of Americans who are deeply disappointed in the president; who believe that, with regard to Social Security and a number of other issues, he said one thing as a candidate and is doing something very much else as a president; who cannot believe how weak he has been, for whatever reason, in negotiating with Republicans and theres deep disappointment. So my suggestion is, I think one of the reasons the president has been able to move so far to the right is that there is no primary opposition to him and I think it would do this country a good deal of service if people started thinking about candidates out there to begin contrasting what is a progressive agenda as opposed to what Obama is doing. So I would say to Ryan discouragement is not an option. I think it would be a good idea if President Obama faced some primary opposition.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/24/bernie-sanders-lets-primary-obama/
gabeana
(3,166 posts)or not, that was just an excuse, because you personally don't like him, your entitled to your opinion
I just hope if Bernie wins the nomination you would vote for him over whoever the repugs nominate,
I mean I don't care for Jim Webb but I would vote for him over a repug
oh and I did disagree with Bernie about primaring Obama, but at times I wish Obama was more progressive but considering the piece of shit republican congress, Obama has been extrodinary
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)And it has everything to do with being a "real" Democrat. BS is not, and if he were to somehow miraculously win the nomination, I will make no such declaration as you are asking for.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)I guess no democrats did since by your definition Bernie is not a Dem
But I do know a sitting Democratic President that was primaried by a real Dem and a strong liberal Ted Kennedy against Carter in 1980
It destroyed Carters base that failed to vote in the numbers needed against Reagan,
so whats your point again?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)gabeana
(3,166 posts)I got that from your prior snarky post about Bernie, too bad you had to go charade about the real dem canard
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)gabeana
(3,166 posts)What is the definition of liberal?
from webster believing that government should be active in supporting social and political change : relating to or supporting political liberalism
That is Bernie to me
you saying he is not a liberal is a canard,
You went at length using examples of Bernie that do not hold water in defining a "real" dem
This from his campaign site Bernie Sanders is a Democratic candidate for President of the United States,
that's good enough for me
like you said you don't like him, fine, yes he is a threat to Hillary, numbers moving in his direction, but if she holds her base and wins the nomination we will be working for the same goal in getting her elected to the WH
It is time for me to go, it has been a good spirited discussion
take care
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Everything Im telling you may end up being wrong, Bernie Sanders, the Vermont senator seeking the Democratic nomination for president, said early in our conversation on Thursday.
I had written an article concluding he had slim chances of winning the nomination, based on the limits of his ideological appeal. Mr. Sanders was building a coalition of liberals, as have past liberal anti-establishment Democrats, and it was likely to fall short.
But Mr. Sanders, who has surged in the polls against Hillary Clinton, called to advance a different theory of the race. I look at these things more from a class perspective, he said.
Im not a liberal. Never have been. Im a progressive who mostly focuses on the working and middle class.
The difference between a liberal and a progressive focused on workers might seem slim, but it nonetheless shapes how he envisions the potential of the political coalition he hopes to assemble. He believes he can mobilize a working-class coalition spanning ideological divides.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/upshot/class-or-ideology-my-conversation-with-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=176
You're welcome.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)That's why you don't like him, call him an interloper, took you a day to find an article that he says he is not a liberal, fine but he is a progressive, I believe in his vision,
in one of your headings you said you didn't care if he was liberal or not, so what was the point of the article?
just like Obama said it is not a Blue America or a Red America it is America, Bernie is trying to get a large coalition just like President Obama was able to
In a post that about Trumps inflated rally numbers turned into rally #'s don't matter your attempt to say the energized Bernie rallys aren't a thing
so yes the evidence points that Bernie is getting Clinton supporters
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)threat to the nomination. Trust me. HRC might have 99 problems, but BS ain't one.
gabeana
(3,166 posts)trying to be dismissive, go read yourself this little piece
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-threat/397286/
"The Hillary Clinton campaign now considers Bernie Sanders threatening enough to attack. Fresh off news that Sanders is now virtually tied with Hillary in New Hampshire"
and before you boo hoo it because it does not fit your narrative there are a lot more articles on the topic
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)What's so hard to understand about that?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Got it.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Damnit. I thought there was a difference.
HRC is only better than the Republicans on CERTAIN social issues that she's "EVOLVED" from.
Bernie is what the Democratic Party should have been all along.
think
(11,641 posts)Michelle Malkin freaks me plain out:
Setting standards for mean-spiritedness
Malkin's mean-spirited commentary has led Geraldo Rivera to state that she is "the most vile, hateful commentator Ive ever met in my life"[2]. And Andrew Sullivan initiated a "Malkin Award", a prize for "for shrill, hyperbolic, divisive and intemperate right-wing rhetoric"[3]
~Snip~
Critical Assessment
Ward Churchill's critical assessment of Malkin:
Well, she came out with a book titled In Defense of Internment in 2004[5], highly touted in hard right circles, that not only seeks to justify the mass internment of Japanese and Japanese Americans during World War II, but argues that the same procedure could be used against Arabs and Arab Americans today. Setting aside the squalor of her thesis, and the gross distortions of data to which she resorts in "supporting" it, the fact is that the bulk of her argument on the World War II internment derives from a fairly obscure right-winger named Lillian Baker. Yet Baker's material is cited nowhere in Malkin's book. In fact, she isn't so much as mentioned (perhaps because Baker, who passed away some years back, was exposed by Deborah Lipstadt in Denying the Holocaust as having employed the same "scholarly methods" as neo-Nazi holocaust deniers).
~Snip~
Publications:
Invasion: How America Still Welcomes Terrorists, Criminals, and Other Foreign Menaces to Our Shores, Regnery Publishing, September 2002, ISBN 0895261464.
In Defense of Internment: The Case for 'Racial Profiling' in World War II and the War on Terror, Regnery Publishing, August 2004, ISBN 0895260514.
Unhinged : Exposing Liberals Gone Wild, Regnery Publishing, October 2005, ISBN 0895260301.
Culture of Corruption: Obama and His Team of Tax Cheats, Crooks, and Cronies, Regnery Publishing, July 2009, ISBN: 1596986204
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Michelle_Malkin
[div]
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Get it through your head!
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Damn.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)short circuit
(145 posts)until then, he remains Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)short circuit
(145 posts)DNC is fundraising off Bernie Sanders' name. Care to explain that?
MADem
(135,425 posts)He is trying but he isn't resonating. That's just the truth.
See this article: http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/08/21/in-south-carolina-sanders-tries-to-court-black-voters
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Next point?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)That was the link.
Sorry you missed the dynamic.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)Is the 2016 Democratic primary a sequel of 2008?....(W)e have plenty of data to see a number of problems with comparing Sanderss rise to President Obamas toppling of Hillary Clinton in 2008.
There are clear differences between the Sanders and Obama campaigns. Most obvious is that Obama won 82 percent of the black vote in the 2008 primary, while Sanders continues to pick up less than 10 percent of black voters support. But the two Clinton campaigns have big differences too. The best data we have polling, endorsements and fundraising says Clinton is in a much stronger position now than she was at this point in the 2008 cycle.
* Polling
....Clinton is doing better in every single state. On average, shes doing 21 percentage points better. Nationally, shes 18 percentage points ahead of her old mark. (This shrinks to 12 percentage points if you just look at August data.)...
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/bernie-sanders-youre-no-barack-obama/
You were saying?
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)Saying "not yet, not yet!" shows only your age.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)are a provocateur right now, imo.
The issue is far more serious than you think.
The fact that Trump may trump all of us
due to his hateful and nationalistic as well
as xenophobic appeal does not seem to
bother you at all, it seems.
Strong bullies riding on those horses have shown
in history some grim results.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)were talking about?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)His love is baseball, I think.
In any case, his suitors have already been wrong.
You may win the battle, my friend, but we're all going to lose the war.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)"There is no one who will fight harder not only to end institutional racism, but to make fundamental changes in our broken criminal justice system," he said, drawing roars from the crowd of almost 3,000.
He struck a similar chord Friday evening in front of another 2,000-plus people in the capital city of Columbia. That crowd was younger than in Greenville, but no more racially diverse.
Sanders called for banning the for-profit prison industry, demilitarizing local police forces and restoring portions of the Voting Rights Act struck down by the Supreme Court.
South Carolina hosts the South's first presidential primary and is the first state in the nominating process to have a large number of black voters, who could make up a majority of the Democratic primary electorate in the state.
Sanders and his aides acknowledge he must get more black support, in South Carolina and other states, to win the nomination over Hillary Rodham Clinton.
It's not "sticking to a meme" to be accurate. Greenville SC is THIRTY PERCENT BLACK, but his crowds didn't reflect the diversity of the city or the county.
He does have work to do in this area, and remarking on it is not a "meme"--it's just fact. He admits it, too--as the link I've provided demonstrates.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)in an area of the country that looks nothing like IA, NH & VT. It's only a "meme", until someone provides evidence. Thanks for the evidence.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And fifty some odd years ago is two lifetimes or more to people coming up today.
Most adults in Iran never experienced life under the Shah, either--they don't think in those old constructs that bind so many older people. They're living in the here and now.
Harking back to the past is a non-starter. Words are a start, but words without deeds go nowhere. And words without concrete, achievable solutions aren't going to resonate either.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Y'all are scared.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I can't STAND the guy. I think he's a hate filled buffoon. But there's something to be learned by seeing what kind of people turn out for that shit, and where their mindset is.
I'd even look for a reporter and try to let them know that, too.
And what, really, have we learned about "crowd size?" It seems lots of people like to lie about it!!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)I'm not sure I get what the point is other than to have shit to talk about in the ravenous 24/7 media beast. Rachel's show used to be the pinnacle for substantive issue based tv. Sadly, she's scraping the bottom like the rest of them. I had to remove her from my DVR lineup. It's all DT & BS, all the time.
And I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be caught dead in a crowd of DT "supporters". I'm not that curious.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not only would I go to such a rally, but I would bring cameras and record every moment--it's a cultural touchstone, one that will go out of fashion early, but thirty or forty years from now, my descendants could sell the videos as curiosities, like mood rings or pet rocks. I'd ask people why they support him, I'd do a little home made documentary on the subject.
Watching Trump is like watching an ugly lizard sunning himself on a rock. It's a nasty looking sight, but it's curiously riveting in a repelling kind of way.
I have given up on watching opinion TV, except for the comedy show opinions. I can get the drift faster by skimming five or ten newspapers. I'll watch the odd news shows, and I bounce around and watch all the networks and plenty of overseas ones as well to get lots of different perspectives. I don't do Fox, though--that's not really news. If someone says there's something worth watching on, though, I might tune in. I'm just too old to worry.
I'm going to vote for HRC and do my rounds and deliver voters to the polls like I always do. I think she'll make a very good POTUS. I am not going to concern myself with the GOP Klown Kar, but I would go out of my way to see The Combover because he's such a bloviating ass. I don't know if there will be as absurd a candidate ever again. I doubt he will come to my state though--he's going to go where he has a chance of drawing people who like what he's selling....
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)that's because she covers issues that people actually care about. Maybe the two hour format gives her more time for in depth discussion, but I never miss it.
I agree, the crowd thing will become less of a media spectacle once they all start packing them in, but it just hocks me off to hear liberals like RM talking about these "crowds" as if they represent all of us. They don't.
The circus like atmosphere surrounding the two most talked about candidates is disturbing when it comes from serious minded people like RM. I expect to hear the lowest common denominator from hosts like Scarborough, but I have much higher expectations from liberals.
MADem
(135,425 posts)She likes her job--she wants to keep it.
This is just summer foolishness. It kicks up ratings during the doldrums, and it is light, fluffy, and something that will make people say "Jesus--look at that fucking idiot!" while they're pouring another round of margaritas.
She's appealing to people on vacation who will barely want to watch tv at all. Summertime is tough on ratings--you don't dare give people meat when they can barely pay attention to fluff....and "The Donald" is total fluff!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)ratings, but enough DONALD already. It's almost as if MSNBC has become his personal campaign representative. Him & his new orange hairdo make me .
Frankly, I don't think they can dump enough hosts to make it better. They're kinda stuck. If they move any further right, they'll lose viewers, and if they move any further left, expect the same result. If you can get an entire news day wrapped up in a fast paced, funny, and sometimes serious way from Jon Stewart or Larry Wilmore, in 30 minutes, why the hell would you spend the whole day at MSNBC?
Frankly, I see MSNBC going the way of Air America, and they shouldn't have to. Of course, I think RM will land on her feet somewhere, but I just don't see it lasting.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Time sure flies.
I remember when they tried to take a hard right, and put 'acts' like Michael Weiner Savage and Jesse Ventura on the air. When they got real crazy and had huge gaps, they put Jerry Nachman on for a bit. Some people regarded him as conservative, but he was really a pragmatist--he wrote for Bill Maher in the Politically Incorrect era. I told him if he went too far right it would be the death of the station. Little did I know he had cancer, and he ended up dying, and the network slowly started tacking back the other way.
I think they'll always trundle down the middle of the road with a few leans to the left, but I wouldn't rely on them for advocacy journalism on a regular basis.
If I could find a news outlet that dealt in facts and skipped the 'opining' that would be a nice trick. I already know how I feel about stuff, I don't need a stuffed talking head to tell me what I should think!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,243 posts)the facts, but that doesn't seem to be what cable is about. I'm often surprised at the ratings for the evening news. It seems there is a market for news, but it has to be in 30 mins or less, like Pizza delivery.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Trust me.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I think it was closer to 20,000 - and that's drawn from Alabama, Georgia and the Florida panhandle.
Elwood P Dowd
(11,443 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Especially when the numbers don't match, not even close
Twenty Thousand Considered Disappointing Turnout for Racist Event in Alabama
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/twenty-thousand-considered-disappointing-turnout-for-racist-event-in-alabama
A rally featuring a racist speaker Friday night in Mobile attracted a crowd of just twenty thousand people, widely considered a disappointing turnout for a racist event in Alabama.
According to racist event planners in the state, a crowd of twenty thousand would rank the event as one of the smaller racist rallies in Alabama this year. ...........
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)were filled to capacity. That's for the optics. Duh.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)there were enough people to support this
egomaniac. And that should scare all of us.
Munificence
(493 posts)exactly. We want to say things like "It was only 20K".....for fucks sake Hillary or Bernie can not pull that..20K is 19,999 more than should be there.
20K is a lot of people and the venue was pretty much changed at the last moment and they still showed up.
Just like during the midterms when we got our asses handed to us, the same type of shit was floating around here and 99% of the folks here were and still are disconnected from reality. What does that say about us? And then when he is the POTUS we'll all run around like chicken lil's proclaiming it was "stolen".
Obama has set this up, it was supposed to be different this time, the American folks put him in that position to actually do what the fuck he said he was going to do, they trusted him and he squandered it....the general public has the attitude now of "We've been lied to for nearly 15 years and our current President was gonna change it all and lied to us and only took care of the 1%"...who the fuck do you think they are going to elect now? This is a statement and to tell you the truth, it's about time it gets made, we deserve it. It's either Sanders or Trump, hate to say it even though I will be behind Bernie, but our chances are slim, we've pissed away 7 years and the masses are tired of "more of the same".
Oh, and wait for Monday when this stock market crashes, you think the hate is there now? Every "saver" was forced into the stock market as that was/is the only gig...come Monday all those retirees will see their savings cut dramatically...and let's face it, this is Obama's economy that has been built only on the market (stocks) and perception, most are struggling out there and not one damn thing has been done in 7 years to help them.
Reality sucks, we should learn to deal with it. I know it was a hard transition for me after the midterms in becoming a realist but I am getting there. "Perception" is good for awhile until it all comes unraveled when not backed with substance...it can only last for so long.
That's 20K people, that's scary but most want to act like it was such a small number, nothing like running from the truth. I know I am about to shit my pants, that's because my world is based on reality, not fuzzy little kittens and unicorns.
But hey, let's continue to label them all "Racists" "White-privileged", "Rednecks", "Dumb Southerners" etc and just fan the flames a little more in order to help convince them to come into our big tent cause that sure is working like a fucking charm.