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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:48 PM Dec 2015

In dealing with the Fox News "Norway has a higher mass shooting fatality rate than the US" junk

I saw this on Facebook today,



Which on its face seems to claim that Norway and several other European countries have a more pressing problem with mass shooting fatalities than we do.

I didn't crunch the numbers to see if the rates were accurate. I didn't have to. This is extremely misleading on Fox News' part.

There's no mystery why Norway's on the top of the list. It's because of the 2011 Anders Breivik shooting, where 67 youth campers were massacred in Norway. Those 67 deaths are going to make much more of an impact per million in Norway, where there are only 5 million people total, compared to over 300 million here.

The US doesn't have anything in recent years that measures up with the Breivik shooting. The closest we have is Virginia Tech, which had 32 deaths.

But we also had Sandy Hook, San Bernadino, Charleston, Aurora, Umpqua, and many others. I doubt Norway has anything even remotely prevelant in terms of total mass shootings compared to what we have.

It's classical statistical outliers. If you took away the most deadly mass shooting in each country (for example, Breivik in Norway, Virginia Tech in US), my guess is that the numbers would look very different.

Don't want to believe me, Mr. Random DU Poster Guy? Fine. Take this statistician's input on the very same matter, instead:

http://www.charlespetzold.com/blog/2015/07/De-Obfuscating-the-Statistics-of-Mass-Shootings.html

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In dealing with the Fox News "Norway has a higher mass shooting fatality rate than the US" junk (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2015 OP
Its the arithmetic, they just can't get it right. Historic NY Dec 2015 #1
Damn with all of our excellence, we never manage to be #1 in anything anymore. LiberalArkie Dec 2015 #2
Funny how they don't tout the overall gun violence numbers, tabasco Dec 2015 #3
Anyway, there is no clear correlation between gun ownership and mass shootings Yorktown Dec 2015 #4
This is why we can't have a solution ... earthside Dec 2015 #7
Yup. Claiming to ban weapons in the US is a pipe dream. Yorktown Dec 2015 #8
Actually, it would be very reasonable to ban handguns and semi-autos in the U.S. tabasco Dec 2015 #13
Most unreasonable post of the thread. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #16
Switzerland tightly regulates ammunition, and hunting rifles are not much use in mass attacks Scootaloo Dec 2015 #14
Homogeneity, no, you didn't see Yorktown Dec 2015 #18
I suspect the Belgium situation has the same reason you mention. randys1 Dec 2015 #5
Of course that chart would come from Faux Snooze. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #6
Mass shootings probably aren't even the worst and most horrific statistic. MH1 Dec 2015 #9
Crime Prevention Research Center ... GeorgeGist Dec 2015 #10
Was just going to post something similar.Fox columnist. Fla Dem Dec 2015 #11
The statistic is probably accurate exboyfil Dec 2015 #12
Why the U.S. is No. 1 -- in mass shootings Stargleamer Dec 2015 #15
The U.S. isn't #1 in rampage killings. Kang Colby Dec 2015 #20
Similar situation with occupational hazards ThoughtCriminal Dec 2015 #17
Breivik also wasn't the only mass shooting in Norway in the past decade Recursion Dec 2015 #19
Statistics... Snobblevitch Dec 2015 #21

LiberalArkie

(15,716 posts)
2. Damn with all of our excellence, we never manage to be #1 in anything anymore.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:50 PM
Dec 2015

Edit: Maybe we are #1 in the number of people we kill world wide?

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
3. Funny how they don't tout the overall gun violence numbers,
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:53 PM
Dec 2015

in which the USA is far and beyond every developed nation on Earth. You're just as dead if you're murdered in a mass killing or a single victim shooting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
4. Anyway, there is no clear correlation between gun ownership and mass shootings
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:53 PM
Dec 2015

Switzerland men keep their war weapon at home after their national service
France has 30% of the population owning weapons (mostly hunting rifles)
Barely any mass shootings

Gun ownership is just one variable. Stable social homogeneity might be another.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
7. This is why we can't have a solution ...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:05 PM
Dec 2015

... because we will not have a reasonable discussions about guns and crime.

Culture has a lot to do with how guns are viewed and used in a society/country.

The extreme gun nuts really do believe a gun has talismanic powers and that the 2nd Amendment is absolute.
The extreme gun controllers hate all guns and want them pretty much abolished.

I think there is middle ground, but hardly anybody wants to go there.

But politically, Democrats, liberals and progressives would be better off, in my estimation, to start be addressing the culture aspects to at least try and move the debate to some common ground.

That's not going to happen and we will be arguing about this again next month probably.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
8. Yup. Claiming to ban weapons in the US is a pipe dream.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:14 PM
Dec 2015

It would be more fruitful to do proper/reasonable analysis & proposals.

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
13. Actually, it would be very reasonable to ban handguns and semi-autos in the U.S.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:27 PM
Dec 2015

Anyone who can't defend their home, take a deer, or get their jollies with a bolt-action rifle and a shotgun will be shit out of luck.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
16. Most unreasonable post of the thread.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:39 PM
Dec 2015

There are over 120 million semi-automatic weapons in the US.

You cannot ban that number constitutionally because the numbers alone suggest long term legal use of them, thus a band fails the reasonableness test set in Heller and makes such a ban unconstitutional.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
14. Switzerland tightly regulates ammunition, and hunting rifles are not much use in mass attacks
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:31 PM
Dec 2015

Also, nice "homogeneity" argument. I see what you did there.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
18. Homogeneity, no, you didn't see
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:49 PM
Dec 2015

Immigration, like that of the US, generates wealth and new ideas.

But every coin, however shiny, has a flip side.

I suppose it is hardly doubtful that the richness of diversity causes tension.

Mostly creative tension, but tension nevertheless.

In the absence of a 'mass study' on mass shootings, I wouldn't discard sociological homogeneity as one of the factors in mass killings is all I ventured to say.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,721 posts)
6. Of course that chart would come from Faux Snooze.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 01:59 PM
Dec 2015

A chart that accurately depicts how much gun violence with multiple victims exists in each country would show the number of mass shooting incidents, not the number of victims. Norway has had exactly one such incident. I've lost track of the number in the U.S. To say that these "statistics" are disingenuous is putting it mildly.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
9. Mass shootings probably aren't even the worst and most horrific statistic.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:17 PM
Dec 2015

What about the rate of young children accidentally killing or maiming themselves or others?

I'm betting the U.S. is number one in that statistic.

Fla Dem

(23,682 posts)
11. Was just going to post something similar.Fox columnist.
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 02:36 PM
Dec 2015

"CPRC was founded by Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., snip---He is currently a Fox News columnist."

I'm sure Dr Lott found a way to skew the numbers to please his FOX overlords.

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
12. The statistic is probably accurate
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:19 PM
Dec 2015

because they took a particular slice in time (from the Norway mass shooter to now). This is the reason why a small number in statistics is not particularly indicative of anything. Take you time sample from one day after that mass shooting, and the Norway number would be zero. Go back twenty years and the number goes down as well.

Obama was incorrect in his statement regarding mass shootings. Other developed countries do experience them, and the rate is dependent on time frame you collect the statistic. Obviously the better statistic is the per capita homicide rate in which the U.S. is 3 to 4 times greater than the rest of the developed world.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,047 posts)
17. Similar situation with occupational hazards
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:43 PM
Dec 2015

One night at Kitt Peak Observatory in Arizona an astronomer stepped out onto a high walkway. The telescope dome moved and he a knocked off the platform and fell to his death.

That year, "Astronomer" became one of the most hazardous occupations in the United States because the loss of one individual in a small group gave the profession a very high death rate.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
19. Breivik also wasn't the only mass shooting in Norway in the past decade
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 09:56 PM
Dec 2015

They've actually got something of a problem with it too.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
21. Statistics...
Sat Dec 5, 2015, 10:14 PM
Dec 2015

This is as bad as saying Wyoming, a state with fewer gun control laws than say, California, has a bigger problem with gun violence than California.

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