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dickthegrouch

(3,174 posts)
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:12 PM Dec 2015

Can we make it more expensive to support the NRA?

In my mind any State or National elected representative who has voted against gun restrictions or in favor of relaxing current restrictions further is, in part, culpable for all new injuries that occur.

What is to stop the attorneys seeking redress for wrongful death or injury caused by a gun from adding those elected representatives as co-respondents in their damages suits?

Every wrongful death or injury caused by a gun would cause hundreds of lawmakers to have to respond to the suit.

I read somewhere that there have been 352 mass shootings this year, but, as usual there are about 100,000 injuries and deaths every year. The sheer cost of having their attorneys respond, and even better, of them having to appear in court to defend themselves, should get them right out of the legislative business (where they are achieving nothing of note in any case).

Is there a quorum if all Repubs and other traitors supporting the NRA cause are all in court????



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dickthegrouch

(3,174 posts)
3. Speech or Debate is not a Vote.
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:29 PM
Dec 2015

I see nothing protecting senators from the consequences of their votes.

dickthegrouch

(3,174 posts)
5. Why not try it until we get shut down?
Fri Dec 4, 2015, 11:53 PM
Dec 2015

From http://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/separation-of-powers-legislative-immunity.aspx

Court decisions interpreting the extent of protection afforded by legislative immunity vary. The interpretations have centered on a definition of “legitimate legislative activity.” Such activities extend beyond floor debate and include the act of voting and views expressed in committee deliberations.

Questions remain, however. While legislators are protected from liability, are they also protected from having to testify about their legislative actions? Are legislative documents protected from judicial inquiry? These are just some of the questions that may not be fully resolved as states struggle to balance unencumbered legislative deliberations with more open government under "sunshine" laws and Freedom of Information Acts and new social networking capabilities.

Immunity from Arrest

The framers of the U.S. Constitution recognized the fundamental necessity of protecting members of Congress from arbitrary arrest. While U.S. Constitution Article I, section 6 placed some restrictions on the police or justice to arrest or detain legislators during a legislative session, its protections did not apply to situations involving "treason, felony or breach of the peace." Most state constitutions contain similar provisions.
Questions about arrest immunity often arise. For example, when--and in what situations--does the provision apply? Is protection from arrest removed only for "treason, felony or breach of the peace," or is a broader interpretation of the offenses applied?


I'm not suggesting they be arrested, I'm not suggesting they don't have free will to vote, I am suggesting we make damned inconvenient and expensive to be part of the problem when failing to protect uninvolved persons lives.

The Constitution could not exist without the Declaration of Independence. In that document there are inalienable rights to Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I'll be the ordering of those rights was debated more than the NRA has allowed on amending or appropriately limiting interpretation of the second amendment. If we can establish that there is a legally recognizable hierarchy to those rights, Life is the first and should trump gun owners' right to happiness with their toys.

All I want is an end to random deaths at the hands of unrelated people.

I am suggesting ways to think out of the box and possibly get some movement. All I can hope to do is sow a spark in some eager attorney to achieve something different.

Not many people are doing that as far as I can see.

hardluck

(639 posts)
9. I appreciate your zealousness
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:04 AM
Dec 2015

Yet as your quote states "legislators are protected from liability." They are immune from civil and (almost all) criminal liability for their legislative actions. It is the legislative immunity that flows from the Speech or Debate Clause. "It is the purpose and office of the doctrine of legislative immunity, having its roots as it does in the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution, Kilbourn v. Thompson, 103 U.S. 168, 204 (1881), that legislators engaged "in the sphere of legitimate legislative activity," Tenney v. Brandhove, supra, 341 U.S., at 376 , should be protected not only from the consequences of litigation's results but also from the burden of defending themselves." Dombrowski v. Eastland, 387 U.S. 82 (1967).


As to the Declaration, it is not legal authority.

No attorney is going to sue legislators based on their votes while a legislator because we don't like being sanctioned and reported to the state bar.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
12. Their is consequences for their votes
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:16 AM
Dec 2015

it's called elections where the voters get to either vote them in or vote them out.

Jarqui

(10,126 posts)
6. Maybe a bullet tax
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:07 AM
Dec 2015

would also have to apply to chemicals, lead, shell casings - maybe even gun purchases

The tax goes to a fund to compensate victims of firearms murders and the governments for the police/EMS and hospitals, etc.

I don't care if it's $100 per bullet. Republicans generally don't seem to give a crap about other people - particularly poor or non-white or non-Christian. But they tend to understand some money arguments when it comes to costing the government.

Now money arguments were the last thing on my mind as this horror unfolded in Califonia (or Sandy Hook or Colorado Planned Parenthood, etc) But think of how much money that mess cost San Bernardino yesterday. Police/EMS/hospital OT. And the state and federal governments. And the victims - funerals, lost income, etc.

If the Republicans are so insistent that these deadly toys be permitted to do damage, then the folks selling these damaging devices should pick up the tab on what they're costing the country.

i'd much rather strict gun control laws but in lieu of that, something like the above might be a bit of a deterrent. It would hurt gun sales so badly, the gun manufacturers might relent to allow gun control lows to lose this tax.

Just a thought - haven't really worked it through and it wouldn't be easy to pass ...

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
8. Not even close to constitutional
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:39 AM
Dec 2015

Look up Minneapolis Star Tribune vs. County Assessor - SCOTUS.

The materials required to exercise a constitutional right is covered by the same protection as the right itself.

They tried to severely tax printers ink to punish the newspaper for it's editorial policy. Thereby infringing on the 1st amendment.

Same as trying to infringe the 2nd amendment by playing cute with a cartridge tax.

It cost Chicago about $3.2 million in legal fees to the NRA when they tried to play fast and loose with banning ammunition and shooting ranges.

But give it a try, as long as you're picking up the tab for the legal fees.

Jarqui

(10,126 posts)
15. Cook County did it in 2012 for firearms
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:58 PM
Dec 2015
http://www.cookcountyil.gov/department-of-revenue/firearm-tax/

Now they're going after the ammunition
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/11/10/preckwinkle-expects-approval-of-new-ammunition-tax/

Seattle modeled their law after Cook County

The NRA is suing
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-24/nra-sues-seattle-over-tax-on-sales-of-guns-ammunition

and it's not costing Seatle who have free legal help
http://www.examiner.com/article/seattle-confirms-free-legal-help-fight-against-preemption

there's this back and forth thing in PA - they've won some and lost some
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2015/01/14/nra-filing-lawsuit-against-pittsburgh-2-other-pa-cities-over-gun-laws/

Right now, the NRA is legally being outspent 10 to 1 in lawsuits. I say bury them - keep piling up court cases and sucking legal money out of them.

They do not always win:

Failed NRA Case
http://newsblaze.com/story/20150902060737zzzz.nb/topstory.html

Bad News For The NRA: A Gun Store Just Lost A Lawsuit For Selling A Gun
http://www.alan.com/2015/10/14/bad-news-for-the-nra-a-gun-store-just-lost-a-lawsuit-for-selling-a-gun/#

Judge tosses out NRA’s ordinance suit
http://www.phillytrib.com/news/judge-tosses-out-nra-s-ordinance-suit/article_bd3b538e-7c29-57ca-a38f-94bdcc09a2ff.html

Pa. court restores Harrisburg’s gun laws
http://abc27.com/2015/10/30/city-gun-ordinances-restored-in-harrisburg/

NRA Smacked Down In Handgun Sales Lawsuit
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-04-30/handgun-sales-age-requirement-upheld-by-appeals-court

Judge Dismisses NRA, Upholds Sunnyvale Gun Control ...
http://www.sanjoseinside.com/2014/03/06/judge-dismisses-nra-upholds-sunnyvale-gun-control-measure/

The NRA said one of the reasons they wanted legislation to protect gun manufacturers is that they could not afford all the lawsuits. I say ok, sue the crap out of them - bury them in court and hurt their financial resources with legal fees. I think they spent $30 million buying congress last year. With 3400 counties in the US if the Democratic half sue, it won't be so easy for them to keep buying politicians - lawsuits are expensive. 1700 counties against 1 NRA ... could take some real steam out of them.
 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
16. Toni Preckwinkle's $25 "surcharge" is in the court system now
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:13 PM
Dec 2015

It's working its way to the Appellate court where Chicago/Cook County have an 0 and 4 record so far.

As soon as the first "ammo tax" is levied in the real world, a suit will be filed against that too. Probably by the SAF and ISRA.

Chicago and Cook County don't have a good track record for winning these suits.

The Ezell case has already cost them over $2 million for SAF and ISRA legal fees, on top of the $3.2 million for the McDonald case they lost. The legal fees of the winner are paid by the loser of the case. Normal for Civil Rights related cases.

The NRA ILA spent $28 million last year. Bloomberg spent over $50 million, and still lost in Virginia, but I guess it's OK to take money from a racist PoS as long as it's against GUNZ! Roght?

Jarqui

(10,126 posts)
21. Not so sure about the 0-4 record. NRA lost this one
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 04:25 PM
Dec 2015
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150501/gun-ban-upheld-federal-appellate-court-uses-feelings-to-justify-it
The U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals issued a decision on Monday allowing a Chicago-area gun and magazine ban to stand. Such bans are justifiable, according to the court, merely on the basis that they "may increase the public's sense of safety."


Chicago has collected seven figures since 2013 and seems to still be collecting the firearm tax.
http://www.vocativ.com/news/220658/seattle-gun-tax/

Paladin

(28,262 posts)
17. Yeah, like a progressivism scolding from somebody with 38% of his posts in Gun Control/RKBA.(nt)
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:21 PM
Dec 2015
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
18. The host of the anti-gun forum has an even higher percent in Gun Control/RKBA
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 04:02 PM
Dec 2015

I guess hes off the scolding list too huh?

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