And possibly colored by your own personal experience.

But I'll wait on some other answers and then expand on that.

...although as I have chronicled elsewhere here on DU some time ago, it did happen to my neighbor who was absolutely devastated by the betrayal.

Whoopi Goldberg has recently published a book called "Run!" that exposes deceitful behavior of men toward women. I am more particularly interested in the phenomenon as it occurs in liberal/progressive enlightened/evolved men.

Please proceed.

I'm 71 years old, female.

The lies go both ways - probably pretty evenly if you ask me

Men lie to get sex. Do women?

at that time.

Perhaps I was responding more to your question about lying about sex....

Casual sex back in the 60s, 70s, 80s wasn't very well thought out or "deep" in my experience. It was mostly fun. If I thought a guy was cute and I wanted sex, I'd flirt and probably skirt the truth about how I really felt about them in order to get the result I wanted. Chances are they were lying to me too.

I stayed in Australia with a guy far longer than I probably should have because I wanted to stay in Australia. It was so much less about him than my desire to stay there at the end. So much of that sex at the end was a lie.

One thing is true for me, once I fell in love, it became impossible to lie about sex anymore - can't lie about it, can't lie to get it.

So perhaps the bottom line is that the emotional connection is the key about whether sex involves lying. That's about right for me.

If they do, I think it more a relationship thing and not a sex thing.

to keep a marriage going, "for the sake of the children," or all the many many reasons why women lie to men about sex?

It may well be that lying "to get sex" is something men do more than women, but I don't see any reason why that is more immoral than lying about sex in general for other reasons. There's something about this premise that sets up the idea that women are programmed to be emotional victims where sex is concerned. I'd rather believe that women are as capable of taking care of themselves emotionally as men.

my central question is: how does an allegedly liberal/progressive/enlightened man lie to a woman for sex or about love.

And it could also be: how does an allegedly liberal/progressive/enlightened woman lie about love to keep a marriage.

I've been with a good number of married women (I'm male). They didn't lie about being married. In fact they were quite open about it. I just had to arrange things so that their husbands didn't find out.

I, personally, have never lied in order to get sex. if it was to be a one night stand or friends with benefits, both parties were aware of the situation.

People lie when the reality of a situation isn't going to give them what they want. Lying for sex falls into this pattern.

than women in dating situations?

Also what exactly do you categorize as lying?

No.

Assumption?

Yes.

Premise: even progressive, enlightened/evolved men CAN/MAY lie to women with impunity when it comes to sex and love.

What is a lie? I'm hoping that people who feel lied to in this situation will tell me what they think.

What do YOU think would qualify as a lie for sex?

my guess would be that almost everyone "embellishes their resume".

As to your first point, the op assumes that conclusion and provides no basis for that assumption. There is no indication that the op is out to prove *that* hypothesis, but instead wants to understand more about why this alleged fact is true.

Blame it on desperation or depression or general loneliness or a lack of a moral compass. I did not say it was a good reason, but you answered your own question.

.....then how is it that they think it's acceptable to lie in this particular scenario? How is it rationalized, when the man otherwise would think lying wrong?

decency imo. I've seen it first hand with male friends, that would normally be Mr. Nice. However if they think they are going to 'get' sex...they turn into another person. I think part of it is some men 'get' sex and some like to 'have' sex. I think one is a drive while the other is for pleasure with another person.

At one time, I thought when someone asked me for advice it was because they would listen. I have learned from the error of my ways. And they do it again and again.

I have no idea why. I am not like that so it seems alien to behave that way.

we're animals and while some persons control their instincts better than others, some of us will do anything for sex including lie. One of my platonic male friends told me back in the 70s that he would do and say anything if at the end of the day/night he was going to achieve that thrill of 'conquest'. Said he would cry, lie, do anything she demanded because there was nothing like that thrill and it was very possible that he wouldn't be seeing her again. Yes he was married.

On the other hand I actually know more than two women who have absolutely no interest in sex and haven't had it since their last child - well their husbands have needs and don't want to hurt their feelings so they lie.

women would hope that men would value them enough to not lie.

Yes?

No?

Your original op makes little sense to me.

Now this?
Let me counter: men would hope that they value themselves enough not to lie to a woman.

excellent observation.

And

Does the atitude have anything to do with mom?

Does it have anything to do with being prematurely sexualized as a child? (As in a girl who has been molested as a child and is sexually dysfunctional as an adult)?

I am seeking any kind of thought or theory.

The media keep churning out romcoms where the handsome, rich dude inexplicably picks the plucky 30 or 40 something Bridget Jones type. Or those romance novels.

Men are misrepresented in the media to sell a myth. Men want sex, often only sex. And many men don't particularly care how they get it.

I'm a 63 year old man and I can tell you that I'm not "..most of the time only interested in sex."
There's a whole world of stuff out there to be interested in.

Nearly every sitcom since "Friends" has hammered that home. Think the Barney Stimson character -- there's one of those in every series.

I cannot imagine feeling that entitled. But we are only women I suppose. B

"It's not you, it's me".



I'm not saying I agree with your supposition; men are usually the hunters and it may just be a characteristic of that aspect of behavior.

I think most of us have been in a situation where moving forwards according to what one person thinks is going to happen is intolerable, but moving in a different direction or moving in separate directions will bring significant and sustained emotional pain to the other person. Trying to minimize that pain can easily be a motivation to lie, conceal truth, or be incompletely truthful.





Personal experience.

....it often happens that the actor in your scenario has not been truthful from the beginning, and either was lying from the beginning, or began to lie part-way through -- not just as an exit strategy.

Thank you for your thoughtful personal experience. I know of men who have said they "don't want to lose this strong connection" as a way of minimizing the deleterious affect on the woman. And women view that as booty insurance.

But everyone lies.

Somehow the Internets transforms us all into the perfect being. Somehow.

I learned in Delta Force never to lie.

We paraglided off the roof of the world on huge bulls made out of diamonds and laser beams. Sometimes we would hit the ground and keep on going until we speared a demon and then out the other side of the planet.

It got boring after some time, I could not get promoted any more they ran out of ranks. I retired as Master of The Universe second class.

Sex particularly for many young women is a big deal. Most don't want to be a mere conquest. So, to lie to break down a woman into having sex is heinous. Younger women tend to get attached very easily so really this is emotional abuse. If the man is moral he won't lie. That is the bottom line.

older women are particularly vulnerable as well.

Emotional abuse; interesting thought.

What you have said is in line with what many women here on DU said when I told them the story of my neighbor who was dumped by text by a very good (otherwise) man; a progressive enlightened and evolved man. He simply dumped her after months of a sweet and hot wonderful relationship, and she found he had been lying to her and to another woman as well. Many posters agreed with what you say; if he's moral he won't lie period. I know the man, and know his character. It's hard to reconcile the good and the bad.

But, lying implies it might be a BFD to one person and not the other. So, there is no way that is moral at all. It seems you may not know him as well as you think.

and if he knew it was a BFD to her and kept lying, then he is either a predator or a hypocrite.

Here's a quirk, though. If she admits that he is not moral, then she has to face the fact that she was totally bamboozled. And that hurts, too.

....one week he was extremely involved and having sex with her and texting all sorts of sweet things; five days later he dumped her by text telling her had met someone else a year ago and was going to pursue that relationship.

I personally think he became extremely afraid, and kind of lost his mind.

It doesn't end there. In subsequent weeks, he met her again several times, kissed her seriously again.

And then there's the herpes.

So...LOL...I guess you are right.

People generally suck and will lie whenever they think they can get away with it.

Men in general think they are entitled to sex while women do not. Women are generally slut-shamed if they dare do the kinds of things men do with regard to sex.

The slut shaming.

I actually lied more to avoid sex than to get it. I was pretty shallow when I was younger, and if I managed to get someone to strip down, then realized I didn't find them as physically attractive as I did mentally or that I had assumed greater aesthetics than was revealed, I tended to find ways to get out of taking things further. And yeah, that included lying. I didn't want them sexually, but I also didn't want to hurt their feelings more than I already probably was. I also was terrified of getting into a real relationship when I still didn't even know who I was going to be myself, if that makes any sense. So if it felt like things were getting more serious than casual sex, I'd even lie to myself and come up with ways to sabotage the relationship. It took me a lot longer to simply wake up and be living consciously, not just drifting through life the way I thought I was 'supposed to' according to popular culture than it should have. I had to learn to relate to my 'self' before I could relate to others, and realize that virtually everything I was 'learning' about relationships and sex from movies and books was utter bilge.

Yup. For sex, and also, surprisingly, companionship. They're terrified to be alone.

I think most men are so insecure that they believe no one would actually want/tolerate them. So they think the only way to get it is to lie and pretend to be something that they're not.

The older they get, the better they are at saying exactly what we want to hear...And they know that eventually their words won't match their deeds, and we'll dump them. They're counting on that, too.

You can say I'm a pessimist, but, them's the truth. Lots of personal experience to back it up. And no, I don't lie. Ever. I'm an open book.

It does seem to be a game for many men.

And yet it's really complicated, I am beginning to understand.

The problem with being an open book (and I really value that decision) is that it doesn't seem to stop a man from lying to a woman -- it doesn't seem possible to induce him or convince to be as transparent as you are. So he will still lie (if he is so inclined) and you will be open and transparent and nothing will be different because you don't lie.

Does that make any sense?

if they'll lie to me.

And I live honestly because life is too short. I can't be bothered with lying. Too much work.

Reject me for who I really am. I'll survive.

Basically, men have 2 heads, and only one can think at a time. Also, when one is making the decisions, the other one seems to fall right off, and not even notice that someone else is making his decisions. They're a pathetic lot, but I like male pheromones....

In fact, throughout nature, males are always beating each other up to win female sex partners. That urge for sex and to (temporarily) own the sexual object likely isn't exempt from our species. That drive (sex/winning) may well be hormonal (and cultural in our case) and strong enough to lie for.

I think anybody here knows that I am not shy talking about the topic of my sex-life or gender at this point. I'm about as out as I can be about these things. I've been told that I am insightful and give good word. I'll start with what you asked here.

Why would a liberal/progressive, enlightened, evolved man lie to a woman to get sex, or lie to a woman to make her think he loves her (to get sex), or lie to a woman in order to move on to another woman (to get new sex), when he would be opposed to lying generally and think himself a bit of a feminist?

Because they can get away with it. Because they think they have to.

I've not lied about this in years. I've been openly poly-oriented since college having both monogamous and non-monogamous relationships in that time; it's been my experience in that time that being open and forthright about my wants and expectations has a better success rate than lying ever did. I'm not the only one that enjoys casual sexual relationships. Women like having orgasms too and sometimes you don't want to be burdened with the bullshit to find a regular outlet for enjoyable sex. If more people were open and honest, this would be recognized for the foolishness that it is...it does have a corollary though in women: they don't lie to obtain sex, they do tend to lie about wanting to have more sex or sex with more people or desiring sex even from their partner for fear of being thought easy or slutty. Again, honesty. If everybody was more honest, a lot more people would be having a lot more and a lot better sex.

Why does his moral code break down when it comes to this one situation? Is it that even moral, enlightened men excuse themselves somehow from clarity and transparency in this one area? Is it that sense of male entitlement? Are they able to deny the consequences for the woman of their lies? What?

I'm not sure that there is a moral code breakdown...they know they're doing wrong. They just think they need to be dishonest in order to have their needs fulfilled. Is that male entitlement? I think it's more selfishness...or as I prefer to think of it: self-entitlement. It has nothing to do with being male. I think everybody has lied at some time to get what they want or need, or to game an outcome that is better for them with the consequences falling mostly on others. This is just something men lie about. Women lie about other things. For that matter, women can and do lie about this too and men also lie about other things. 4-second takeaway? Gregory House had it right: everybody lies.

Edit: on reflection, I realized I have actually lied to a woman in order to move on, but it wasn't to get new sex...we were open and I could have new sex any time I wanted. I actually lied to move on because she was committed to making it as difficult as possible for me to break it off...to the point of being emotionally and mentally abusive and manipulative.

much appreciated

Some are just total jerks and they just are after sex or conquests. They just lie all the time. Lotharios. And they don't change even after they get married and have kids. Too much testosterone? Or maybe it's just fun for them. Something exciting to do.

But not all men are like that. Thank god.




,

Like evolution has a direction? Like we're going somewhere? It goes in that upwards diagonal line from left to right on the graph? Life just adapts to its given situation, moment by moment.

Morality is subjective, dependent on the context in which someone finds themselves in. As is language. Like time, we created the words and definitions out of the thin air of our human imagination. People can justify and rationalize anything, as long as they agree with it. If they disagree with it, they can find ways to not justify or rationalize anything too. It all depends on your particular perspective.

If men lie to get/have sex, it's because that's an adaptation to the complex web of language. In the same way that the answer to the everyday question of "How are you doing?", is "ok", instead of going into the whole diatribe that most if not all people could do. Everyone has things to do though, and nobody really cares about your problems anyway. If you have something someone else wants though, then they're more willing to listen to what you have to say. That's not just with sex though, that's anything in life. Then things can go back to the agreeing/disagreeing thing, where if you share a problem that someone else has, you're more willing to listen to that person too. Why? Misery loves company is a saying for a reason.

So life is subjective, we're not going anywhere, and there's no rule book to tell people what to do as we stare into the dark abyss of oblivion.

It wouldn't be believed. It wouldn't be appreciated. It wouldn't be accepted.

I lived with three men and learned from them their views on women, love, and sex. They seem to have preconceptions that can't be challenged, though I tried.

From a Freudian standpoint, these kind of men are afraid of rejection and will say anything to avoid it.

...and then the question becomes: what does lying to women for/about sex have to do with mama? Anything?

Babies.

Sad but true, we're all humans first

I'm not sure of it's so much a feminist thing, as it is a human relationships kind of thing, because I've seen much of that behavior in same-sex couples as well.

But from the framing of your question, you aren't actually looking to find evidence one way or another. Your framing is that of an accusation.

Some studies have shown that women lie ( even about sex) as often as men do.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/29/science/la-sci-sn-who-lies-about-sex-more-men-or-women-20130528

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3110136/Women-tell-fibs-men-honestly-Four-five-say-tell-lie-daily-basis.html

Granted those aren't specifically on point about lying to get sex, but it suggests that your premise might just be your own bias.

Two separate things IMO.

Humans are coded to replicate themselves.

For men, it means -sorry if the image is crude- to have sex with as many partners as possible:
again, sorry about the image, spreading their chromosomes.

For women, increasing the probability of children reaching adulthood means having a partner who can help provide means and security. That might evolve, but genetic coding is strong.

The end result is that men have more incentive to lie to get sex.