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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 04:43 PM Oct 2015

Paul Wellstone had the stones.



Paul Wellstone was the only senator who was up for re-election who voted no on the (Iraq War) resolution. The vote was on Oct. 11, 2002, less than a month before Election Day and Wellstone was locked in a tight race with Republican Norm Coleman, who strongly supported Bush and the war. It was Wellstone's last gutty liberal vote. The plane crash was precisely two weeks later.

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2013/03/minnesota-senators-no-votes-iraq-war-and-other-10th-anniversary-thoughts

43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Paul Wellstone had the stones. (Original Post) Octafish Oct 2015 OP
A terrible loss. madaboutharry Oct 2015 #1
''Who is this chicken shit?'' -- George H.W. Bush Octafish Oct 2015 #4
Ah, Wayne Madsen. The guy who believes Obama is secretly gay NuclearDem Oct 2015 #27
Where does it say any of that? Octafish Oct 2015 #29
You know damn well what that batshit bigot has written. NuclearDem Oct 2015 #34
I'll take Madsen and Democrats.com over you, any day. Octafish Oct 2015 #39
I'll bet Matthews was just about to have Wellstone on, too gratuitous Oct 2015 #2
Tweety is twisting in the wind these days. Octafish Oct 2015 #6
He had to go, the PTB did not like the fact he would not stay quiet. Rex Oct 2015 #3
Karl Rove considered Paul Wellstone the main enemy of the Bush White House. Octafish Oct 2015 #17
I Wish ruffburr Oct 2015 #5
Paul Wellstone might have been elected President, himself. Octafish Oct 2015 #30
I've probably repeated this story but it is worth telling again. hifiguy Oct 2015 #7
+1 ruffburr Oct 2015 #8
Yup. Yet *another* "coincidental" political death "coincidentally" benefiting *the same* villager Oct 2015 #10
Since 1963, every major political figure that was killed in the US hifiguy Oct 2015 #11
Goldfinger had that exactly right. Certain political actors have staged their own "raid on Ft. Knox" villager Oct 2015 #13
thats a long list restorefreedom Oct 2015 #15
+1 valerief Oct 2015 #26
According to the NTSB, his pilot had below average skills and stalled the plane due to pilot error hack89 Oct 2015 #24
The Co-Pilot turned in 20th hijacker Zacharias Moussaoui to FBI. Octafish Oct 2015 #31
The co-pilot was a flight instructor. hifiguy Oct 2015 #43
And then he died malaise Oct 2015 #9
DEMs hadn't been invited inside the emergency shelter on 9-11, either. Octafish Oct 2015 #19
They almost pulled off another coup malaise Oct 2015 #21
NTSB report here... SidDithers Oct 2015 #12
Throw some water on Poppy Bush. Octafish Oct 2015 #20
Small aircraft had a 100% safety record before Paul Wellstone rode in one. NuclearDem Oct 2015 #25
But octafish thinks Wayne Madsen is the guy with the answers... SidDithers Oct 2015 #28
You don't know one thing about what I think. Octafish Oct 2015 #33
SPECIAL REPORT - Obama and Emmanuel members of same gay bath house in Chicago NuclearDem Oct 2015 #35
So, how did you get that from anything I posted? Octafish Oct 2015 #36
You'll also notice the more right-leaning the poster, the higher the snark factor villager Oct 2015 #38
The specific craft Wellstone flew in (King Air) had an almost flawless safety record. nt mhatrw Oct 2015 #41
. Jesus Malverde Oct 2015 #37
The NTSB report explains nothing about the crash. mhatrw Oct 2015 #40
A great sarisataka Oct 2015 #14
A True Statesman libodem Oct 2015 #16
A strong, good man, gone too soon. Brickbat Oct 2015 #18
A DOMA voter. Bluenorthwest Oct 2015 #22
An honorable man that is missed. nt Mnemosyne Oct 2015 #23
I have my Wellstone for Pres 2000 bumper stickers... Paulie Oct 2015 #32
HUGE K&R CrawlingChaos Oct 2015 #42

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
4. ''Who is this chicken shit?'' -- George H.W. Bush
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 05:10 PM
Oct 2015
Bush 41's Opinion Of Paul Wellstone: A 'Chicken Shit'?

By Wayne Madsen

Before we all get sucked into George W. Bush's eulogies of the late Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone let us not forget what his father, Bush 41, called the Senator at a White House reception for newly-elected members of Congress in 1991.

Wellstone, who ran on a progressive platform, did not think Bush 41 cared one wit about education, health care, and workers' safety issues.

So when Wellstone met Bush in a typical White House pro forma reception line, he used the occasion to urge Bush on three different occasions to spend more time on issues like education and cautioning him against the Persian Gulf War. Of course, Bush was more concerned about fighting the war against Iraq (sound familiar?) and could care less about Wellstone's issues.

After Wellstone violated Bush 41's sanctimonious White House protocol, Bush was overheard saying, "Who is this chicken shit?"

CONTINUED...

http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=10236
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
27. Ah, Wayne Madsen. The guy who believes Obama is secretly gay
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 08:08 PM
Oct 2015

and that the Jews carried out 9/11, and currently own Hollywood, the media, both political parties, and the White House.

What the fuck is wrong with you, Octafish?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
29. Where does it say any of that?
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 09:08 PM
Oct 2015

The source is Democrats.com.

What the fuck is wrong with you is obvious.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
34. You know damn well what that batshit bigot has written.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 11:45 PM
Oct 2015

It's been pointed out to you over and over.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
39. I'll take Madsen and Democrats.com over you, any day.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:31 AM
Oct 2015

The reason: they actually side with Paul Wellstone and democracy over the Bush crime family.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
2. I'll bet Matthews was just about to have Wellstone on, too
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 04:57 PM
Oct 2015

I will bet a doughnut hole to a dollar that Sen. Wellstone was going to be Tweety's guest right after the election, so Tweety could find out all about a Democrat with stones, right?

Right?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
6. Tweety is twisting in the wind these days.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 05:16 PM
Oct 2015

He thought GE would be around to protect him for ever and ever. Now that the spaghetti's hitting the fan regarding Bush's lies for War Inc. -- no thanks to the Democratic leadership! -- Matthews will be lucky to find a concrete life vest.

Couldn't happen to a nicer fellah.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
3. He had to go, the PTB did not like the fact he would not stay quiet.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 04:59 PM
Oct 2015

Everyone else would play lap dog. Wellstone would not and wasn't having any of the BFEEs bullshit smoke and mirrors.

RIP sir.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
17. Karl Rove considered Paul Wellstone the main enemy of the Bush White House.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 06:54 PM
Oct 2015
The Nation wrote that a few months before that awful day:

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0510-04.htm

I remember on DU we noted how Wolf Blitzer zeroed in on weather, despite what his reporter on scene was saying. It sounded like Wolf wanted to make certain CNN was on the side of "accidents happen" from the first day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3931991



Octafish

(55,745 posts)
30. Paul Wellstone might have been elected President, himself.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 09:48 PM
Oct 2015

He showed leadership, not only regarding the war, but on what it means to be in politics:

"I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party."

The Progressive Professor said he was planning to run in 2004:

http://www.theprogressiveprofessor.com/?tag=paul-wellstone


 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
7. I've probably repeated this story but it is worth telling again.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 05:17 PM
Oct 2015

A former colleague and friend of mine became a private pilot in the early 2000s. A whip-smart woman who had gone to law school, had a growing practice but fell under the spell of flying.

The day Wellstone died she was flying Norm Coleman to the site of the debate that night. Both planes were in the air at the same time. She was within ten air miles of the Wellstone plane when it went down.

We talked at length about it later. She was very badly shaken. The weather, she said, was chilly, not close to freezing, however, overcast and drizzly but absolutely no threat to any aircraft or licensed pilot. A normal autumn day in Minnesota.

She said, and I quote as close to verbatim as I can recall, "there was no reason, none, for that plane to do down. One minute it was there, the next minute it was gone. It was like something just knocked it out of the sky." Her only other surmise was that the pilot deliberately crashed the plane, which she dismissed out of hand as absurd, but that was the only other explanation she could think of.

And this woman was neither especially political nor a "conspiracy theorist." Yet in her heart of hearts she did believe that something DID "just knock it out of the sky."

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
10. Yup. Yet *another* "coincidental" political death "coincidentally" benefiting *the same*
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 06:03 PM
Oct 2015

...political actors as all the other previous "coincidences" did.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
11. Since 1963, every major political figure that was killed in the US
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 06:16 PM
Oct 2015

Last edited Tue Oct 20, 2015, 06:54 PM - Edit history (1)

under, shall we say, unusual circumstances was of the left.

Medgar Evers
John Kennedy
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Malcolm X
Robert Kennedy
Paul Wellstone

"Mister Bond, once is an accident, twice is a coincidence. But three times is enemy action."

- Auric Goldfinger

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
13. Goldfinger had that exactly right. Certain political actors have staged their own "raid on Ft. Knox"
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 06:25 PM
Oct 2015

over the years, metaphorically (perhaps literally?) speaking...

And those deaths have helped pave the way.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
24. According to the NTSB, his pilot had below average skills and stalled the plane due to pilot error
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 07:47 PM
Oct 2015
During the later stages of the approach," the Board said, the flight crew "failed to monitor the airplane's airspeed and allowed it to decrease to a dangerously low level (as low as about 50 knots below the company's recommended approach speed) and to remain below the recommended approach speed for about 50 seconds." The airplane then entered a stall from which it did not recover.

The Board judged that while cloud cover might have prevented the flight crew from seeing the airport, icing did not affect the airplane's performance during the descent. Cockpit instrument readings on course alignment and airspeed should have prompted the flight crew to execute a go-around.

The Board did not find indications of any preexisting medical or other physical condition that might have adversely affected the crew's performance during the accident flight. Crew fatigue also does not appear to have been a factor in the accident. A review of flight crew records and interviews with co-workers, the Board said, indicated that both pilots had "previously demonstrated serious performance deficiencies consistent with below- average flight proficiency." There was no clear evidence as to which crewmember was the flying pilot at the time of the accident.


http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NTSB_Cites_Flight_Crew_Failures_in_Crash_of_Airplane_Carrying_Senator_Wellstone_7_Others.aspx

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
31. The Co-Pilot turned in 20th hijacker Zacharias Moussaoui to FBI.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 10:48 PM
Oct 2015

Michael Guess was a flight instructor. Reported it odd that Moussaoui was just interested in learning how to turn 747 toward a spot on the map, and not in taking off and landing.



Co-pilot played minor role in story of Moussaoui

Associated Press, 26 October 2002

MINNEAPOLIS - The co-pilot who died in the crash of Sen. Paul Wellstone's plane played a minor role in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged Sept. 11 conspirator who briefly attended an Eagan flight school.

Co-pilot Michael Guess had performed administrative work at the Pan Am International Flight Academy last year as he continued accumulating flying hours. There he met Moussaoui, the school's most infamous student.

Two former Pan Am program managers who tipped the FBI to Moussaoui's suspicious behavior at the school in August 2001 told the Star Tribune that Guess inadvertently gave Moussaoui unattended access to a computer program on flying a 747 jumbo jet.

One of the ex-managers said Guess placed a CD-ROM containing the 747 software at a work station in advance of one of Moussaoui's training sessions, before his flight instructor arrived. After Moussaoui was arrested and the FBI searched his belongings, they found the proprietary program copied on his laptop computer, the ex-manager said.

Guess was a victim of layoffs several weeks ago at the flight academy, where he had hoped to become a flight instructor.

At Executive Aviation in Eden Prairie, where Guess had been employed as a pilot since June 2001, a spokesman said colleagues remembered Guess telling them he had played a more significant role regarding the suspicions concerning Moussaoui.

Dave Mona, a spokesman for Executive Aviation, said Guess' colleagues had said that Guess had described himself as "at least a role player" in the detection of Moussaoui. Mona said Guess told his colleagues that "he and the receptionist . . . thought what (Moussaoui) was requesting was unusual" and raised the issue with others.

SOURCE: AP via http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/PWcopilot.html



Of course, the FBI defended Moussaoui's Fourth Amendment rights and refused to look into his laptop until Sept. 12, 2001. Guess died with Wellstone and the others. One of the other staffers at the flight school received a $5 million reward from the Department of Justice.

For those interested in the subject, and for new DUers and readers who may not remember Moussaoui's role:

Old News to you, hifiguy. To most people, unbelievable, but true: Know your BFEE: The Stench of Moussaoui Permeates the Octopus
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
43. The co-pilot was a flight instructor.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 03:31 PM
Oct 2015

To become a flight instructor you have to be a very competent and experienced pilot.

Had the pilot of PW's plane been that incompetent, the co-pilot would have immediately assumed command of the flight. Anyone with a flight instructor's skills and experience would have been able to anticipate and prevent any normal difficulty the plane might have met due to pilot error.

Which means that something very abnormal happened to that plane.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. DEMs hadn't been invited inside the emergency shelter on 9-11, either.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 07:00 PM
Oct 2015

Pukes don't care about people who care.



'Shadow Government' News To Congress

Dem Leaders Say They Weren’t Told; GOP Staffers Not Sure

White House Casts Light On 'Shadow'

WASHINGTON, March 5, 2002 (CBS)

Quote: “This is not the kind of thing you tell 10, 50 or 100 senators. If you do, you might as well tell the world." Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss.

(CBS) After lawmakers complained that they were kept in the dark, White House officials on Tuesday briefed top members of Congress about the "shadow government" that President Bush set up outside Washington as a safeguard against terrorism.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said two top Bush aides briefed Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., and Sen. Tom Daschle, D-S.D. on Tuesday, and House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., "had been previously informed."

But House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, D-Mo., was not part of Tuesday's session. His spokesman Erik Smith said Gephardt did not know about the meeting until it ended. He said he did not know why Gephardt was not invited.

"We're disappointed, we don't understand why they would choose not to invite Mr. Gephardt," Smith said.

Fleischer told reporters that Gephardt's absence was "a scheduling matter," but when pressed on whether Gephardt was invited, Fleischer replied, "I don't make all the invitations here at the White House.”

CONTINUED…

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-house-casts-light-on-shadow/



People are resources (things) to be used.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
20. Throw some water on Poppy Bush.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 07:09 PM
Oct 2015
Plausible Deniability and all that.

Poppy Bush warned FBI -- AFTER -- JFK assassinated.

In the hour of the death of President John F. Kennedy, Texas oilman George Herbert Walker Bush named a suspect to the FBI in a "confidential" phone call. He then added he was heading for Dallas. Skeptics need not take my word for it, that's what Poppy told the FBI:



Here's a transcript of the text:



TO: SAC, HOUSTON DATE: 11-22-63

FROM: SA GRAHAM W. KITCHEL

SUBJECT: UNKNOWN SUBJECT;
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN F. KENNEDY

At 1:45 p.m. Mr. GEORGE H. W. BUSH, President of the Zapata Off-Shore Drilling Company, Houston, Texas, residence 5525 Briar, Houston, telephonically furnished the following information to writer by long distance telephone call from Tyler, Texas.

BUSH stated that he wanted to be kept confidential but wanted to furnish hearsay that he recalled hearing in recent weeks, the day and source unknown. He stated that one JAMES PARROTT has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston.

BUSH stated that PARROTT is possibly a student at the University of Houston and is active in political matters in this area. He stated that he felt Mrs. FAWLEY, telephone number SU 2-5239, or ARLINE SMITH, telephone number JA 9-9194 of the Harris County Republican Party Headquarters would be able to furnish additional information regarding the identity of PARROTT.

BUSH stated that he was proceeding to Dallas, Texas, would remain in the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel and return to his residence on 11-23-63. His office telephone number is CA 2-0395.

# # #



Gee. Why was Poppy Bush in Dallas when JFK was assassinated?

Could it be, he was on official business? I suspect he was on Secret Government business. After all, his eldest son bragged during his Texas Air National Guard and Harvard grad school days that his daddy was CIA.

Here's an FBI document from the same week of the assassination in which FBI Director J Edgar Hoover briefed one "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." Some strange coincidence there, wot?



Here's a transcript of the above:



Date: November 29, 1963

To: Director
Bureau of Intelligence and Research
Department of State

From: John Edgar Hoover, Director

Subject: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
NOVEMBER 22, 1963

Our Miami, Florida, Office on November 23, 1963, advised that the Office of Coordinator of Cuban Affairs in Miami advised that the Department of State feels some misguided anti-Castro group might capitalize on the present situation and undertake an unauthorized raid against Cuba, believing that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy might herald a change in U. S. policy, which is not true.

Our sources and informants familiar with Cuban matters in the Miami area advise that the general feeling in the anti-Castro Cuban community is one of stunned disbelief and, even among those who did not entirely agree with the President's policy concerning Cuba, the feeling is that the President's death represents a great loss not only to the U. S. but to all of Latin America. These sources know of no plans for unauthorized action against Cuba.

An informant who has furnished reliable information in the past and who is close to a small pro-Castro group in Miami has advised that these individuals are afraid that the assassination of the President may result in strong repressive measures being taken against them and, although pro-Castro in their feelings, regret the assassination.

The substance of the foregoing information was orally furnished to Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency and Captain William Edwards of the Defense Intelligence Agency on November 23, 1963, by Mr. W. T. Forsyth of this Bureau.

# # #



I do remember that GHWB was head of the CIA when the Church and Pike committees were looking into the CIA assassination programs. He made things all friendly-like and turned what had been a serious hunt for truth under previous DCI Colby into another dog-and-pony show that was big on show and light on facts.

Regarding Dallas: Now I don't know if Poppy was a trigger man, was only there to watch what happened or what just happened to be there. I do know Poppy Bush has never explained these memos. He's never even admitted where he was the day JFK was killed.

Seeing how he would go on to become President, as would his dim son, I believe it's vitally important that we learn the Truth.

Why? The United States and the world haven't been the same since November 22, 1963. And not a single major player in the nation's mass media have stepped up and demanded a real investigation. So, it's up to us, We the People.

What's more, Poppy Bush sheltered mass-murdering jet-bombing terrorists like Luis Posada Carriles. You know, Pinochet's friend.

Thanks for reminding me.
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
25. Small aircraft had a 100% safety record before Paul Wellstone rode in one.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 07:47 PM
Oct 2015

Never since the dawn of aviation have aircraft crashed.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
28. But octafish thinks Wayne Madsen is the guy with the answers...
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 08:47 PM
Oct 2015

Wayne fucking Maden.

Promoting and legitimizing an homophobic piece of filth like Madsen at DU should get you banned.

Can you believe that? Using Wayne Madsen to defend Paul Wellstone is fucking atrocious.



Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
33. You don't know one thing about what I think.
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 10:57 PM
Oct 2015

I will tell you: Your sappy phrase, "fucking atrocious," reminds me that for years you have rushed to defend the Bush crime family when I post about them on DU.

"Atrocious."

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
35. SPECIAL REPORT - Obama and Emmanuel members of same gay bath house in Chicago
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 11:54 PM
Oct 2015
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/articles/20100522

"The Israeli Lobby controls the Congress, media, Hollywood, Wall Street, both political parties, and the White House."

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/06/wayne-madsen-the-israeli-lobby-owns-the-congress-hollywood-and-the-whitehouse/


This is the kind of person you find acceptable to post here.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
36. So, how did you get that from anything I posted?
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 12:04 AM
Oct 2015

Which is strange, considering how Paul Wellstone was Jewish and from what I posted, Wayne Madsen was supporting his liberal, progressive and democratic perspectives.

If you and SidDithers of DU want anti-Semitic perspective, it would explain your defense of George HW Bush, a lifelong friend and longtime business and government associate of Allen Dulles. That guy was so corrupt, he failed to forward to FDR the reports smuggled out at great cost from NAZI Germany of The Holocaust.

http://www.salon.com/2015/10/15/every_president_has_been_manipulated_national_security_officials_david_talbot_investigates_americas_deep_state/

So, why you dump on me for pointing that out, nuclear dem?

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
38. You'll also notice the more right-leaning the poster, the higher the snark factor
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:18 AM
Oct 2015

Actual conversation seems to be "off the table" from their perspective.

But I wonder what the constantly recurring correlation between conservatism and snark tells us?

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
40. The NTSB report explains nothing about the crash.
Wed Oct 21, 2015, 02:48 AM
Oct 2015

What happened to the pilots that they veered off course for more than a mile on the approach then dangerously lowered their airspeed more than 50 mph below the recommended landing speed then ignored their stall horn warning plummeting to the ground at a 30 degree angle instead of a 3 degree angle without either one ever picking up the radio to communicate any problem?

I've never quite figured that one out. It's like both pilots fell asleep on approach. At least that is what the NTSB report you linked describes.

Paulie

(8,462 posts)
32. I have my Wellstone for Pres 2000 bumper stickers...
Tue Oct 20, 2015, 10:50 PM
Oct 2015

Got to meet him (and Jim Hightower) at a conference in Chicago back in like 1999.

Ha, found the article on it: http://chicagodsa.org/ngarchive/ng61.html#anchor1166103

Guests, speakers and panelists included a wide variety of stellar figures of the Left. Syndicated talk show host, Jim Hightower, was emcee for the Friday evening (Oct. 9) plenary session, and typified the tone of the conference. Sandwiched in among his hilarious down-home Texas jokes were serious calls to fight predatory corporations and embrace Joe six-pack.

Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone, the Left's primary preference for president in the 2000 election, key-noted the conference with an emphasis on the Left's need to join the middle and lower economic segments of society in a common effort for reform if needed changes are to be made in the electoral process. As opposed to the Republican's equating of morality with sex, he defined morality in terms of a living wage, affordable health care, quality education, adequate nutrition for all children and curbing domestic violence, all of which are true family values. Republicans cloak greed and selfishness behind the mantle of "individual opportunity". Wellstone wants us to campaign for education, health care and jobs, saying, "We all do better when we all do better".


Same needs, 16 years later...
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Paul Wellstone had the st...