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Photographer

(1,142 posts)
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:01 AM Dec 2015

The Second Amendment must go: We ban lawn darts. It’s time to ban guns

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/the_second_amendment_must_go_we_ban_lawn_darts_its_time_to_ban_guns/

We are one nation, forever fucked by the NRA and an outdated and dangerous read of the Constitution. Let's fix it



Our youngest son just transitioned from crib to bed. Since we don’t plan to have any more children, we decided to sell the crib, a hand-me-down from his older brother. It’s a nice, well-made crib, made from real wood and bought from a reliable company. We could easily resell it for a handsome price, but we found out a few weeks ago that we can’t. It’s a drop side crib, and unbeknownst to us the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) banned the manufacture, sale, and resale of drop-sides in 2010, even though individuals can unadvisedly still use them. Drop-sides were responsible for more than 30 infant and toddler deaths in the decade prior to their ban, along with thousands of injuries. We hadn’t realized that our kid had been sleeping and playing in a death trap.

A few accidental deaths are often enough to ban certain items, or at the very least recall them, and often without much fanfare. It’s strange that we don’t have the same reaction to guns. Guns have killed many more infants and toddlers than drop-side cribs, not to mention older children, adolescents, and adults. Guns have killed many more than a host of other objects not originally designed to kill. Remember lawn darts? The CPSC banned the sale of the metal-tipped ones after three deaths and numerous serious injuries.

Yet when it comes to guns, we collectively do nothing, except spout off some strained political rhetoric every now and then, that is, after the most recent mass shooting. [Add in prayer here.] Or we dig in and cite our constitutional right to bear arms, which apparently trumps death, even the death of children. There’s a lot of room for debate regarding the meaning of the second amendment. I doubt very much that our “founding fathers” envisioned that right in its current form, but even if they did, it really shouldn’t matter. The framers of the constitution weren’t gods, meaning that their words aren’t—and shouldn’t be—sacrosanct.

We know this intuitively, since we’ve had to add numerous amendments to make up for their failures, lack, or just plain ignorance. But if we can add, we can also take away, by interpreting the Second Amendment differently or passing a new amendment that would effectively repeal it. We should never do so lightly, of course—taking away rights can be, and often is, a risky enterprise. But the purpose of a right should be individual and collective flourishing. A right, in other words, has as its goal the individual and common good, even if we don’t like to use such weighty moral terminology nowadays.

It’s not clear to me that gun ownership accomplishes that purpose. It seems more the case that it works against the good of all, in the havoc and murder it wreaks but also in the fear that in promotes. At the very least, we should have a discussion about the relationship of guns to the common good, instead of appealing like a fundamentalist to “rights” every time something happens that questions their value.

Guns don’t kill people, people do, someone will say. But people use guns to kill people, and it makes it much easier to do so, including on a mass scale. The idea that guns aren’t to blame but the actions of people is misguided and unthinking, to say the least. Specifically, it ignores what guns are for. A crib or, perhaps, a car, may kill under certain circumstances, but that’s not what a crib or a car is for. When death does result from their use, we assume that they have, in some way, been misused. At the very least, they have failed to fulfill their intended purpose, intentionally or not. Not so with a gun. The whole point of a gun is to injure or kill. Guns can certainly be used in other ways and for other reasons, such as sport, but these are secondary to its primary function. When a gun is used to injure or kill, it’s being used as intended. It’s the gun that’s at issue, because of the type of object that it is.

But the problem is irresponsible gun owners or criminals, not the overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens who choose to own and use guns responsibly, people say. A fair point at one level, but most everyone’s responsible and law-abiding until they’re not. People in committed relationships usually go into them with fidelity in mind, yet infidelity is common and, often, unexpected. It’s similar with guns and gun owners. No “responsible” gun owner ever thinks he’ll ever misuse his gun—until he does something stupid, gets angry in the wrong place at the wrong time, leaves it unattended with children around, or simply snaps. Perhaps that doesn’t happen most of the time, but it happens frequently enough to raise questions, even though we usually don’t.

<snip>

Much more and worth the read at above link.
74 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Second Amendment must go: We ban lawn darts. It’s time to ban guns (Original Post) Photographer Dec 2015 OP
and... Photographer Dec 2015 #1
Not naive at all... tecelote Dec 2015 #61
Come to think of it forsaken mortal Dec 2015 #2
Unless you've been living in a cave for the past 30 years, you can't buy them anymore. Photographer Dec 2015 #6
That's nice hack89 Dec 2015 #3
Sure. Can I suggest Somalia. They are very pro gun there. Photographer Dec 2015 #9
Rhode Island is pro-gun enough for me, thank you very much. Nt hack89 Dec 2015 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author Maynar Dec 2015 #59
Yay Cholera! Maynar Dec 2015 #60
Somalia has stricter gun laws than most US states. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #68
Better Than Somalia: How to Feel Good About Gun Violence Photographer Dec 2015 #71
Gunpolicy.org Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #73
Neat site. Photographer Dec 2015 #74
Gunners will be here to tell us it can't happen, their sick fondness for lethal weapons Hoyt Dec 2015 #4
No, all you have to do is create a plurality of the electorate who wish to jonno99 Dec 2015 #8
^ Spoken like someone who values guns more than the lives of their fellow Americans LonePirate Dec 2015 #14
Everything they said was true, whether you like it or not friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #17
Are you suggesting then that you're hoping for some dictatorial edict that will make right jonno99 Dec 2015 #34
There is no sufficient alternative to repealing the 2A, banning and confiscating all guns. LonePirate Dec 2015 #37
Well, see there I believe you are wrong. According to Bernie even, the vast majority of gun owners jonno99 Dec 2015 #42
You would also have to repeal... meaculpa2011 Dec 2015 #62
Is ryan_cats Dec 2015 #40
What's the matter? GGJohn Dec 2015 #67
Its cant happen Travis_0004 Dec 2015 #46
Sounds like a plea. Hoyt Dec 2015 #65
I'll keep my rights, thanks anyway. ileus Dec 2015 #5
Will you be taking my cutlery as well? B2G Dec 2015 #7
Well, they are working on that in the UK (as you probably know)...nt jonno99 Dec 2015 #10
Not really, but do need a different interpretation, elleng Dec 2015 #11
Exactly. We just need to change ONE nutter Justice for a progressive one. SunSeeker Dec 2015 #57
If only! elleng Dec 2015 #58
I'll make you a deal B2G Dec 2015 #13
Why is your addiction to guns more important than thousands of lost lives every year? LonePirate Dec 2015 #15
"(A)ddiction to guns"? Are you a licensed telepsychologist, or merely playing one on the net? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #18
Until you gunbers start to value human lives more than guns, you're in no position to criticize. LonePirate Dec 2015 #24
I don't own a gun, so your remote sensing is on a par with your remote psychology friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #29
Very little difference between a gunner and someone who merely supports them. LonePirate Dec 2015 #31
Your claims to moral superiority have so far been made without evidence friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #33
What do evidence and morals have to do with one another? LonePirate Dec 2015 #35
I am no ones' moral superior- and neither are you. The Second Amendment is yours to repeal friendly_iconoclast Dec 2015 #48
I am not "addicted to guns" B2G Dec 2015 #19
Why not use an alarm system, a guard dog, some mace or a baseball bat? LonePirate Dec 2015 #22
paranoia requires guns Skittles Dec 2015 #41
Holy shit! It sounds as if you must have to protect yourself from violence on a nearly daily basis! Photographer Dec 2015 #16
You assume a lot. B2G Dec 2015 #20
As well as you seem to assume. I can only infer that your fear of bad people with you in their Photographer Dec 2015 #21
But did you have a fire extinguisher handy? If so, I must infer that you fear fire constantly. X_Digger Dec 2015 #25
I did. Not enough. First home fire for me and while I still have dreams about it I don't sleep wit Photographer Dec 2015 #27
I just had this same discussion with my niece's friend on Facebook. dflprincess Dec 2015 #44
I wouldn't be surprised. They've turned paranoia and fear into an art forms. Photographer Dec 2015 #47
Lol. Ok. B2G Dec 2015 #26
Try this on for size: If there weren't so many lethal weapons out there, there woul be less reason Photographer Dec 2015 #28
How many guns are already in circulation? B2G Dec 2015 #30
There's a shitload of both types. Photographer Dec 2015 #32
K&r RandySF Dec 2015 #23
That's like 10 OP's DashOneBravo Dec 2015 #36
Not at all. I edited that out because she found it offensive but I own it. Photographer Dec 2015 #38
Many find that offensive DashOneBravo Dec 2015 #43
I'm sorry. Can we have a hug now? Photographer Dec 2015 #45
Sure DashOneBravo Dec 2015 #49
I remember playing lawn darts back in the 70's. Fun game. Waldorf Dec 2015 #39
Disarm all the criminals first, then I'll happily disarm. Jester Messiah Dec 2015 #50
So I take it you've had a lot of problems with people firing at you in churches, theaters and clinic Photographer Dec 2015 #51
Where have the last few mass murders taken place? Jester Messiah Dec 2015 #52
In the Middle East. Is that where you live? Photographer Dec 2015 #54
*sigh.* Ok, fine, be disingenuous. Jester Messiah Dec 2015 #55
I don't base that decision on mass murders...because I'm not irrational. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #70
Ww had neighbors who had lawn jarts. Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #53
K&R smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #56
The problem is not guns but the violent dialog promoted by conservative radio and conservatiave Todays_Illusion Dec 2015 #63
Taking away the 2nd amendment will do what exactly? romanic Dec 2015 #64
Absolutely fuck-all, of course. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2015 #69
Ban everything. bigwillq Dec 2015 #66
You need the votes of two thirds of Congress and three fourths of the state legislatures. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2015 #72
 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
1. and...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:03 AM
Dec 2015

Call me naïve or any number of other things, but my suggestion is no more naïve than most of the arguments that gun advocates trot out on a daily basis. It’s also no more naïve than thinking that we’ll solve our gun problem with half measures or, even worse, doing nothing.

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
61. Not naive at all...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:09 AM
Dec 2015

Australia did it after a massacre of 35 people in 1996.

"There are many American traits which we Australians could well emulate to our great benefit," he concluded. "But when it comes to guns, we have been right to take a radically different path." - John Howard

"...the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law's effectiveness."

That 59% decrease in the US would have saved about 160,000 lives in one decade.

forsaken mortal

(112 posts)
2. Come to think of it
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:05 AM
Dec 2015

Why does it seem that only guns are considered "arms"? Couldn't lawn darts be considered an arm? Should we start the National Lawndart Association, the NLA and start hiring lobbyists to protect our 2nd amendment rights to own lawndarts in case the gov't goes full dictator?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
3. That's nice
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:05 AM
Dec 2015

please give me ten minutes notice before you come for my guns so I can pick up the house a little- ok?

Response to Photographer (Reply #9)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
4. Gunners will be here to tell us it can't happen, their sick fondness for lethal weapons
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:08 AM
Dec 2015

trumps everything, and they'll use em on anyone trying to take their gunz. It's like listening to George Zimmerman claiming he's a moral, law-abiding, peaceful , pillar of society.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
8. No, all you have to do is create a plurality of the electorate who wish to
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:12 AM
Dec 2015

amend the 2a from the constitution.

The political mechanism already exists. You just have to convince enough folks to join your side.

Good luck...

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
14. ^ Spoken like someone who values guns more than the lives of their fellow Americans
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:28 AM
Dec 2015

Of course that is par for the course for gundamentalists.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
34. Are you suggesting then that you're hoping for some dictatorial edict that will make right
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:19 AM
Dec 2015

from all that is wrong with a stroke of the pen (or boot heel, or even a rifle butt)? That is wishful thinking, and worse, would probably generate more harm than good - in the long run.

Yes, democracy is messy, slow to make changes, and oftentimes extremely frustrating.

Do you have an alternative?

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
37. There is no sufficient alternative to repealing the 2A, banning and confiscating all guns.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:23 AM
Dec 2015

Accomplishing that will be messy and slow but much like abolition, it is the only possible course of action for our society.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
42. Well, see there I believe you are wrong. According to Bernie even, the vast majority of gun owners
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:37 AM
Dec 2015

are responsible individuals. I would add that they are by and large good, civic-minded folks who would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. Perhaps you already know that, but if you don't, I would suggest that you break free from your insular existence, and get out of the echo-chamber that has been feeding you mis-truths.

I get it - you don't like guns. But you're fooling yourself if you think going after GUNS is going to solve this countries problems. Think about it, if GUNS were the problem how is it the 99.9% of the folks who own them don't cause trouble?

No, what we need to being focusing on is MOTIVE - the WHY. Why are there so many who feel the need to kill and destroy? I hope you realize that getting rid of guns does not get rid of the hatred these destroyers feel.

Going after guns is just kicking the can down the road and will solve very little.

My two cents...

ryan_cats

(2,061 posts)
40. Is
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:29 AM
Dec 2015

Is there any reason at all why I should value anyone else's life?

Should I value Charles Manson's life over Jeffry Dahmer's?

Is there a yardstick that measures someone's worthiness?

elleng

(130,913 posts)
11. Not really, but do need a different interpretation,
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:15 AM
Dec 2015

one that does not 'discard' "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," as the Supreme Court did, in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller, more like Mr. Justice Stevens suggests: 'The five extra words that can fix the Second Amendment.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-five-extra-words-that-can-fix-the-second-amendment/2014/04/11/f8a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
57. Exactly. We just need to change ONE nutter Justice for a progressive one.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:48 AM
Dec 2015

Heller was a 5-4 decision. It can be overturned with a 5-4 decision.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
13. I'll make you a deal
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:25 AM
Dec 2015

Develop something like a phaser that looks and handles like a gun that will disable an attacker for a minimum of 30 minutes. I will trade you this for my firearm.

Until you have a viable self defense alternative for me, back off.

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
31. Very little difference between a gunner and someone who merely supports them.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:03 AM
Dec 2015

In both cases, they are preventing the rest of us from saving lives. Gun ownership and the support of gun ownership are morally repugnant acts unworthy of respect.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
33. Your claims to moral superiority have so far been made without evidence
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:10 AM
Dec 2015

Therefore, I will not defer to you no matter the amount of spittle-flecked invective used.

I regard attempts at guilt-tripping like yours as no way different than those of demagouges
like William Bennett of Pat Robertson (I will not dignify him with the title of 'Reverend')

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
35. What do evidence and morals have to do with one another?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:19 AM
Dec 2015

If the unnecessary and preventable deaths of thousands of Americans due to guns are insufficient reasons for gunners and their loyalists to renounce those death tools and the antiquated license to murder known as the Second Amendment, then they absolutely cannot claim any moral superiority on this subject. Pro-gun people of the 21st century are no different than pro-slavery people of the 18th and 19th centuries. They enable the destruction of life and liberty in order to support their own pathetic existence.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
48. I am no ones' moral superior- and neither are you. The Second Amendment is yours to repeal
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:43 AM
Dec 2015

All you ("you" as in gun control advocates in general, not you personally) need do
is obtain the consent of two-thirds of both houses of Congress and three-quarters
of all state legislatures. There's a problem with that idea, however...

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2014/03/10/287314912/4-reasons-the-pew-millennials-report-should-worry-democrats-too

Of all the age groups, millennials are the most supportive of same-sex marriage, the legalization of marijuana, and a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants by a wide margin. But their views on gun control and abortion are no more liberal than previous generations that Pew studied. Forty-nine percent of millennials say it's more important to protect gun rights than control gun ownership, a figure that is roughly at par with the attitudes of older generations.


Given that overheated rhetoric such as yours seems to be endemic
amongst gun control advocates, your chances of success
are somewhat less likely than, say, Donald Trump renouncing
materialism and becoming a cloistered monk...
 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
19. I am not "addicted to guns"
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:36 AM
Dec 2015

We have one in our home for defense.

But you evidently are not even willing to consider that this is a legitimate reason.

So bye.

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
22. Why not use an alarm system, a guard dog, some mace or a baseball bat?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:44 AM
Dec 2015

Your home is more dangerous, not safer, for you and your family because you have a gun in it. If you actually cared about your loved ones, you would get rid of the gun and choose a less lethal method of defending yourself.

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
16. Holy shit! It sounds as if you must have to protect yourself from violence on a nearly daily basis!
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:31 AM
Dec 2015

I am so sorry for you. I hope you can someday find somewhere safe to live.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
20. You assume a lot.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:38 AM
Dec 2015

Too much in fact.

I certainly hope you never have your door kicked in at 3 AM in a home invasion by armed men. You might change your mind about depending on the cops to get to you in time.

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
21. As well as you seem to assume. I can only infer that your fear of bad people with you in their
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:43 AM
Dec 2015

sights and constantly wanting to do you and yours harm is a rational cause for you to remain vigilantly armed and at guard.

I am thankful that I don't live in such a situation. My hotel room in a diverse neighborhood has kept me safe for several months since I was burned out of my house from an electrical fire... Do you think I should go find the electrician responsible for the short that caused the fire?

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
25. But did you have a fire extinguisher handy? If so, I must infer that you fear fire constantly.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:46 AM
Dec 2015

I'm thankful that I don't live in such a situation.

(Free clue: pretending to know what people are thinking usually ends up telling us more about your own thinking than theirs.)

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
27. I did. Not enough. First home fire for me and while I still have dreams about it I don't sleep wit
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:50 AM
Dec 2015

with a fire extinguisher but know where the exits are.

So why are you so fucking scared of armed people breaking into your home?

ON EDIT: SRY, thought you were BSG.

dflprincess

(28,078 posts)
44. I just had this same discussion with my niece's friend on Facebook.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:41 AM
Dec 2015

I never heard the fire extiquisher comparison until that discussion and now it turns up here. I wonder if it's a suggestion from The NRA? And the guy I was trying to talk to sounded like he thought he was living in a Charles Bronsan "Death Wish" movie.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
26. Lol. Ok.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:49 AM
Dec 2015

You want guns to magically disappear without providing a viable non-lethal replacement.

Why are you so opposed to the idea when the end result would be less guns? Isn't that what you want?

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
28. Try this on for size: If there weren't so many lethal weapons out there, there woul be less reason
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:53 AM
Dec 2015

for frightened people to hoard guns?

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
30. How many guns are already in circulation?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 12:58 AM
Dec 2015

How many illegally? How will you prevent criminals from obtaining them? How are you going to forcibly take them from legal gun owners?

Shouldn't this be a reality bad solution?

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
32. There's a shitload of both types.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:10 AM
Dec 2015

So I guess your vision is that there's so many that there's no reason to try anything other than adding more guns to the mix?

Sorry, that rings as fucking crazy to me. If we started pulling guns off the street tomorrow due to an Aussie type law I would imagine it might take 10-15 years to get a majority of semi auto guns off the street.

For me, the fewer guns at the restaurants and shops that I go to is a good thing.

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
36. That's like 10 OP's
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:19 AM
Dec 2015

Are you trying to push down your comment telling a rape victim she has a blood lust because she chooses to defend herself with a firearm?

DashOneBravo

(2,679 posts)
43. Many find that offensive
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:39 AM
Dec 2015

I certainly do.

You would think a pacifist and a Buddhist would have some empathy and compassion.

Waldorf

(654 posts)
39. I remember playing lawn darts back in the 70's. Fun game.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:26 AM
Dec 2015

And I think I will continue to support the 2nd Amendment.

"A fair point at one level, but most everyone’s responsible and law-abiding until they’re not."

I guess we just need to lock everybody up in the US.

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
50. Disarm all the criminals first, then I'll happily disarm.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:56 AM
Dec 2015

When you can guarantee me that no one will open fire at me in a public venue like a theater, church, or medical clinic, then I'll consider disarming. Make sure all the republicans stop threatening to resort to the ammo box when they lose at the ballot box, too. Until then, no dice.

 

Photographer

(1,142 posts)
51. So I take it you've had a lot of problems with people firing at you in churches, theaters and clinic
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:58 AM
Dec 2015

(s).

That sux. Glad I don't live in your neighborhood.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
70. I don't base that decision on mass murders...because I'm not irrational.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:06 AM
Dec 2015

One's chances of becoming a victim of a mass murder may be higher than of being the target of an Islamist terrorist...but not by much. Neither event is commonplace enough to make basing one's actions on their probability anything other than irrational. Ordinary violent crime, however, is another matter.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
53. Ww had neighbors who had lawn jarts.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:12 AM
Dec 2015

We had a lot of fun with them that summer after 8th grade. Then Becky and Cindy became more interesting.

Todays_Illusion

(1,209 posts)
63. The problem is not guns but the violent dialog promoted by conservative radio and conservatiave
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:41 AM
Dec 2015

political rhetoric. Why be suckered into what has been assigned to "liberals," by conservatives to gather votes, you are providing them with the confirmation bias they all seek and it is a lie. I am a liberal and I am not opposed to gun ownership. But most of all I know the violence is a problem created by the dialog. I can say this honestly having been born in a rural environment where everyone had guns, but everyone was then also taught reverence for human life and to never point that gun at a human. There was never a discussion that you might want to kill a person with what were varmint guns to protect livestock or for hunting.

The dialog now seems to be, got a problem, get a gun, don't like someone, get a gun, damn the violent talk, the fear mongering, the promoters of violence as a solution, and this has now become a grand vote generator for Republicans if you are opposed to gun ownership you must want to endanger them. They are such babies, but they are winning and we have lost a lot of political power on this stupid issue and the real problem with violence in this nation is the violent dialog.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
64. Taking away the 2nd amendment will do what exactly?
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:53 AM
Dec 2015

I read the article but I don't understand what "the fix" is.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
72. You need the votes of two thirds of Congress and three fourths of the state legislatures.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 10:06 AM
Dec 2015

Didn't GO(PU) senators just vote unanimously the other day to allow folks deemed so dangerous to be placed on 'no fly" lists to buy guns?


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