Any christian symbolism on public property should be torn down.

I don't care about the origins of the thing, it's been pretty firmly christian for hundreds of years now.

They represent the pagan half of Christmas (winter solstice, Santa, etc).

My theory is that the Pagan festival grew out of a need to share belongings with your neighbors to help them through the winter. During particularly harsh winters folks would probably not even see each other until Spring, so to make sure that everyone got through it, you would exchange provisions as a way of saying, "hey, here's some items to hold you over until I see you in the Spring".

Exchanging provisions as a part of a festival gets around any pride that folks may feel.

What do you think?

I think the evergreens were used as a promise of the Sun's rebirth. For the festival I think they would come together and feast on the all the produce from the harvest before the long hard winter? I guess there were lots of sacrifices at that time of year?

When it comes to things like trees presents parties etc.

They are beautiful. I just put mine up and it brings joy and happiness.

But I'm not surprised you think that.

I am curious how you do not see it as a Christian symbol.

My church did not put up a tree. The priest at my church was old school and actually forbid it inside the church.

......was a lot stricter. Masses were done in Latin, you couldn't touch the wafer, the priest performed the mass with his back turned.

My priest was old school as I said. Any decorating that had no actual reason to be in church was not allowed. When he passed away, it was a big deal that a tree was finally permitted in the CCD classrooms downstairs. To this day, there has still never been a tree in the chapel as far as I know. I haven't been in there in 20 years.

I don't get that at all. Here's why: the Christmas tree, to non-Christians (like me), is about Christmas. And Christmas is a Christian holiday. Of course there's blending, intermarriage, diversity initiatives etc, and maybe pagan origins, but it's still a key decoration for a key Christian holiday. No?

Also, you do realize there are plenty of non religious and atheist people who have Christmas trees, right?

Most clergy would prefer people eschew XMas trees for nativity scenes.

Christmas has become a secular catch all holiday. I'm sorry if you find it distasteful, but just like it morphed from pagan to xtian, it's morphed to a secular and maybe worse, a corporate holiday

Frosty is areligious, just winterish.

Mine is just a different perspective -- that of a never-been-Christian person. I can see how folks coming from a traditional Christian upbringing see it as so watered down that it feels secularized to you.

Even as much as Christmas has morphed, as you say, via commercialization and "intermarriage" between people of different religions, etc, it is to many non-Christians, no way a secular holiday. It's just interesting that we see it so differently based on where we come from.

Thanks for your thoughts... and peace to you

Had a very shiny noooose.
And if you ever saw him,
You would even say it gloooows.

Rats I forgot the next line....

OH...

All of the other reindeer,
Used to laugh and call him naaames.
They never let poor Rudolph,
Join in any reindeer gaaames.

Then one foggy Christmas Eeeve,
Santa came to saaay,
Rudolph with your nose so bright,
Won’t you guide my sleigh tonight?

Then all the reindeer loved himmmm,
As they shouted out with gleeeee,
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeeeer,
You’ll go down in historeee!


Sooo, why is Rudolph a Christmas symbol, but the other reindeer are not?

These are real life reindeer. They pull Santa Claus' sleigh with all the presents- baseballs, dolls, tablets, toy guns, all that stuff.

are what our diocese has up now. I mean huge, like six feet around

That gets me fucking PISSED!

20 years ago I would have just thought it was a non-issue. Not any more.

majority of it's citizens celebrate Christmas - and joins in with a tree - should neither surprise nor alarm anyone. IOW - recognizing or even celebrating is not the same as establishing.

Who knows - perhaps in the next 20 years the vast majority of citizens won't recognize Christmas - or will recognize some other "holiday" with a tree.

Not to mention that as time rolls on the US is becoming more secular. Who knows - you may be allergy free before you know it...

Got me smiling at just the right moment!

or House Chaplain or prayers, no inauguration day opening and closing prayers--none of it.

Aside from amendments allowing the free exercise of religion and prohibiting establishment of religion, and an 18th century dating convention, the only mention the Constitution makes of religion is to say there shall be no religious test for President. Take a hint.

But, the tree is the most secular of all the christmas displays. I would be opposed to a nativity scene. But, not the tree.

As to the national prayer breakfast, it would be impossible for me to agree with you more. Same with the congressional chaplains and opening prayers. Those have to go.

Even if one considers it a religious holiday, it's in the wrong month for that. So, i just consider it a winter holiday.

I'll going with the tempest in a teapot analogy. And, there are few people as anti-religious than me. This just doesn't rate high on my "pissed off-ometer"

It's an open forum. I need permission to comment?

I love the lights of Christmas.

Raised by an agnostic and an atheist lol, but we all loved Christmas!

I see it as a pagan seasonal symbol of celebration. And I so love the scent of them. There is nothing more heartwarming and cosy!

I have real problems to worry about.

That's just so....................logical.

And now adopted by fundamentalist Christians as a symbol of mindless consumption.

Oh--and those pagans! Can't forget them! They deserve a holiday, as well!

They want to have a holiday with a fantasy character for their kids. The nerve of them! Stone them! Point a finger and accuse them of "mindless consumption" because they want to give their children toys!

How DARE they?!!!!

It's a holiday that boosts the economy during a period of time when, due to cold weather, people might be less inclined to shop. It helps small businesses. People book venues for holiday parties and socialize during a time where they otherwise might not. Some of them even take a moment and choose to be a bit NICER to one another!

This humorless, scroogy stuff is pretty amusing to me, though. Only on DU!!!! Ho, ho, ho!

organize a gift-giving event for public official, celebrities, and private entities to donate money to various charities.

If Barbara Boxer wanted to donate some money to Planned Parenthood, she could. It would be one of the "gifts."

If Jeff Sessions did not wish to donate to Planned Parenthood, he would't have to, and cold donate to a cause of his choice.

They smell good and they're pretty. I also like Christmas presents. FYI, I heard recently that Jesus was born in August so it's all just another level of baloney for a wintry marketing scheme. Christmas tree, holiday tree, pine tree with lights. I don't care. Let people call it whatever the heck they want.

I don't think it is weird, though .... extraordinary art is associated with religion. Obviously, we can both appreciate the art without ascribing to the beliefs

that is why they object to it.

It is a hard point to argue, don't you think? And, really, why would you use it against a friend whose religion and feelings you respect?

NOT Christian. That is what I would argue and yes, I do respect religious tolerance across the board--as well as those who argue against any religion.

I'd also note that many contemporary Jews do allow for a tree in their home--alongside the menorah.

Just as I refuse to let the RW expropriate the US flag as a Republican symbol (or Christianity as only the purview of the RW), I think we should not allow those pushing the ridiculous contrived "war on Christmas" to make these secular holiday symbols (and particularly those rooted in paganism) something they are not.

seriously would not have a Christmas tree in their home unless they intermarried or something along those lines. Or maybe if trying to be nice to Christian friends or blend in.

in their home.

But Judaism by definition is different than, and does not incorporate, Christian artifacts.

If you are Jewish, and put up a Christmas Tree, you are doing it wrong.

Doing WHAT wrong?

might lend a clue.

And yes, you are correct that my sentence structure was flawed. I think it ought to be clear that I meant that Judaism is by definition different from Christianity.

And of course they should put up a Christmas tree if they want to, everyone has the right, IMO, to craft their own spiritual traditions. That is OBV not the point.

Blue and white lights, lots of tinsel. It looks pretty cool.

Ya can't generalize.

Do your Jewish friends object to the National Menorah on the White House lawn?

I guess my question really is if someone who is Jewish is interpreting the xmas tree as christian, why wouldn't one accept that and leave it there? I wouldn't press the point because I really don't feel the need to have my non-Jewish point of view "proven" right.

My dtr married a Jewish man and my granddaughters are being raised Jews. However, my dtr (not raised in any church) really loved christmas and the tree so she has one every year. They also observe Hannukka and the major Jewish holidays. They've all had bat mitzvah's. But they don't go to services on shabbat.

at images of lighted trees and Santa and think "Oh, golly, gee--That brings to mind the ostensible Virgin Birth of Christ The Lord!" I think they think--if they think anything at all beyond "Oh no, the HOLIDAYS are upon us again" that they're thinking "Well, isn't that perky on a dull winter's day...."

Japan LOVES Christmas. You'll see lights and people dressed up as Santa all over the place. I don't think they're all going to midnight services, though. They like the gifts and the red Santa suit. Any excuse for a party!

Same for many other non Christians including myself

Christmas is a national (federal) holiday, after all.

when it first started out, most of the people in the country were observant Christians, so it makes sense this stuff lingers. And we have the days off, with the common consent that most people want that day off.

In our school district now they get all Jewish holidays too.

Christmas was not observered by the Puritains. In fact it was outlawed in the colony.

Yes, Christmas as we know it now is more of a Victorian construct.

The nation, i.e. the people, are majority Christian of some sort with a culture that's heavily influenced by Christianity, particularly the Protestant variety. The state has no religion. The word country, as applied to America, is synonymous with the nation-state. It seems pedantic, but it's usually best to have the terms defined before arguing over them. Otherwise, it's just another nerd slapfight.

The National Christmas Tree is a live tree. It was planted in the 70s and has been there ever since. The Capitol Christmas tree is a live tree that is chosen from a different state each year. This year the tree came from Alaska. The National Christmas Tree is maintained by the National Park Service. I have no problem with a national tree.

To keep it alive and all.

Not too terrible but transplanting can be traumatic to trees. I wonder if the trees go back to their home states to be replanted and maintained as the state tree.

and our mostly artificial interest in things of nature.

I like trees

anything that lights up the darkness this time of year is OK with me.

I love all the lights. I don't care if there are nativity scenes. Or lighted angels or whatever in people's yards.

I just like all of it. Lights and wreaths and Xmas trees in people's windows.

Winter here is simply so long and dark.

Anyone who pretends it's not Christian privilege, or that there is no exclusionary aspect, or that it would be seen as just as ok if it were a National Menorah, is either lying, idiotic or trolling.

I'm used to Christian privilege and marginalization of non-believers in the US, and this example of it is too far down the list to be much of a worry. But that doesn't mean it doesn't belong on the list.

As an athiest since I was 14 (now 65) I could give a flying fuck. A national Creche would disturb me but really, getting upset about a pagan custom re-purposed is like getting upset over Starbucks coffee cups. I have better things to do with my time. I'm much more worried about the fact that it is now acceptable to spew racist, mysoginist, homophobic, Islamophobic hate on our airwaves without challange. That scares the shit out of me.

Thank you. Well said!

National, Christmas, sequoia, birch, dogwood. Preferably live trees. Plant a tree for Christmas! Plant a tree for Hannukah! Plant a tree....period!

-JB

For the support and the word play.



-JB

I wouldn't care if they changed the name and put up other symbols as well plus a Festivus pole.

Even in schools, we can have prayer groups as long as they're optional, run by students, are after school, and welcome every child.

Thing is, we can have ANY kind of prayers, from ANY religion. No one religion can pressure another to stay or go.

If enough people demanded the national Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny or Unicorn, politicians would serve them up, too.

It is a secular symbol. Even (most) atheists enjoy Christmas.

Not surprisingly, some people enjoy living up to stereotypes here.

Our household is totally atheistic, neither myself nor my wife and kids have a shred of religious belief whatsoever. We still love putting up a tree. It's about beauty and lights and traditional good cheer for us.

I see a lot of people have already started celebrating THAT holiday with the traditional "airing of grievances."

.......with lots of lights.... isn't that what Pastafarians do?

Or as represented as they wish to be. That said, I voted yes because a Christmas tree is the least of my worries about the nation. We have more important things to worry about. It's such a small battle to me that it barely registers as an issue at all.

a large, healthy tree is sacrificed each year for this celebration of a cultish organization which has browbeat its way into our political and social realm.

Bah humbug!

Are the 10% remaining the far, far left?

I consider most holidays cultural and, since we are here in America, all kinds of celebrations and decorations are fair game for me!

I think those fancy trees are originally from the Druids, maybe even some earlier folks.

I usually skip the "fasting and self examination" holidays but anything that includes special food is high on my list!

Anything but that!

It's not a Cross.

The tree is fine with me.

... then I would be opposed to a national Christmas tree. Christmas and most of the related traditions (lights, gifts, drinking) haven't been about Christianity for 95%+ of people in many, many years.

Full disclosure: I'm a wild-eyed atheist who's also crazy about Christmas. Easily my favorite holiday.

But I like to see the stick up asses over it.

will encourage spring to return?

You can call it a Chanukah Bush, or Shinto Bonsai, or whatever....or just a "holiday tree" if you'd like.

We have a national menorah, too. We do the Seven S table for Now Ruz at the White House....they do a fast-breaking Iftar meal for Ramadan, too....








We're an inclusive nation--nothing wrong with the White House celebrating "with" these different groups.

You don't have to belong to the club to enjoy the party.

Past the Nativity Scene, there's not much Christian in them.

Axial Tilt may be the reason for the season, but I say enjoy the cookies and candles! Every religion has a holiday for lighting up the long dark nights and making them meaningful.