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Pope will address Congress - Sack cartoon (Original Post) question everything Sep 2015 OP
I really wonder how many RWNJs will hifiguy Sep 2015 #1
who will be the first moronic wingnut to disrupt the Pope? spanone Sep 2015 #2
Louie Gohmert? hifiguy Sep 2015 #4
it wouldn't surprise me one bit. louie appears unhinged. spanone Sep 2015 #5
Oh boy... IthinkThereforeIAM Sep 2015 #14
Yeah but that sneaky Marsha Blackburn navarth Sep 2015 #38
I read that at least one won't - LiberalElite Sep 2015 #7
so this dumbass can't even disagree with someone? can't abide another opinion? spanone Sep 2015 #8
Flawed climate change policies? BeanMusical Sep 2015 #12
I knew what RWNJs meant right away! lunatica Sep 2015 #45
Great cartoon Gothmog Sep 2015 #3
Funny I was thinking exactly this earlier today. DCBob Sep 2015 #6
Netanyahu is Pope now? nt valerief Sep 2015 #9
He Should Not Have Been Invited To Address Congress. NonMetro Sep 2015 #10
Agreed. PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #11
don't understand all the Pope haters around here hueymahl Sep 2015 #13
Any pope in a long time? LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #16
12 bad things the last 2 popes agreed on. Now tell us the things they disagree on. n/t mhatrw Sep 2015 #23
Nothing and that is the point LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #30
He's more "Progressive"? NonMetro Sep 2015 #29
You kind of are making my point for me hueymahl Sep 2015 #31
Understood. NonMetro Sep 2015 #32
the Papists and Irish are sullying our national purity! MisterP Sep 2015 #15
Note the American flag is being flown upside down. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #19
?? It's just sideways. n/t Beartracks Sep 2015 #34
Look closer at the ruined U.S. Public school.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #35
Well, this is embarrasing. Beartracks Sep 2015 #43
It's fine--when you display it horizontally or vertically, it's blue field to the left (closest to MADem Sep 2015 #56
I was speaking of the old vintage cartoon of the gator-like threat. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #57
Ah yes!! I see--quite right! International symbol of distress, is what that is!! MADem Sep 2015 #61
If anybody needs to bee preached to, it's our Congress. lastlib Sep 2015 #21
From what I understood, he is addressing Congress as Head of State from Vatican City, which is Ghost in the Machine Sep 2015 #24
That's What The News Media Is Going With, Too! NonMetro Sep 2015 #25
Vatican City is internationally recognised as a sovereign state nxylas Sep 2015 #36
It's just A Courtesy NonMetro Sep 2015 #41
It's being called "unprecedented" because it is. PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #28
Why are you being so doggone combative? The guy said he could be wrong and it wouldn't MADem Sep 2015 #65
Do object to the Pope being involved in politucal discourse between nations? olegramps Sep 2015 #33
Pope John Paul II Had Little, If Anything, To Do With That NonMetro Sep 2015 #46
He "entered our Congress and lectured our representatives" at the EXPRESS INVITATION of the MADem Sep 2015 #49
I Don't Disagree With You. NonMetro Sep 2015 #50
This visit wasn't supposed to be about climate change, or Pope Francis, at all. MADem Sep 2015 #51
You Have Pointed Out The Most Important Thing For Democrats To Remember: NonMetro Sep 2015 #52
Well, the Pope, I suspect, has his own agenda and it is in line with his church's doctrine BUT MADem Sep 2015 #55
"Who am I to judge?" was not a comment about gay people, it was about gay priests. PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #58
I am not "throwing that around." I think the BBC reported the exchange accurately. MADem Sep 2015 #64
How many other churches have one indisputed leader? MADem Sep 2015 #44
I Didn't Say He Was Deceiving Anyone With Regard to His Being Called A NonMetro Sep 2015 #47
Some people might say that a crowd of people smaller than the population of Boston MA living up MADem Sep 2015 #48
You're Right.. NonMetro Sep 2015 #53
Is "Palestine" a state? Can't find it on any map, so labeled, these days, and many MADem Sep 2015 #54
Are You Suggesting The Catholic Religion Is A State? NonMetro Sep 2015 #59
The Holy Roman Empire was once a "state" too. MADem Sep 2015 #60
Sure! NonMetro Sep 2015 #62
I speak Spanish, English and Italian (and a few other languages, badly) and he does sound MADem Sep 2015 #63
Thanks, great cartoon. n/t dae Sep 2015 #17
Ha! SoapBox Sep 2015 #18
Art imitates life Omaha Steve Sep 2015 #20
His mama still needs to slap libodem Sep 2015 #22
Today's cartoon, tomorrow's news story. Vinca Sep 2015 #26
Great cartoon Gothmog Sep 2015 #27
I like this guy better than the previous ones d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #37
I love it! K&R B Calm Sep 2015 #39
Same group of assholes on the GOP side of the chamber. usaf-vet Sep 2015 #40
Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) again? DemoTex Sep 2015 #42

navarth

(5,927 posts)
38. Yeah but that sneaky Marsha Blackburn
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:07 PM
Sep 2015

is always trying to steal first place. My money's on Louie. Stupidest mother fucker I've ever seen.

You have to put out the effort to stay atop the Batshit Crazy fantasy league.

LiberalElite

(14,691 posts)
7. I read that at least one won't -
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 08:55 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Thu Sep 24, 2015, 07:06 AM - Edit history (1)

I think a guy from Arizona, a Catholic, BTW - upset with the Pope's stance on climate change.

Here it is - Rep. Paul Gosar

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholic-republican-congressman-will-boycott-pope-francis-address/

-snip-
Rep. Paul Gosar, a Republican congressman from Arizona who describes himself as a "proud Catholic," is boycotting Pope Francis' historic address before a joint session of Congress next week.

"If the Pope plans to spend the majority of his time advocating for flawed climate change policies, then I will not attend," Gosar wrote in an op-ed on the conservative website Town Hall. "When the Pope chooses to act and talk like a leftist politician, then he can expect to be treated like one.
-snip-

I could comment on that "leftist politician" part but discretion is the better part of valor.

UPDATE: The three Catholic Supreme Justices won't be there either.

spanone

(135,838 posts)
8. so this dumbass can't even disagree with someone? can't abide another opinion?
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 08:58 PM
Sep 2015

i'm sure the Pope will be bummed he's not there....

NonMetro

(631 posts)
10. He Should Not Have Been Invited To Address Congress.
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 09:51 PM
Sep 2015

Using the excuse that he is a "head of state" is deceptive, and everybody knows it. He's the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Leaders of every other church, synagogue, or temple, should be given equal time, and so should humanists and atheists. This is showing favoritism and is assisting this man in his proselytizing here, as well as emboldening anti abortion fanatics to shut down abortion services in their war on women. I have no problem with the pope, per se, but he should not be addressing congress, and this is going to lead to trouble down the road. Let him preach to his church to his hearts content. Not our congress!

hueymahl

(2,496 posts)
13. don't understand all the Pope haters around here
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 10:21 PM
Sep 2015

I get that folks don't agree on every issue (me included), especially anything having to do with sex, but he is more progressive than any Pope in a long time, and can be a big medium for positive change.

LostOne4Ever

(9,289 posts)
16. Any pope in a long time?
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 10:49 PM
Sep 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]On which of these issue does Pope Francisco differ from Pope Benedictus in any way?

  1. Opposition to War

  2. Opposition to the death penalty

  3. Opposition to the Contraception

  4. Opposition to abortion

  5. Support for human welfare and the poor

  6. Opposition to gay rights

  7. Tepid support of evolution

  8. Support of Climate Change science

  9. Opposition to women's rights

  10. Protecting Child abusers

  11. Opposing ending priest celebicy

  12. Support Female Priest/cardinals/bishops



I will tell you. Not one. Not a single one.

All he is, is a PR spin doctor for the usual RCC stance of hate against women and the LGBTQ community.[/font]

LostOne4Ever

(9,289 posts)
30. Nothing and that is the point
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:28 AM
Sep 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Meet the new pope same as the old pope!

And, btw, not all the things I listed are bad. [/font]

NonMetro

(631 posts)
29. He's more "Progressive"?
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:16 AM
Sep 2015

So what? People are now supposed to bow before him because he agrees with intelligent people on climate change and with liberals on social welfare? Maybe a few more Catholics may finally "come around" as a result of what he says, but there is no evidence whatever that conservatives, who will nonetheless give him all the lip service they can in public, since it strengthens their position of tearing down the wall of separation between church and state, will "come around" as a result of what he says.

Oh, and yes, we know nobody in congress is being forced to attend his speech at the joint session. That's what everyone is saying, (wink, wink!) It's the same as the old school prayer argument: kids can opt out if they want. No one is "forcing" them to bow their heads and pray. Everybody in the news media agrees.

hueymahl

(2,496 posts)
31. You kind of are making my point for me
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 10:03 AM
Sep 2015

It's funny, because I don't really disagree with you. My point is, he is moving a giant organization into the 19th century. A few more Popes like him, and we will get them into the 20th.

Is he "progressive"? No, not by any reasonable standard. Is he more progressive than the institution he leads? Oh yes, by a long shot.

So that is my point. He is making things better. And that is a good thing.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
32. Understood.
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 12:01 PM
Sep 2015

But now that the Catholic Church has officially entered the public arena in this country, just as Catholics have just had the opportunity to promote their religion to our congress, in congress, and to the American people using our most powerful podium, we have the right to disagree with their views - publicly! It's all political now, and all open to public debate and discussion. For instance, I didn't disagree with the pope about abortion today because of his religion. I disagree with him because he's wrong and basing his views on a medieval superstition.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
35. Look closer at the ruined U.S. Public school....
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 04:56 PM
Sep 2015

The flag is being flown as a 'signal of dire distress'.

Beartracks

(12,814 posts)
43. Well, this is embarrasing.
Fri Sep 25, 2015, 09:12 AM
Sep 2015

I didn't realize you were responding to a cartoon different from the OP. Oops!

====================

MADem

(135,425 posts)
56. It's fine--when you display it horizontally or vertically, it's blue field to the left (closest to
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 02:44 AM
Sep 2015

the flagpole when running it up said flagpole). http://www.cqql.net/flag.htm
[center]

MADem

(135,425 posts)
61. Ah yes!! I see--quite right! International symbol of distress, is what that is!!
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:06 PM
Sep 2015

They didn't miss a trick....

lastlib

(23,238 posts)
21. If anybody needs to bee preached to, it's our Congress.
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 11:03 PM
Sep 2015

If any of them will listen, they might even learn something about a famous leftist named Jesus, who advocated for programs to help the poor and sick, and against tax cuts for rich people.

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
24. From what I understood, he is addressing Congress as Head of State from Vatican City, which is
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 06:57 AM
Sep 2015

a sovereign nation, not as the Head of the RCC. I could be wrong, though... wouldn't be the first time, and wouldn't be the last.

Peace,

Ghost

NonMetro

(631 posts)
25. That's What The News Media Is Going With, Too!
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 07:18 AM
Sep 2015

But it's deceptive. Living with 450 followers on a hundred acres of church property in Rome, even though the surrounding government agrees not to assert authority, does not constitute a "state". Also, even if we were to accept this definition, how is he "separately" head of the RCC? Treating this man - again, I have nothing against him - as a "head of state", the same as we would treat the president, prime minister, or even the king if a sovereign nation, such as France, Great Britain, or China, is absurd. Yeah, he's a "head of state" (wink, wink!)

nxylas

(6,440 posts)
36. Vatican City is internationally recognised as a sovereign state
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 05:26 PM
Sep 2015

You may say that it isn't, but the UN etc disagree. The only other spiritual leader that I know of who is also a head of state is the Dalai Lama, but Tibet doesn't have the same international recognition. Not very fair, but don't shoot the messenger.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
41. It's just A Courtesy
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 09:45 PM
Sep 2015

450 celebrate men, all church officials, living on a reservation in Rome, is not a "state" by any stretch of the word. I saw one comment on the internet today where the person said the Pope was the head of a foreign "nation". Now, that's just ignorant, but it shows how pervasive this myth is.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
28. It's being called "unprecedented" because it is.
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 08:11 AM
Sep 2015

Trying to play it off as some normal thing in his position as a head of state is bullshit. It's not the norm. It *is* the first time, so you're wrong about that.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
65. Why are you being so doggone combative? The guy said he could be wrong and it wouldn't
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 11:23 PM
Sep 2015

be the first time (that he might be wrong about something) ...no need to berate him.

In actual fact, a Pope was, well over a CENTURY ago, in 1849, issued an invitation and received as a head of state aboard a United States Naval vessel which was berthed in the harbor at Gaeta, Italy (the current home of the 6th Fleet flagship).

That was the first time a Pope ever set foot on American territory. It's not a joint session of Congress, but it was an official visit.


The vessel in question? The USS CONSTITUTION--Old Ironsides.


olegramps

(8,200 posts)
33. Do object to the Pope being involved in politucal discourse between nations?
Thu Sep 24, 2015, 12:45 PM
Sep 2015

Do you object that Pope John Paul II was in part for breaking up the USSR? Or that he should not use his influence to bring about accord with Cuba? The Vatican has been approached many times throughout history to intervene in political matters. Jesus challenged the status quo and was crucified.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
46. Pope John Paul II Had Little, If Anything, To Do With That
Sat Sep 26, 2015, 08:44 PM
Sep 2015

The USSR imploded as a result of many internal problems they had. Reagan had little to nothing to do with it, either.

As to Jesus, how do you know what happened 2,000 years ago in that part of the world?

But I don't care, one way or another, if the Catholic Church speaks out on anything at all. They're free to do so. But, when the head of their religion enters our congress and lectures our representatives, then the rest of us have a right, not simply to disagree, but to debate, dispute, protest, and otherwise express ourselves with regard to how the Catholic Church is affecting us, and whether or not their beliefs are affecting us positively or negatively. Because now, it's not simply about their religion. Now it's about their plans, the political agenda they have in mind for the rest of us. They have entered the public forum in a very aggressive manner and made it clear that they intend to have their agenda for the rest of us become law.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
49. He "entered our Congress and lectured our representatives" at the EXPRESS INVITATION of the
Sat Sep 26, 2015, 11:59 PM
Sep 2015
Speaker of the Frigging House.

Take it up with him if you take issue with his guest list.

The Pope didn't show up in DC and say "Look, all you bastards, you think you know what's going on--but you don't, so sit down and let me school you."

He was INVITED. By BOEHNER.

Who has been trying to get a Pope to come to Congress for TWO DECADES.

The presence of the Pope on the Hill was the apex of his career--it had much to do with why he quit.

Figured he'd go out on a high note.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
50. I Don't Disagree With You.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 03:44 PM
Sep 2015

Of course Boehner invited him, but anyone who thinks Boehner did that because he thought the Pope would in any way discredit the Republcan Party is naive. Boehner did it to to lend "divine support", as it were, for the agenda of the Republcan Party. That's what this was all about: bringing God into government - literally - on the side of the Republican Party - and that's how Republicans will use it to advance their agenda. His visit won't help Democrats one bit, and was never intended to. People need to remember: this event was staged by the Republicans, for the Republicans.

Does anyone seriously believe Republicans will change their tune on climate change or welfare issues as a result of the Pope's remarks? If they do, dream on!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
51. This visit wasn't supposed to be about climate change, or Pope Francis, at all.
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 05:26 PM
Sep 2015

Boehner has been trying to get a Pope into Congress for TWENTY years. John Paul II was in frail health by the time he died in 2005, Benedict dealt with the whole "Nazi" stuff and the child molestation issues, but for whatever reasons, maybe those, neither of those guys said YES to his repeated invitations.

The reason Francis showed up is because he said YES to the invite.

Boehner is a devout Catholic--he apparently took to heart all the admonitions of the American bishops and cardinals about those social issues in years and decades past, and likely was VERY surprised by the messages and messaging of this Pope. Maybe in a good way, who knows?

I don't know if "Republicans" will change their tune, but I would not be surprised if "Catholic Republicans" do. Really--the whole "No global warming" argument has been slowly dying with them for a while, anyway. They--most Republicans, in fact-- aren't using it as a leading argument anymore even if many of their members still buy off on that stupid construct. Some are outright calling bullshit on the deniers (see link below).

And it does look like Pope Frank, and Benedict before him (who did talk on the topic too and wrote a chunk of that encyclical) have slowly, slowly, started to move the bar:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/catholic-republicans-climate-change_n_7639784.html

http://www.environmentamerica.org/news/ame/ten-house-republicans-acknowledge-need-solve-climate-crisis-need-walk-their-talk

I think this was the first big chunk taken out of the wall...more, I suspect, to follow. It's by no means a done deal, there are still many more hearts/minds to be swayed, but when the only push-back they have against the Pope is to accuse him of being a false Pope and a paganist as a response to his message on climate, I'd say he's got them on the ropes.

This is hilarious and smacks of flopsweat desperation: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gene-koprowski-pope-francis-environment-paganism


Now welfare? That's a tougher nut. The GOP answer to "welfare" is "Give generously at your church." They'll probably keep on with that attitude for quite some time, and still feel like they're doing their part.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
52. You Have Pointed Out The Most Important Thing For Democrats To Remember:
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 08:01 PM
Sep 2015

John Boehner invited him and the Pope accepted. Does anyone seriously believe the Republicans would have invited the Pope to address congress if they thought he would disrupt or somehow discredit the Republican Party? No! They invited him to shore up their party, to lend religious support for their agenda to A. defund Planned Parenthood, and B. Ultimately to get rid of Roe V Wade. That's their end game, and the Pope did that, and also lent his support against gay marriage.

Now, some may say the Pope was invited before the Planned Parenthood smear came out. Which is true. But, does anyone seriously believe Republicans did not know about this 3 year smear campaign long in advance? Frankly, I think they assisted in the planning phases.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
55. Well, the Pope, I suspect, has his own agenda and it is in line with his church's doctrine BUT
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:25 AM
Sep 2015

by the same token, he wants to make his institution more accessible, more forgiving, and more USEFUL in the world--which is why he started throwing all the rich bi-----shops who were farting through silk drawers out of their mansions with wine cellars, sending the lardasses to work with the poor, and telling churches that if they have space they need to use it to house the homeless, not use it to make money for their pet projects. He's riding the ride (in the FIAT), if not walking the walk (in those scuffed up old brown--not red--shoes).

That said, his comment about the sanctity of life had as much--if not MORE--to do with the death penalty than it did with Roe v. Wade, especially with this little bit of nudge-wink coming out in the weeks before he visited:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/pope-francis-abortion-boston-catholics

And he DID go to the prison, and he DID talk about the 'hopelessness' of life sentences as well as the death penalty. He had a lot to say about a massive variety of subjects, all of them focused on social justice and basic humanitarian issues. Now, no one has to listen to him, but his acolytes certainly did listen to him, and they'll take that shit to heart--it will, one way or another, infuse itself into the national conversation...and that is the ULTIMATE definition of clout.

Now, this abortion article I cited, above, certainly reads like your average pro-choice individual would aver "Well, fuck him--not his body, not his decision, etc." (a position I hold, FWIW), but in actual fact this is a very large step forward for him and his organization, done in a sneaky way under this big umbrella of a forgiveness/mercy theme. It's along the lines of the "Who am I to judge?" comment with regard to LGBT people, which, while some people said "Not nearly enough" (and of course, it isn't) was nonetheless an enormous symbolic step.

To those not affiliated with his church, it's, well, bullshit, but to those who ARE affiliated with the church, and riddled with guilt because of their pokey and silly rules, it's a sign that change is afoot, the aircraft carrier that is the Vatican is making all preparations to get slowly and painfully underway, and people can stress less about those issues as years go by. I spent part of my youth in Roman Catholic Europe, and many of my old friends and neighbors are beside themselves with this guy. They are very pleased with him, in a way that I haven't seen since Vatican II.

I think Francis is hoping he can last long enough until some intractable bastards get too old to vote in the College of Cardinals, and his younger, fresher, more hip choices will continue the forward movement. He has suggested that he might like to retire rather than die in the saddle, and he may well pull a Benedict eventually and retire to his little dorm room behind the fancy building, do a little contemplating, and maybe do a little recreational travel in mufti, or something.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
58. "Who am I to judge?" was not a comment about gay people, it was about gay priests.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:15 AM
Sep 2015

Celibate gay priests. Not the gay community. Not gay people.

Y'all need to stop throwing that around improperly.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
64. I am not "throwing that around." I think the BBC reported the exchange accurately.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 11:12 PM
Sep 2015
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23489702

As he often does, he says things that can be interpreted in more than one way. This isn't accidental with him. He is a very astute politician, because he knows how to throw out the line in such a way that people will often hear what they want to hear. The line can also be reeled back in if needs must, without appearing to retract any substance.

He's advancing the dialogue on this score because his comments, though not signalling any real change, do signal an attitude adjustment--and that's usually the first step.

Is it perfect? Hell no. Acceptable? Certainly not. It's a step up from "STONE THEM!!!!!" But that institution moves at a glacial pace, and at least he's started the process.

On this issue, he's barely an inch off the starting block, and the race will be a long and likely arduous one--there is no "Supreme Court" at the Vatican.

Perhaps the next Pope will realize that the way to grow the organization is to be more, not less, inclusive. I suspect this guy knows that, but he knows that the culture isn't ready to endorse change. I think it'll come to 'em eventually. Time will tell.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
44. How many other churches have one indisputed leader?
Sat Sep 26, 2015, 05:24 PM
Sep 2015

Muslims? Nope. Sure, the King of Saudi Arabia has the title "Guardian of the Holy Places" but that doesn't incline a shi'a to listen to him on matters of specific doctrine. Jews? Nope. From reform to orthodox, they're entirely variable. Baptists? Lutherans? Methodists? Nope--there are a couple of flavors of all of those those. Mormons--eh, maybe, but they have a "crew" that makes decisions in a business-like way.

He's not the leader of "a" church, he's the leader of ALL the Catholic churches--from Cuba to China, from Brazil to Botswana, from Albania to Azerbaijan. His reach is truly global.

Hell, even the liturgical non-Roman Catholics acknowledge this guy. The Anglicans and Episcopalians give him a nod, even though they don't regard him as infallible.

Like it or not, he's recognized. And if he's recognized, he's not "deceiving" anyone. They know what he is, what his role is, and how he exercises his authority. No one is being hornswaggled. You can pipe up, certainly, and write your Senators and your representatives and demand that they strip him of his diplomatic status, and demand, too, that our UN rep call for the same at the next General Assembly, but I suspect that your earnest gripe and five bucks will get you some burnt coffee at Starbucks.

His 'power' has to do with his influence across nations. Other religions don't seem able to do this with any authority or unity. Their religious leaders follow the "All politics is local" paradigm, as opposed to trying to compete with a "universal church" theme.

You can like it or not like it, but it is what it is. As long as there are a lot of people in the world who affiliate in some fashion with the Roman Catholics, either directly or aspirationally, he will continue to hold that power.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
47. I Didn't Say He Was Deceiving Anyone With Regard to His Being Called A
Sat Sep 26, 2015, 09:08 PM
Sep 2015

"Head Of State". I said calling him a head of state was deceptive. 450 Brothers living on a 100 acre reservation in Rome doesn't constitute a "state", and if UN and everybody else wants to call it one, they all full of it, IMO. The Vatican, IMO, is more like a big monastery.

Now, it seems to me you are saying that if all religions were organized like the Catholic religion, they would all have power. But since they are not organized that way, they don't - and tough luck for them, eh? They aren't deserving to share in power with Catholics who are better organized? In other words, due to their superior organization, Catholics have a right to rule, and others have no say in the matter; and people like me, with our "gripes" should just be quiet about it, because there is nothing we can do about it, anyway?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
48. Some people might say that a crowd of people smaller than the population of Boston MA living up
Sat Sep 26, 2015, 10:04 PM
Sep 2015

in a rural environment where the "cities" would be called small towns anywhere else don't constitute a state.

They would also be incorrect.

It ain't the size of the ship, necessarily--it's the amount of CLOUT exercised by the leadership.

The clout of old Frank is global.

I told you that you had "say" in the matter--and your "say" and five bucks would get you some burnt coffee in a paper cup. That's just fact. Most people don't agree with your take on this, which is why Frank gets the full treatment everywhere he goes.

Don't shoot the messenger. That won't do any good, EITHER.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
53. You're Right..
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 08:17 PM
Sep 2015

But when it comes to the Vatican, it doesn't matter to me if everyone else in the world disagrees with me, and even if legal scholars and the UN disagree. I will never consider 450 dudes who live in what amounts to a glorified monastery a "state." But, yes, the man has a great deal of clout. On that point we agree. But 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide doesn't constitute a "state", either. Or does it?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
54. Is "Palestine" a state? Can't find it on any map, so labeled, these days, and many
Sun Sep 27, 2015, 11:55 PM
Sep 2015

people who identify as Palestinian are scattered all over the globe. I have a globe that is so old, it has Palestine on it.




You can ask where is Tibet, where is Armenia, where is Kurdistan, too...in the minds and hearts of the people who identify with these nationalities/cultures/ethnicities, they are part and parcel of the state--with, or without, their autonomy or their land.

The more people immigrate and emigrate, the more these lines will be blurred. Maybe one day the earth will be like it is in all the futuristic films of days gone by; with something that looks like the UN being "the" governing body, and cooperation being the watchword around the globe.

When I was young I used to think that could happen in my lifetime. I don't think that anymore. But maybe one day...?

NonMetro

(631 posts)
59. Are You Suggesting The Catholic Religion Is A State?
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:53 AM
Sep 2015

I think I see where you are going with this. Armenia, Kurdistan, and Palestine are "states" in the minds of those that wish they were and who identify with them. But they also have geographical locations, and that seems a bit different than calling 1.2 billion Catholics scattered around the globe a "state". That would be like saying Islam is a "state". Oh wait! I guess it is now, at least for some Muslims? Even so, however, Islam is a religion, and I wouldn't want to give anyone the impression that Muslims form a "state" in our midst.

Hm...??

MADem

(135,425 posts)
60. The Holy Roman Empire was once a "state" too.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:01 PM
Sep 2015

As was the Ottoman Empire.

Why is it impossible for those Roman Catholics to have the same 'sense of nationality' that drives ISIS to attempt to physically restore the Caliphate?

I think that the Catholics have reconciled the 'render unto Caesar' paradigm, and have no desire to physically reconstitute their "state," but the connection still holds in their minds. It also holds in the minds of people who once fell under the shadow of Rome (like Tudor England) and that is highlighted when people like Tony and Cherie Blair convert to Catholicism, and what drove the rumors about the late Princess Diana contemplating conversion as well. I was watching the Pope's mass in Philadelphia yesterday, and I noticed how his service shifted seamlessly from English to Spanish to Vietnamese to Latin, and the audience didn't miss a beat.

NonMetro

(631 posts)
62. Sure!
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:03 PM
Sep 2015

I didn't see that, but I saw him give the speech at the 9/11 memorial, and he apologized to the audience for not speaking in English. He indicated it was very uncomfortable for him - and I could see that when he was speaking in congress. He must have had to practice that like crazy! He did OK with it, but it was occasionally difficult to make out some of his words. When he said Dorothy Day, I though he said Doris Day, and I wondered "what th...?!" So,I had to look that up later.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
63. I speak Spanish, English and Italian (and a few other languages, badly) and he does sound
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:50 PM
Sep 2015

like a Spanish speaker who REALLY doesn't like speaking English aloud. I think he understands English much better than he speaks it, and if I had to guess I'd say he is probably very fluent reading it, and conversational or better hearing it. It is obvious that he's struggling to not pronounce every damn vowel when he speaks English and speaking slowly so he doesn't muck it up too badly.

His Italian has a slight Spanish accent, which makes it charming. He plainly learned that in the home, as both his parents were Italian immigrants.

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