jumping off the Golden Gate bridge. A recurring theme was that as soon as they let go the railing they realized they could deal with their problems. Most went on to lead productive meaningful lives. Only one person later committed suicide.

You don't get that chance with a gun.

2% rate of survival......

more fatal:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

85% for guns
98% for golden gate
Probably 99.9%+ for high falls onto land

they realize it was a mistake. A terrible mistake they cannot correct.

He told me it didn't hurt at the moment he shot himself, but he felt very bad because there was blood all over and people running around upset all over. He just wanted to die, not create a huge commotion but that didn't happen. He said he regretted trying to shoot himself, that it really messed up his life, surviving.

who did that. He blinded himself. He was an exceptionally nice man and the kids loved him. This business of people making choices is bullshit. Suicide is not a natural and rational act.

suicide. It's sad but it's a personal choice and a right.

If I am reading correctly, you are saying that being shot in a mass gathering is being a suicide. Do you not mean the shooters and not the victims end up committing suicide?

So when the 30,000 of firearm deaths is being tossed around, 20,000 are by shooting their self.

That often seems the reason for a police shooting.

"Put the knife down! Put the knife down!" You have to put the knife down."

If this guy surrendered he would probably get 10-20 years in jail with no help while he was in jail. I knew someone who had to serve 30 days and was refused their high blood pressure medicine while incarcerated. Had panic attacks and a rapid heartbeat and no one cared. There is too much along the chain that does not care even though the police officers involved showed real human compassion and tried what they could. Maybe there would be less suicides if the system would respond with real help all the way along the chain. JMHO.
-Airplane

Because almost every person in jail complains about this or that medical problem. So it's hard t I sort out who truly needs help and meds (medical history should be the main factor)

The real problem is that there are far too many people in damn jails and prisons, most due to drugs.

Give an appreciation for what a difficult job these guys have.

"A horrible crash."

"Accidental overdose."

....

There are plenty of "cleaning his gun" type accidents.

People have the right to choose suicide. Many pick a gun to do the deed (although I sure wouldn't!). It's a shame if they did it on impulse, but again it is their choice.

"Suicide is the second-most common cause of death for Americans between 15 and 34."

I want my kids to deal with whatever temporary emotional crisis they're facing -- without the easy choice of a bullet to the head.

Everyone has moments of heartbreak. Partners leave you, you get laid off, you have a fight with the wife. Take away the gun, and you'll work through it, and find happiness on the other side. The gun takes away that door to happiness.

A gun makes it easier to do, for those who are willing to have such a violent death, but if there is no gun, suicide can still occur.

If she had a time machine my mom would probably go back and give him some pills to save a cleanup job.

He was a miserable violent asshole who ruined every life he touched. Killing himself probably saved my mother's life, it certainly saved her and my younger sister a lot of trips to the ER. Blowing a hole in his demented brain was the only decent thing he ever did and he should have done it years earlier. Every now and then she gets in a wistful mood and remembers his happier moments (he was an untreated manic depressive, so these were usually when he was spending money they didn't have) but honestly that's really fucking rare and interspersed with months on end of being glad he's gone.

That's some real truth about living with the mentally ill and surviving suicide. Everybody who saw a documentary once can feel free to get their feelings hurt by that but I don't give a fuck.

but it is not even close to being universally representative of people who have mental illnesses.

When I was growing up, in a class of 200 people, 3 shot themselves within months of each other. I only went to one of the funerals and the physical sadness that emanated from his family was painful for anyone who has a heart. I will never forget that and it is still very clear to me that suicide leaves a long tragic trail. The easier it is, the more people who are affected. Suicide, homicide, and accidental shootings are all tragic.

Every suicide has a devastating emotional and economic impact on many people.

As do accidental shootings. The shooters in those situations probably suffer for the rest of their lives. I can't imagine what that would do to a kid.

that her 13 year old daughter had been seriously discussing suicide with a friend. Do you think they should have the "choice" to do that?

She is not of legal age.

Short of locking someone up, there is no way to take away their ability to kill themselves if they so decide.

And as a child, she should not have access to a gun - at all, but there are countless ways to commit suicide.

While I agree that removing guns from the equation, as the Army learned from treating PTSD, forced confiscation of guns can become a barrier to people seeking help.

Rational thought is not a hallmark of suicidal people so the issue requires some sensitivity.

are activity encouraging irrational thought....

I'm looking at you NRA, and Faux, and the GOP, and.....

No matter how hard anyone tries to spin things. Quick, easy and more often lethal that other ways.

The big difference is what laws do you propose to cut this number. The funny thing is the RKBA side calls for better programs in mental health and that is immediately dismissed as an NRA talking point.

Sad thing is it is true for many.

Gun owners should have better access to mental health programs.

EVERYONE should have better access to mental health programs.

****ing sad

That's an improvement from his usual threads.

I think ALL people deserve better mental health care. Suicides are not just done by firearms.

Thanks for proving our point about having a civil discussion without insults.

The topic here is suicide by gun. Please try to stay on topic

Do you have any suggestions on better access to mental health treatment for gun owners?

I would suggest that if one identified as a gun owner when seeking treatment, they may receive more urgent care.

Why just firearm owners?
Here's my suggestion, end the WOD and invest the funds into the mental health system FOR ALL.
That sound like a plan?

that would also cut down on gang gun murders. Oh wait, that is just another NRA talking point, lol

should get immediate and caring treatment, a suicide is a death and it does not matter the means. By your logic, the others would take a back seat and that is wrong. I think single payer and much more funding would be a great start.

and once again, I know you have been told many time SM. This is not your group, you have not hosting privileges in this group so quit trying to act like a host, you are not one here. I know that just kills you. I will post anything I want to and the topic is suicide, I think they should ALL be addressed.

And if there is access to a gun it should be even more urgent, as in call 911.

not just a suicidal person with access to a firearm
Why are you just focusing on suicides by firearms?

and YOU are focusing on only suicides by firearms.
Why not all suicides?

be separated into different groups.

until and unless it involves someone they care about. Unless a celebrity death is involved, the suicide isn't even mentioned in the obituary/public notice of the death.

People are frightened of -social violence-, which is to say acts of violence in which simply being a member of society raises the risk of being a victim. And when acts of social violence involved neighborhoods and places generally free of social violence the outcry is greatest.

I can understand a family member not posting that it was a suicide, especially when they are writing in within a day of the death.

If its a celebrity, the newpaper will write the obituary, and they are a neutral party, so its more likely to be mentioned since most people already know.

and really doesn't have a huge fear of suicide except as part of mass murder plus suicide.

What you suggest could mean that society is as much embarrassed by suicide as it is fearful of it.

It could be used against you by an angry partner. Used for suicide by a loved one. It could go off accidentally.

Is it worth the risk?

Someone pulls the trigger, a deliberate act.

its generally called an accident.

The child pulled the trigger and the responsible adult damn sure should be charged.

it takes a human interaction to pull the trigger.

but a firearm doesn't go off on it's own, someone had to pull the trigger.
Now maybe someone accidently pulls the trigger, but that's firearm safety negligence.

Last edited Sat Oct 10, 2015, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

No one is suggesting anyone must own a firearm, only that they have the right if they so choose.

Moreover, guns just don't just "go off accidentally." Someone needs to be handling them.

Sad part is it's not the guns in the other 40% either...



What kind of world is it we live in where we don't try and help our fellow man that's suffering. As you know my best friend killed himself about this time last year after living a tortured life due to drinking and a mental problem that caused him to withdraw from society slowly over several years. I talked to him often and had just texted him shortly before he moved on to the next world. My wife always told me I should go see him more often but I never did. RIP Mr. Doug, I love and miss you.

The OP is about suicides due to firearm availability. I am familiar with that type is suicide. I am also familiar with other kinds. My father drank himself to death.

Many times I offered to buy several of his guns but he wasn't that kind of guy.

None owned guns. 2 jumped, 2 OD'd, and one hung himself. Lack of a gun didn't stop them. Better mental health care might have.

would you like that would cut down on suicides?

Instead of defunding mental health care, I'd like to see us pour money into it. Let's provide a fraction of what we spend on "defense" taking care of people right here. Better prevention, much more early intervention, much better funded crisis care.

Let's focus on health and how to get there, rather than violence and revenge.

With that kind of funding, suicides of all types would dramatically drop.
I like your ideas, they're practical, sensible and achievable.

And most attempts with a firearm are a success. It's 60% of the deaths.

I think one improvement would be mandatory waiting periods for first time buyers.

Notably, comparable first world western countries with much fewer firearms, such as Canada, Australia and much of Europe, have comparable suicide rates as the USA, and gun control havens like Japan and South Korea have much higher suicide rates.

We have a general suicide problem that needs to be addressed with better mental healthcare, not a "gun suicide" problem, and there's no evidence that fewer guns in the USA, no less any gun control measures that have been proposed that could pass constitutional scrutiny, will change our suicide rates. The OP's article even basically concedes that the two cited studies about gun suicides were small, old, highly specific and of limited informational or predictive value in the discussion.

Talking point?

Long ago the act of suicide became acceptable to me as well as what methods could be used. The things I would never do have leaving a mess for someone else to clean up and activities that directly affect others, such as jumping into traffic or in front of a train, and indirectly such as having someone witness it. I do not own a firearm yet can legal purchase one at any time. There is not a single friend of mine who would not trust me with one, and at any given time I can have one within seconds or minutes. That being said, even though I no longer hunt, target shoot, or keep my skills sharp, if I decided to nothing would stop me.

Don't get me wrong, I do not have suicidal tendencies, but sometimes doing so is the best solution; case in point - at some very specific times during my military service I would kill myself before capture by an enemy. In those case death by shooting myself would have applied, those days are long gone. It would be less than honest not to recognize that there are events in the real lives of each of us where suicide is the least painful option for oneself and/or others. It is not strictly about guns anymore than it is strictly about mental health.

One was fueled by a long history of alcohol, the other by alcohol, marajuana, cocaine, and pills.

That much is clear.

People been killing themselves long before gun were even invented, guns just make it quicker, easier and messier, well not as messy as taking a swan dive off a very tall building but messier then taking a handful of pills or hanging oneself.

I am anti gun but using the suicide reason to ban guns is not a good idea.

Running ones car engine is a locked garage is still done today so we going to ban the sale of cars just because someone my kill themselves with it?