Good campaign fodder for many progressive candidates.

remaining 48% of Christian Americans. Not just that, his spiritual leadership reaches many Americans who are not Christian or people of faith at all. Bernie's success is evidence of the deep longing among so many Americans for something better, far better.

What does that even mean?

religious leader, and his very ardent followers do not belong to his church, but they hear his message, as do many others. There is a real thirst in our country to be a better people, better citizens of a better nation, and both men are speaking to it.

aka banksters from the Temple (congress)

banksters out is our job after all. Rght?

This cannot be undone. By the time this is over Trump will
will be toast, along with the other GOP liars.

Well done Mr. President.

Kim David and Ahmed Mohamed - who were they?

The number one issue in the world very well may be women's rights. To deny health care rights to over half of the world's people is a very serious matter. And the Vatican has been doing it for over a thousand years.

First resolve that, and LGBT rights, then we can begin talking about this pope's humanity.

Look at the big picture.

Women's health is a big picture. Human rights are a big picture. Pretending the pope's visit is going to change the tone of our electoral season in a sustainable way is bizarre and ignorant.

Over 50% of the world's population is female. That is de facto, as you wrote, the big picture.

Plus 100% of species on this planet practice homosexual sex. So that would be the Big Picture as well.

Yet the Vatican ignores these facts.

You're a woman? No Pope for you!

You're gay? We love you, but you're going to Hell. (gotta love that one)

And women should be forced to give birth.

THAT is the big picture for the RCC's victims.

The reproductive issues won't advance with his visit but his issue with treating women differently is at least movement and also on the issues of divorce. On the unequal pay for women, he is on our side. Don't throw away any opportunity to attack the right or throw out the baby with the bath water.

It denigrates us, condemns our families and children, says we are disordered and teaches that to each and every trainee. Francis says our rights are a machination of the Father of Lies. Francis says that.
You dismiss choice and human rights as if women and LGBT are not persons at all.

It is why the current Democratic Party will burn any allies on some issues because they disagree on another important issue. But Catholics are not a monolith no matter what people say. Should I call all protestants followers of Jerry Falwell? Why not if it is done to us who are not protestant Americans? Is Franklin Graham the representative of American religion or thoughts? He is considered a religious figure of many of America's religious. If one is a Protestant, you should follow him, right? He represents you and your opinions, right? If one is atheist or agnostic, the areas where one can take advantage over the fight over injustice should matter at least a little, right? What I mean as the big picture is using what ever presents itself as an opportunity to defeat the right. But yet you think disregarding some weapons is appropriate. I do not. By the way, as a Franciscan, I invite you to look at differences many in the US forsake, because we are addicted to labels in politics.

The church leadership that still basically resides in the first century of the common era.

That, as I posted, is the big picture.

I read that somewhere.

And you know, you promoted Francis here. He's not been assigned to you, you celebrated his massive moral authority. People reacted to that. To your actions. You associated yourself with him and asserted his authority. No one is saying 'they are all like that' people are saying to you that you dismiss LGBT and women in your OP. You. Not your club. You.

Last edited Wed Sep 23, 2015, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)

BTW, my Franciscan church is listed as gay friendly by human rights campaign groups. Judge not who you are talking to.

Please refrain from the bait and switch when you realize you can't offer a defense of the Pontiff on some pretty fundamental issues.

thank you for letting us know where we stand in the priorities.

Women will not have full participation in the world's economy until and unless they can determine FOR THEMSELVES how many children to have (or whether to have them at all) and the timing of it. No one, no church, no government has the right to deny that ability, which must include abortion.

It IS an economic, for them and for their families. Until they have that right universally, they will always suffer and poverty will be a reality. As long as women remain nothing more than incubators (to the church), this will never change.

Of course, I despise the Catholic Church as an evil organization for this reason. This pope may give people the warm and fuzzies, but, make no mistake, he is just as bad as the rest of them. Paternalistic is maybe the best thing I can say about it.

Reproductive rights and LBTG rights take a backseat to the New Dreaminess.

highly individual bundles of various beliefs. A "conservative," for instance, is one whose beliefs are MAINLY conservative, not necessarily entirely. To reject everybody who did not feel exactly as you did on every issue would be to stand alone.

AS for "deny healthcare rights to over half of the world's people," surely that's a highly inaccurate representation of his position?

It is not just denying healthcare, but a particular insidious denial of healthcare, aimed solely at women and their reproductive rights.

Does one have to explain to people the effects of such policies on the rights of women in other matters? Oh! And no priesthood for you, either. Get back in the kitchen! And, of course, the bedroom and birthing suite. And that vaccine that prevents cancer of your private bits; no vaccine for you because the human papilloma virus is sexually transmitted. So women will needlessly die of cancer because of the Vatican.


I think I will stand my ground here.

that Pope Francis should be held responsible for a pattern that's been present in thousands of years of social development and is calcified in most of the 10,000 or so religions on this planet, and certainly in the giant Catholic church.

It's very personal, of course, but I'm much more inclined to channel hope for the future than to focus on what is simply not possible at this time.

IMO, in so many ways humanity caught some real luck with this guy. He is a good man, and with him as the Pope we have the potential for real and giant change. He is already working strongly for women. He has spoken many times already in every country he has visited about his followers' moral obligation to wellbeing of women. Of course every society will interpret that duty in its own ways. One step at a time.

Note, it does not say deny ALL healthcare to half the world's population. Just specific healthcare. He has no problem with them getting old medication of having broken bones set. Just as long as they don't, you know, think they have the right to control their own bodies when their choices conflict with his.

ways to go with regard to these issues, I am otherwise glad to see him in our country.

Are you not happy that he is here? Do you wish he wasn't?

He can undo the damage to American Bishops since Reagan and its influence domestically. More demographic problems can emerge for the right.

policies. He speaks about a few other things but in terms of activism in the US and abroad it has been against marriage equality and access to contraception.
To claim that his moral authority on the issues he speaks about which are more in line with Democratic thinking thwarts the GOP implies that his moral authority also thwarts those of us in this Party who favor equality and reproductive choice for all. If he can not be argued with on the climate because he's the Pope, then you can't argue with him on choice or civil rights because he's the Pope.
So fuck that.

I had misgivings about a pope accepting or choosing our namesake. But I think we can advance with this pope like we did under John XXIII. We won't face as much admonishment now from Rome for our disagreements.

of antique bigotry on other things and not be hypocritical? You want your cake and eat it too.This OP is saying that it is not possible to disagree with the Pope so Republicans lose, but I disagree with the Pope too. Very strongly on many issues about which he is highly active politically. I have to assume the OP is saying I also lose by virtue of the Pope being the Pope.
Not even one word of qualification. The entire OP suggests that the Pope is right by virtue of being the Pope, it does not bother to mention choice or LGBT as it equates 'What the Pope believes' to 'what Democrats want'.
The message is very clear. We are not wanted.

If one has the right ideas on some issues, he is completely wrong to use on issues due to being wrong on other issues. As someone who grew up Catholic, no one I knew believed a pope correct on all issues. Yet you judge me as so. You also judge my Franciscan Church whose members marched in gay rights parades in support in my area as being anti gay. I think you should look closer. If you don't because of the pope, that is OK. But actions speak louder than affiliation and some at least should recognize facts. That is the way to recognize people on one's side for change.

We've moved on from the priest scandal?

Why am I the last one to receive the memo?

Uganda?

I haven't moved on from any of it. The RCC is responsible for the death and misery of millions.

don't think anyone is required to agree with him. He says abortion is murder they say it is health care. Who's wrong on what? If we work on the climate can we make abortion illegal? Is that what Democrats are saying?'

You are not unassailable when your spokesman agrees with both sides. What you are is vulnerable and at risk.

The Catholic Church is killing people

.. is perceived as benevolent and humane because
he speaks out for the poor and a certain amount
of redistribution of wealth.

But when it comes to human rights, he definitely
comes down on the side of paternal authoritarianism
against the rights of women and gays.

Fascism is combining government and business. When you do that, you are an enemy of the poor and the average citizen in lieu of corporate rule. Francis is nowhere in the ball park for that. Understand the terms you use.

... can exist under a benevolent fascist mindset.

Try thinking of fascism going back to its linguistic roots, with the
idea of binding and, in the authoritarian sense, seeking to control
the lives and the thoughts and the morals of others according to
your own religious preference. In the case of the Pope, this is
the way of authoritarian paternalism that seeks to severely
curtail and thereby control and bind, fascistically, the lives of
women and gays.

It's the trifecta!

They agree on far too much for my taste, but His Holiness is moving the ball leftward.

...wingnuts hesitated to claim the broad Judeo-Christian mantle?

better than prior Popes.

Did you hear that Women can now be FORGIVEN for having abortions?

Yes, the Pope says priests can now forgive them.

The half full way to look at this is this is a movement in the right direction.

The half empty way to look at it is the Catholic religion still treats Women like shit

Not only do Women not need to be forgiven, they should not apologize for having them either.

You just know the GOP is pissed off behind closed doors haha

shitting on my post. Sorry you don't get it. BTW, let the unions die as well. And anyone else who agrees on some issue with you but not all. Have a good day kissing corporate ass. I'm out for today. Funny, the righties in this party, those that agree with Republican economics but declare themselves a liberal, because they are for this or that on that page on liberal declarations regarding the culture wars, must also face the revolution coming. We can't eat fucking dirt or work from a jail cell. Have a nice evening.

The right wing, especially the Catholic ones, might have some second thoughts.