It'll be interesting to see how much more of all this citizens will keep putting up with...

The birth certificates of adoptees are locked away and we are issued...well...something that is supposed to be our birth certificate, but because it is falsified it does not meet with the new standards. I've been able to receive an "emergency passport", but have not attempted to get the regular one.

Well nothing really came of it so I imagine people will adjust and get a passport. I do have one until 2023 when it needs renewed.

Real ID protects 'Merica. Without a facial recognition database, the terrorists will win.

giving bullies in uniforms, clubs & guns the ability to fuck with only those people
they want to fuck with, for whatever reason.

Patriot Act, Real ID, etc...

It's a good thing we have ISIS now to scare the bejesus out of the public,
or this bullshit would not be tolerated.

That's why we arrest a kid for disassembling and reassembling a clock.

Bin Laden is soooo yesterday.

Iceiss is the new "OMGZ!!!! Panic!!!!"

You get it.

How do passport requirements for Minnesotans allow first class fliers to feel safer?

most Muricans believe this.

Including a Yay vote by Senator Hillary Clinton.

Approved 261-161-11 in the House

Including a Nay vote by Rep. Bernie Sanders

All I did was Google.

Whow!! She really has no limits, does she. This is so sad..

Until she learns that it is unpopular and Bernie voted against it. Then she will issue a strong statement that she is categorically against it and we will be lectured that she had to go-along-to-get-along so it's not really about her vote so much as it is a commentary on the dysfunction of Washington which we need her to straighten out otherwise the GOP will win.

Or there abouts.

The Right To Travel

As the Supreme Court notes in Saenz v Roe, 98-97 (1999), the Constitution does not contain the word "travel" in any context, let alone an explicit right to travel (except for members of Congress, who are guaranteed the right to travel to and from Congress). The presumed right to travel, however, is firmly established in U.S. law and precedent. In U.S. v Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Court noted, "It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized." In fact, in Shapiro v Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969), Justice Stewart noted in a concurring opinion that "it is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action. Like the right of association, ... it is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all." It is interesting to note that the Articles of Confederation had an explicit right to travel; it is now thought that the right is so fundamental that the Framers may have thought it unnecessary to include it in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#travel

and haven't heard a single word about this. This might be a misinterpretation of the Real ID act, which was the subject of some panic several years ago. Here's an article from Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/traffic/realid.asp

here's what the Snopes link says:

Although I do remember when our state Legislature passed a law basically saying that the state of Minnesota would not comply.

And I knew it was coming years ago. There was a discussion about it last year(?)

official notice from the state. That's why I questioned it.

and make a point of saying, "I'm using my passport because I feel like I'm in a foreign country." The poll workers usually smile, but one, after she smiled, said, "Now, now, don't get us in trouble..." as she rolled her eyes to the fierce looking TeaBagger who was being a poll watcher behind her.

The people of the five states at issue are to blame for this. They had 10 years to elect people to office who would guarantee compliance. They failed.

Stupid democracy!

Air travel is federally regulated interstate commerce.

All the five states that failed to comply have to do is request an extension, then comply before the extension expires.

RealID doesn't actually help cut down on fake IDs. The "extra security measures" are easily thwarted. Because your RealID is still based on identity documents that are easy to forge.

So yes, it is bullshit.

Here we are 10 years after the law was passed and 14 years after 9/11 with no repeats of 9/11. Add to that the fact that this is just so much the most important thing EVAH! that states are filing extensions with just about the same frequency as they are adopting Real ID.

Extensions --

-- for compliance with anti-terrorism laws --

-- after a decade --

-- to add more years until they comply.

It doesn't really present itself as a pressing matter of tremendous urgency demanding that we BAN PEOPLE FROM FLYING RIGHT EFFING NOW!!!



Oh, and "Just shut-up and obey, citizen," is not a basis for law.

The people of my state didn't "fail", we succeeded in giving a big FU to Homeland Security and I'm glad.

but how would we get one out to California?

"Four states, Samoa lack drivers licenses that satisfy Real ID requirements.

"Until those states and American Samoa begin issuing licenses/IDs that comply with Real ID requirements residents from those areas would need to present other forms of ID, such as a passport, before being allowed to fly federally regulated commercial airlines."

A passport is an acceptable substitute ID, according to the article but the idea a passport is the primary requirement is very misleading and would be -- in my amateur estimation -- a violation of the privileges and immunities clause.

The whole thing could be challenged under the privileges and immunities clause.

Unless the Federal government funds the states so they can complyvwith the Real ID requirements, it is an unfunded mandate. If a state does not issue such IDs, then the residents of that state have a burden the residents of other states do not.

Therefore the Real ID requirements are restricting freedom of movement unequally. It could also be a Fourteenth Amendment issue.

Is DHS suddenly going to deny flights to what could be hundreds of thousands -- if not millions -- of people while taking the PR hit resulting from that?

I'm going to suggest: No

Such a move would result in the de-funding of DHS long before it results in strong-arm enforcement of the law.

So that means any state that challenges the law on behalf of its citizens will get to point that fact and demonstrate that no real harm is resulting from non-compliance; as well as show that the law hurts citizens more than it protects them. That pretty much obliterates any "compelling state interest" argument government attorneys might seek to offer.

Friggen' commies!

(note this isn't an endorsement of the policy)

Congress required ID which meets Real ID standard for interstate airline passengers. One such document available to all residents is a US passport. It also happens that the drivers licenses 45 states now (with some changes for some of those states) additionally also meet the minimum requirement.

Congress isn't mandating the states do anything. They are free to never issue driver's licenses or other ID which meets the Real ID requirements however those residents would need some other form of ID (such as passport) to fly on an airline.

Honestly I don't see any such challenge holding up. That doesn't make me think this is a good law or that it will do anything to make anyone safer but sadly passing stupid laws isn't illegal.

then counter argued that everyone should need a passport, and so on.

As you allude, it will be a lot of words over what amounts to security theater.

Air travel is federally regulated interstate commerce.

is air travel commerce or movement? I could see the government also presenting the argument that air travel is not the only way to move between states.

As I noted above, it is simply theater. Lots of work and hassle for little to no increase in security.

a compelling state interest.

You are not guaranteed a right to travel by air. You can travel anywhere you like by land without this requirement.

#2 the compelling state interest is to insure people who board flights are not hiding an identity that has been flagged as a potential terrorist.

The states don't have a chance in such a suit.

A resident of the state has no say in the sort of ID the state issues. It is beyond their control. For all you know they may actually wish to have Real ID and voted for a politician that voted in favor of the law but are being denied the ability to travel by air based nothing more than the happenstance of their residency.

#2 Compelling state interest assumes A) we gotta have it right effing now or people will suffer irreparable harm and B) the measures adopted are the least intrusive.

A) How often are people being harmed because we had a terrorist fly for lack of positive ID?

B) How does excluding entire populations of entire states from enjoying the same privileges as their fellow citizens impose a least intrusive standard?

Yes, residents have a say in the sort of ID the state issues because the residents vote in elections that put the people who decide those issues into office.

No way does this fail the compelling state interest in any federal court in the land.

Both of NY's senators voted for the law. That means NY'ers voted for federal senators that voted for Real ID yet Real ID was not adopted on the state level. Odds are those who voted for the federal senators may well have voted for state officials who would adopt Real ID compliant standards.

Yet those people are just SOL through no fault of their own despite their best efforts to elect those who would comply but you're content to impose a little collective punishment because authority!

There may be a question of state vs. federal power there, but unless they challenge it, the REAL ID act is the law. Passive Aggressive doesn't work here.

Sorry, we can't hear you out here. We're too busy partying down with our legalized recreational marijuana. Send us a tweet or something.

That seems rather unusual. Oh, I'm sure it's nothing. The billionaires have my best interests at heart, I just know they do!

They want you to comply with "their" rules of travel. You have to travel, so why not do it under their rules?

because when the Real ID Act was passed, our state legislature passed a law basically forbidding compliance. Our DMV was instructed not to include the "chip" (or whatever the hell it is) in how our drivers licenses are made.

And, frankly, I was glad. Fuck the Feds, fuck Homeland Security, fuck the TSA, fuck all the fucking paranoia.

So now I guess the Piper wants to get paid. Well, fuck the Piper, too.

I wish our Congressional delegation would raise some hell about this, and overturn the damn Real ID Act. I'm SO fed up with the National Security State running us around, herding us like sheep. I hope Minnesota stays out of compliance. Fuck Real ID.

nice

As of July 2015, the following states and territories are in compliance:[6]

Alabama
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Maryland
Mississippi
Nebraska
Nevada
Ohio
South Dakota
Tennessee
Utah
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming
The following states and territories have filed extensions:[6]

Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Guam
Idaho
Illinois
Kentucky
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Missouri
Montana
New Jersey
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Northern Mariana Islands
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Puerto Rico
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
United States Virgin Islands
Virginia
Washington
The following states and territories are noncompliant (New York and Minnesota offer Enhanced Driver's Licenses):[6]

American Samoa
Louisiana
Minnesota
New Hampshire
New York

It certainly puts a different spin on it then the article did.

The passport is the first photo id a child gets

then the national ID
then the drivers license

even more funny (from an immigrant perspective)
is listening to us library workers bitching that a social sec card (number, no picture)
birthcertificate (name, no picture no finger prints)
or a powerbill are valid "id's" but a friggin PASSPORT isn't...
course not, a passport is accepted all over the world, by homeland defense and so on
but a library needs a power bill

heh

i love my adopted country but you guys are funny sometimes ya know?

a small fee to use our library which is supported by city taxes paid by residents. Your address is not printed on a US passport and if you move you get no new passport. So your passport does not establish local residency. A bill in your name and a document that supports the fact that it is your name establish your residence which is what most library systems are interested in because they are local, city and county institutions.

They want to know if you fall under the TAX BASE that funds the library--that is why they want a piece of mail addressed to you (a rose by any name, really) in the town that is funded by the local taxpayers, where they can track you down if you kept that copy of the book you checked out.


They don't want people from OTHER towns using the library that is funded by the taxes from your city or town, and one of the best ways to figure out if you are a member of the tax base is to get a bill saying you're paying for utilities at an address in the town.

I live in NY and I don't have a passport!

Yesterday on local news they said something about how driver's licenses won't be enough ID at airports anymore but I changed the channel before the segment aired.

I don't have time to get a passport now, I have things to do. Danm, and I hate all the pictures I have of myself. I assume that if you can't fly out of NY, you can't fly out of Newark. pissant.

I am annoyed by the issue, not by a person.

I took it as you were mocking LiberalElite and calling him/her a pissant.

I appreciate they brought this to my attention, now I have to do something.

Written word is so hard sometimes!

are we there yet?

the Airlines won't let them do it.

In Georgia. If I'm forced to renew early, I want my money back. Lol

My experience has been less than 4 weeks.

I need to zee your papers.

it's really, really hard to get a passport. And if you are older, forget it. It is very tiring and time-consuming.

Sorry, I don't feel a whole lot safer, just more 'surveilled'

And in the very same building...

It's the id which is the limiting factor, not the location.

are not compliant. It's also a state that issues licenses to undocumented immigrants, oh horror of horrors! Oddly enough, our governor hates that, and apparently thinks it would be A Good Idea for such people to be driving without a license. Because they will still be driving cars, that's for sure.

I happen to have a passport, and that card that's good for travel to Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean, and it's in my wallet all the time.

But this bullshit about the real ID and flying has been coming up every other year or so, and I'd be pretty surprised if it ever got enforced.

and licenses. And terrorists blah blah terrorists blah

Your birth certificate
A copy of your most recent tax return or W2
Your Social Security card
Drivers License or State ID car
Bank statement or utility bill to show your current address.

Also they are only available at driver's examining stations not at the service centers where you can renew your license.

This assumes the person I spoke to knew what she was talking about. You need more paperwork to get this than you do to get a passport. It just doesn't make sense - though not much of security theater does.

BTW all but one of Minnesota s legislators voted against the license citing concerns about cost, security and privacy. They apparently expected Homeland Security to blink.

The whole thing is just another chapter in "Security Theater - Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid"

This is a link to what the state says we'll need for the license:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/dvs/forms-documents/Documents/EDL-EID-Identification-Requirements.pdf

You don't need ANY ID to fly on a plane. You will have to submit to enhanced interrogation techniques.

I know about this--I had a relative who lost all ID right before a flight and was accommodated.


I think this is typical ALTERNET bullshit. Don't see a single source or citation in the entire article to prove the assertion.

be found (aaah...FACTS!! So much better than ".............&quot :

saves a lot of time.

They love to get everyone's bowels in an uproar, with scary headlines and dire predictions of doom and gloom.

This reminds of the way the federal government withheld federal highway funds when states were slow in implementing DRIVE 55 during the oil crisis, or when the drinking age was raised to 21 and some states didn't go along with the program. It's a squeeze play. No one is going to be kept off a plane; it's just going to be a major pain in the ass, with slowdowns and petty harassments, until the states agree to play ball. And even when they do, it'll be four or five years AFTER that before all the states are compliant, simply because they aren't going to do an advanced re-issue of all still-valid but non-REALID compliant licenses.

Who thinks this will actually come to pass? That USA will require passports for interstate travel?

Now THAT says more about a mindset than anything else...

What's the difference between "4 states" and "3 states and 1 territory" to the outcome of the story?

US persons won't be able to fly within the US without a passport under either headline. Source? The TSA's FAQ on RealID.

You need to show up early and be prepared to wait, but you don't need an ID to fly.

I've seen it happen. Quite recently, too.


And you need to read that TSA FAQ carefully--right in there, it says they can verify your identity without ID.

Golly, that makes it an entirely different story!!!

speed up the process. Not sure why you're acting like this is such drama. A non-compliant ID is better than no ID at all (and speeds up the Instant Background Check process). It would likely slow down the process by five to fifteen minutes, tops--just enough to irritate.

This is typical ALTERNET drama, and you're eating it up with a spoon.

other than make it more expensive to get an ID.

"Here you go Mr. DMV clerk! Here's a pile of easily-duplicated paper documents, none of which actually have my picture on them. I am definitely this person. Honest!!"

So, why exactly do we need to make hundreds of millions of people upgrade their IDs to something that won't actually increase security, when none of the 9/11 hijackers used fake IDs anyway?

Perhaps we could stop cowering in terror, change our pants, and behave like an adult country for once?

When was the last time you got a license?

They don't hand it to you--they MAIL it to an address you've given them, and you've also given them proof that you live there via some sort of bill, usually--electric, cable, whatever--and you've given THOSE guys your social security number.

They do a Instant Background Check on you at the DMV before the license gets put in the mail. If your stuff doesn't match, you don't get the document. By presenting a REALID license, the person getting it knows that there's been a background check run on you at least once and at the time the license was issued, you were living at that address.

I would guess that we're not the ones cowering--this is a mutually-agreed upon element so that Canada knows who's coming in to their country, too. After all, they'll tell you to pound sand if you have a DWI from thirty years ago. They turn people away for bullshit reasons.

The nerve of the government, insisting upon "silly things" like verifying that people are who they say they are, and live where they claim to live, when issuing them government licenses and IDs!!

indeed.

Those things have account numbers for a reason.

And while you may be able to steal mail from a mailbox, that means you have to park out in front of someone's house for up to thirty days, every day, and hope like hell a neighbor doesn't notice you. Lather, rinse, repeat every four or five years.

Basically, you're telling me "Yeah, **I** can 'beat the system,' because I am willing to commit a series of felonies to **get around** all these rules!! Forgery and theft of US mail! Stealing someone's birth certificate and identity!!! YEAH, that's the ticket!"



If you don't give over your ssan to get your utility hooked up, you have to give over your license number, which is linked to your ssan. You're not going to get away with avoiding that.

Your friend in college could be in some serious trouble. When that sister goes to get a driver's license, that CA license will be cancelled, and the RMV will ask the sister to surrender the license. If the sister already had a license, her sister getting a new license in her name has caused her sister's license to have been cancelled.

Someone could end up in jail if they get stopped and the little computer in the patrol car pops up two licenses for the same person active in two separate states.

You can call it theater, or whatsoever you want, but you're going to have to live with it, unless you get off the net, get off the grid, toss the phone, dump the car, buy a bike, a burro and a set of skis, and do a Kaczynski up in the mountains.

This isn't about 'attacks,' necessarily, this is about building a haystack that is made up of distinct needles. And the time tro gripe about that was probably in the mid-sixties.

The horse has left the barn. Long, long ago, too. Biometrics are coming. In some cases, they're here already.

"Utility bill" is not SSN, name or birth date.

I renewed a license a year ago. I was given a cardboard license that was good for thirty days. I received my license about twenty days after I visited the registry and had a new, horrible picture taken. I've had relatives get them in two weeks, twenty five days, ten days--never "the next day." So, again--you aren't telling anything that I can believe based on experience.


You keep focusing on "attacks" and as I said upthread, that's not what this is about. I also said you should have griped back in the sixties and the horse has left the barn, but you ignored that and kept repeating your attack mantra.

Someone flying a plane into a building (and that's gotten harder--you need to run along and try to come up with a new idea) will likely have a PASSPORT--like the guys who did it last time--had. This isn't about planes into buildings. It's about personnel movement, it's about trend identification, too. TSA is not the only federal agency that is using this technology. Military bases, federal buildings, AMTRAK, nuke plants, a whole host of agencies are adopting this technology.

It's not about "security" unless you also talk about building a haystack. The haystack isn't going to attack any plane.

I see you are fixated on that theory though, so you knock yourself out. No point in going on because your premise is just woefully limited and you're buying off on ALTERNET's framing.

Get rid of that phone, now, and that computer--you can be tracked with those, too. If you have an E Z PASS in your car, you're tracked. Use a credit and debit card? You're tracked.

If you don't want this, like I said, you'll need to do the cabin in the woods thing.

And keep your eye out for drones.

If it isn't about attacks on planes, then why does the TSA need a RealID-compliant license to let you on a plane?

This isn't just about getting on an airplane--it's about accessing every federal building save the Smithsonian Museum. It's about tracking. It's about developing a database. It is not about "solving a problem" (as you keep whinging)--there is no "problem." This is about developing a heightened ability to -- yes, here's that word again, so squawk away -- TRACK personnel..

You're the one "jumping through hoops" because you've been focused on a solitary aspect of this identification evolution that was fed to you in dire terms by a sloppy internet publication. You're crying about "cost" when the cost of a driver's license has not kept pace with the rate of inflation over the last decade, and many licenses are valid for much longer than they used to be.

Calling me "utterly and completely illiterate" is just childish and rude, too--it also tells me you're "utterly and completely" outta gas.

Just a matter of time.