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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 11:50 PM Dec 2015

In Venezuela, the 1% won yesterday-there's nothing else you can say.

With the "opposition" controlling the legislature, Venezuela will no longer be an independent country, but once again an American colony.

Social services will be cut to nothing. The oil will be privatized(meaning the people of Venezuela will no longer benefit at all from their country even having oil) and the rich and the Americans will swagger around again as if they are the natural, eternal rulers.

Hopefully, the people's movement will learn and recover.

But for the next few years, there can be nothing but misery.

Everything humane and democratic and empowering for the people, for the time being, will stop. The economy will be "diversified&quot i.e., once again subordinated to Wall Street). The community councils(the only voice the poor and the workers of Venezuela ever had, since the poor and the workers can never have a real say under "representative democracy"

The people voted...but they voted under crushing pressure from outside.

And the anti-chavistas here, all of whom have lived lives of nothing but privilege and comfort, will tell us we should be celebrating this. As if "Scandinavian social democracy" can ever be built out of a fire sale of a nation's resources and dignity.

Sickeningly, the "Socialist International&quot which is clearly no longer socialist in any sense now)was happy about the victory of the Venezuelan Thatcherites and their leader, Henry "the Marco Rubio of Venezuela" Capriles.

Maybe someday, Venezuela will be free again.

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In Venezuela, the 1% won yesterday-there's nothing else you can say. (Original Post) Ken Burch Dec 2015 OP
. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #1
Wrong, the people won, GGJohn Dec 2015 #2
The people can't actually be happy that a Thatcherite agenda is now going to be imposed.. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #5
I'm happy that the people of Ven. got to choose who they want without violence or fraud. GGJohn Dec 2015 #7
The people of Venezuela got to choose who they wanted without violence or fraud Ken Burch Dec 2015 #8
I disagree, the people will be watching them very closely and will vote them out if they try GGJohn Dec 2015 #10
If the Caprilistas ALLOW another election, that is. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #59
OFFS, GGJohn Dec 2015 #60
Well, it's pretty simple. Adrahil Dec 2015 #83
You are a "strange Democrat". Jim Beard Dec 2015 #11
Why? GGJohn Dec 2015 #13
No, because you walk 'lockstep'.... daleanime Dec 2015 #28
I actually consider myself more of an independent with a liberal bent, GGJohn Dec 2015 #39
What "Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges"???? COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #15
you really have weird views of what is actually happening there...where do you get your info? snooper2 Dec 2015 #25
There were no "Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges" hack89 Dec 2015 #33
"The Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges did massive damage." EX500rider Dec 2015 #46
When was the last time you had to waste a day to stand in line to buy shadowrider Dec 2015 #53
The toilet paper shortage was caused by the rich hoarding the stuff. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #58
Oh? And just who is claiming that? GGJohn Dec 2015 #61
If it gets them toilet paper and a lower murder rate than Brazil they can (nt) Recursion Dec 2015 #65
The PSUV has had almost 20 years to get it's shit together cheapdate Dec 2015 #3
Pretty much. Bradical79 Dec 2015 #19
Chavez was a demagogue who dilapidated the oil windfall Yorktown Dec 2015 #4
"The people of Venezuela will no longer benefit from their country having oil"? Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #6
Pretty hard to make money on crude oil these days.... Jim Beard Dec 2015 #9
Last I heard, it was at $38.41. eom. GGJohn Dec 2015 #12
Which means things would be just as bad if Capriles had won the last election. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #16
That's why some Chavistas wanted Maduro to lose. joshcryer Dec 2015 #44
Chavez style socialism destroyed the economy. former9thward Dec 2015 #14
What is your personal experience with Venezuela? Bradical79 Dec 2015 #17
You'll find that to be the case with several prominent COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #71
Good riddance to bad rubbish n/t Godhumor Dec 2015 #18
In Venezuela, people who want to wipe their ass with toilet paper won. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #20
Privatization at fire sale prices doesn't buy toilet paper. n/t. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #21
It's a little late for that, Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #22
It's not like making deals with China is automatically a moral outrage. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #45
The pillaging of Venezuela has been finished for a very long time Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #66
It can never be progressive to go from socialism to capitalism, though. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #67
Have you been to Eastern Europe? Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #69
That was Stalinism or state capitalism, not socialism in any recognizable sense. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #75
Without the Soviet Union the institutions of Eastern Europe were unsustainable Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #93
Stalinism is just dictatorship, it has nothing in common with the values of socialism. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #94
Left to their own devices they would have been failed states in mere months. Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2015 #100
The ink has been spilled because Stalin's crimes Ken Burch Dec 2015 #105
Their most socialist website is literally... joshcryer Dec 2015 #43
Yep. Any true patriot should cheerfully COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #72
The voters spoke overwhelmingly, and can speak Codeine Dec 2015 #23
That is just awful! elias49 Dec 2015 #57
same happened with the opening of relations with Cuba JI7 Dec 2015 #92
You've badly misunderstood the concept of "freedom" FBaggins Dec 2015 #24
I warned that this would happen bluestateguy Dec 2015 #26
No. they are not allowed to have "western european democratic socialism model" Nyan Dec 2015 #35
"When they try to nationalize their natural resource so they could have middle.... EX500rider Dec 2015 #48
Yeah right Nyan Dec 2015 #62
My point was about 70% of oil producing countries have nationalized their oil.. EX500rider Dec 2015 #63
It's not just about access to Nyan Dec 2015 #64
Elections have consequences. In this case, a large majority of he voters decided that the Chanvezite Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #27
Funny how US government never said that about Chavez government Nyan Dec 2015 #31
Complain to the US Government, not me. The people of Venezuela have spoken. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #34
So did you defend Chavez when they constantly demonize him as being tyrant Nyan Dec 2015 #36
The people of Venezuela elected Chavez. My opinion of him is irrelevant. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #38
Yep Nyan Dec 2015 #29
Examples of "over the top right-wing corporate COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #73
Crickets....... COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #85
The 1% held the country hostage by hording toilet paper. Cheese Sandwich Dec 2015 #30
Once again... "the voters are too STUPID to vote for the candidate -I- like" brooklynite Dec 2015 #32
I have never insulted the voters anywhere. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #47
Bad things happen when you wreck your economy and impoverish your people. nt hack89 Dec 2015 #37
The oil price collapse made the economic crisis unavoidable. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #50
Except their economic problems WAY predate the recent drop in oil prices. EX500rider Dec 2015 #55
Actually no hack89 Dec 2015 #68
You can say the "wrong people" won Blue_Tires Dec 2015 #40
Venezuelanalysis.com PufPuf23 Dec 2015 #41
About venezuelanalysis.com.... EX500rider Dec 2015 #49
Noted. "The site has been favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution and to a Social Democracy" PufPuf23 Dec 2015 #56
Blame Saudi Arabia and U.S. oil production AZ Progressive Dec 2015 #42
Except Venz.'s economic problems predate the current downturn in oil prices.. EX500rider Dec 2015 #51
Exactly betterdemsonly Dec 2015 #54
Maduro really had a run of bad luck - he was born stupid and COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #70
At least he is not an evil greedy bully, like the people who run things now. betterdemsonly Dec 2015 #74
And just WHO do you think is "running things now"????? COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #84
Wallstreet investers and oil oligarchs that funded the opposition. betterdemsonly Dec 2015 #88
You really need to do your homework and learn something about COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #91
Incompetence can be just as bad. Adrahil Dec 2015 #103
Bernie !!!! or we're next . n/t orpupilofnature57 Dec 2015 #52
Interesting... MrWendel Dec 2015 #76
None of the poor could possibly be happy that social programs will be slashed. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #78
They had... MrWendel Dec 2015 #87
How about the ruling party lost rpannier Dec 2015 #77
I've never said the PSUV were infallible. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #79
I understand and I'm not happy at the results rpannier Dec 2015 #80
Sabotage always wins malaise Dec 2015 #81
Your home country had a horrible experience with that. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #89
At what point should the Bolivarians be held avcountable for failure? Adrahil Dec 2015 #82
At the very least, the anti-Chavista left parties should have formed their own alliance. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #95
Could they have won? Adrahil Dec 2015 #102
They could have taken enough seats to hold the balance of power between PSUV and MUD Ken Burch Dec 2015 #104
Trust me - you can fight back laserhaas Dec 2015 #86
I thank the gods I'm a Mexicanist... a la izquierda Dec 2015 #90
Silver lining: Venezuela Elects First Transgender Congresswoman in the Americas KamaAina Dec 2015 #96
It's something, I guess. Ken Burch Dec 2015 #97
"Too bad she's a right-wing stooge like Caitlyn" EX500rider Dec 2015 #98
Well, her party is in coalition with the right KamaAina Dec 2015 #99
MADuro enid602 Dec 2015 #101

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
2. Wrong, the people won,
Mon Dec 7, 2015, 11:57 PM
Dec 2015

judging by the landslide, it was not just the 1%, but a hell of a lot of former Chavez supporters.

According to the election moniters, this was a clean, transparent election, so any claims of fraud are false.
There's absolutely no proof that there was outside, crushing pressure, but if there was, post your proof so that all may see and judge for themselves.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
5. The people can't actually be happy that a Thatcherite agenda is now going to be imposed..
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:14 AM
Dec 2015

The Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges did massive damage.

You can't seriously think anything humane, egalitarian or positive is going to come from this. No right-wing victory every leads to a left-of-center greater good. I accept the result, but anyone who cares about the workers and the poor will also mourn it, since nobody in the opposition cares about those on the bottom...you can't care about people like that and support privatization and austerity.

In two years, nothing Chavez and the Bolivarians did will remain. Social equality will be abolished. All gains made by Afro-Venezuelans and the indigenous will be revoked. But some will say this is ok because the rich will have themselves photographed doing "charity" for the poor.

That's the only possible outcome for the next decade ago.

Why are you happy about this?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
7. I'm happy that the people of Ven. got to choose who they want without violence or fraud.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:19 AM
Dec 2015

Why are you unhappy with an honest election?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
8. The people of Venezuela got to choose who they wanted without violence or fraud
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:28 AM
Dec 2015

in every election the PSUV ever won. It's not like this was the first election since 1996 that was legitimate. I said I accepted the result...but that doesn't mean people who care about the workers and the poor shouldn't see it as a tragedy.

None of the "opposition" parties supports anything that will be good for the people the Left fights for. The fact that they pretend this coalition is "centrist" and that a couple of tiny, irrelevant "social democratic" parties will be powerless junior partners in this coalition doesn't change the fact that every measure it will pass will be reactionary and socially brutal...

Chavismo had some problems, but putting the old Venezuelan upper classes back in power isn't going to be the answer to anything. Privatization and austerity can never be the answer. Begging the American oil companies to come back and dominate life again can never be the answer.

And you can assume that Capriles and Co. are going to be cheering for the Republicans in 2016. They would never agree with anything Bernie would support..

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
10. I disagree, the people will be watching them very closely and will vote them out if they try
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:33 AM
Dec 2015

anything you've suggested.
Time will tell, but for now, the people voted and the people won fair and square.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
59. If the Caprilistas ALLOW another election, that is.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 09:06 PM
Dec 2015

If they call a "state of emergency", the U.S. regime(unless Bernie gets in)will defend it.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
60. OFFS,
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 09:09 PM
Dec 2015

the same thing was said of the Chavista's, it didn't happen and there's no reason to believe the opposition will do so.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
83. Well, it's pretty simple.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:53 AM
Dec 2015

If the Bolivarians want to win elections, they need to come up with something new. The old plans were cleqrly abject failures. At some point, when you've failed, you have to ty something different. The Bolivarians have wrecked the economy. Whatever good they intended or indeed accomplished is accompanied by that fact. Clearly the people had had enough the BS ideological rhetoric and want some actual results....

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
39. I actually consider myself more of an independent with a liberal bent,
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 04:03 PM
Dec 2015

IOW, I'm my own person who looks at the issues with a critical eye and then make up my mind about how I feel about it.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
33. There were no "Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges"
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:08 PM
Dec 2015

it was their own self imposed currency laws that wrecked their economy. It is not complicated - they spent more than they made, using up their foreign reserves in the process. They then had no way to pay for imports vital to their economy.

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
46. "The Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges did massive damage."
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:34 PM
Dec 2015

Actually it was the Venz governments restrictions on currency exchange that did the massive damage. On top of rigid price controls during out of sight inflation.

shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
53. When was the last time you had to waste a day to stand in line to buy
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 08:12 PM
Dec 2015

rationed toilet paper?

Don't slam their vote unless you've walked in their shoes.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
58. The toilet paper shortage was caused by the rich hoarding the stuff.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 09:05 PM
Dec 2015

Their class did the same kind of thing when Allende was in.

And I'm not slamming anyone's vote...just expressing sadness.

More profits for the rich won't solve anything. They never have.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
3. The PSUV has had almost 20 years to get it's shit together
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:06 AM
Dec 2015

and demonstrate that it can run the country competently. Lots of people are fed up with the constant excuses. They've failed so miserably in so many ways that it almost defies imagination.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
19. Pretty much.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:55 AM
Dec 2015

What else are they going to do? Venezuela has been approaching rock bottom for awhile now. When you betray the people the way they did, they probably aren't going to vote for you if given the chance regardless of the character of the opposition. "Socialists" who spend so much effort on self enrichment and misdirection while the economy tanks aren't going to stay popular for long.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
4. Chavez was a demagogue who dilapidated the oil windfall
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:12 AM
Dec 2015

Norway stored its oil money in funds to be used over time for LT structural investments.

Chavez bought votes by giving goodies around, squandering non-renewable national assets.

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
9. Pretty hard to make money on crude oil these days....
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:32 AM
Dec 2015

check out the charts

West Texas Crude dropped below $40 a barrel today

http://www.oil-price.net/

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
16. Which means things would be just as bad if Capriles had won the last election.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:48 AM
Dec 2015

If not worse, since he would have offered the American oil companies massive tax cuts to come back and run things like the old days, which would have caused even greater declines in living standards.

joshcryer

(62,278 posts)
44. That's why some Chavistas wanted Maduro to lose.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 06:08 PM
Dec 2015

Even I said that would be the best outcome for the Chavistas...

The reckoning was going to happen. Too much graft and cronyism will come home to roost eventually.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
17. What is your personal experience with Venezuela?
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:35 AM
Dec 2015

I'd like to know where you're coming from, because a lot of what you said does not make much sense and doesn't jive from what I've heard from a few Venezuelans who were really struggling.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
71. You'll find that to be the case with several prominent
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 01:03 AM
Dec 2015

posters on this board. They've convinced themselves that they know more about Venezuela than people who have actual experience with the country and its problems, and no amount of facts or logic will sway them from their emotional attachment to the so-called 'Bolivarian revoltion'. When you actually ask a question which would require a factual answer the result is generally - crickets.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
20. In Venezuela, people who want to wipe their ass with toilet paper won.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 02:03 AM
Dec 2015

The Venezuelan 1% has been living in Miami for quite some time, lucky is the Western leftist who can demand people in the developing world suffer for their principles.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
22. It's a little late for that,
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 02:13 AM
Dec 2015

Venezuela already gave everything of value to the Chinese. My recollection is you were 100% cool with that.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
45. It's not like making deals with China is automatically a moral outrage.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:31 PM
Dec 2015

MY recollection is that you've never complained about anybody OTHER than Venezuela making such deals. But then again, you've always been an apologist for the 1%, from what I've seen.

What issues are you actually progressive about, other than maybe LGBTQ rights and choice?

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
66. The pillaging of Venezuela has been finished for a very long time
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 10:50 PM
Dec 2015

This election outcome was about halting Venezuela's plunge into communism and starvation.

I don't equate being "progressive" with wearing Che™ logowear and making heros out of inept third-world socialists and worse.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
67. It can never be progressive to go from socialism to capitalism, though.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 11:07 PM
Dec 2015

And nothing the State Department and Wall Street wants can ever be progressive, given what they've always pushed for in Latin America.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
69. Have you been to Eastern Europe?
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 11:51 PM
Dec 2015

Capitalism is the only progressive force that part of the world has ever seen.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
75. That was Stalinism or state capitalism, not socialism in any recognizable sense.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:00 AM
Dec 2015

And after the people of Eastern Europe overthrew Stalinism(which did deserve to die, and whose death I will never mourn), nonviolently and entirely on their own, the capitalists who came in brought nothing but ugliness, corporate theft and years of mass unemployment and hardship when they came in and imposed a completely unnecessary "shock therapy". Nobody should end up losing everything they have as a reward for courageously standing up to tyranny. Poland now has a "democratic capitalist" government veering toward's nationalist Catholic/antisemitic dictatorship, Hungary does as well, adding insane hatred of the Roma to the toxic mi and pretty much all capitalists in both countries are cheering this on) and the former DDR is now part of a Germany that is trying to impose permanent right-wing austerity on all European countries(while continuing to punish the people of Greece for debts caused mainly by the greed of Goldman-Sachs. Only the Czech Republic, of all the former Warsaw Pact states, retains any humane, egalitarian values in its governance. By you this is "progress"? Just because they've got stock exchanges and Starbucks?

The ideals of socialism are not the cause what Stalin and his lackeys did. Tyranny can emerge under any economic system or any other ideology or religion (capitalism and nationalism inevitably gave birth to Naziism-Fascism, distorted Christianity mixed with capitalism and nationalism helped fuel the Crusades, the Inquisition and much of the imperial vision that created the Atlantic slave trade and the genocide inflicted on indigenous people in the Americas and the Antipodes) and given the Slavic world's history of turning to supposed "great men", it's quite likely that someone like Stalin would have emerged and committed the crimes Stalin was able to

And Hugo Chavez and his supporters had nothing in common with the Stalinists.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
93. Without the Soviet Union the institutions of Eastern Europe were unsustainable
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:26 PM
Dec 2015

there was no other way than just pulling the plug. Trying to stay the course would have been disastrous, behold the economic majesty of the former Soviet client states that have tried staying the course.

And if Stalinism is an authoritarian socialist reform model, I wouldn't be so quick to say Chavez et al have nothing in common since they have seemed awfully authoritarian as of late and I don't doubt a totalitarian communist state would be the endgame if the Bolivars get their way.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
94. Stalinism is just dictatorship, it has nothing in common with the values of socialism.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:34 PM
Dec 2015

And the people of Eastern Europe should not have been forced to go from being ruled by the Soviets to being ruled by Wall Street, Goldman Sachs and "the Troika". They should have been given the chance to make a democratic future on their own terms.

All of the ugliness in that region now is the result of the forced austerity. The lesson is, no country should ever again be put through what those countries were subjected to, either before 1989 or afterwards.

The heroic protesters in Leipzig who stood up to the Stasi were NOT fighting for capitalism and inequality.

And it was indefensible for the Clinton Administration take the lead in forcing those countries into "shock therapy". A "Democratic" president is supposed to always defend humane values before short-term gain for the few.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
100. Left to their own devices they would have been failed states in mere months.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:52 PM
Dec 2015

There was no way forward for those states and their existing institutions without the Soviet Union. The ugliness is primarily ethnic nationalism that has boiled over periodically for the last five hundred years. They're feeling squeezed by Europe and they're feeling squeezed by Russia.

And there has sure been a lot of ink spilled, primarily by socialists on the subject of Soviet Socialism, so I don't think it's a misnomer.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
105. The ink has been spilled because Stalin's crimes
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 08:05 PM
Dec 2015

Have been unjustly used to demonize all forms of socialism, and, by extension, any effort to defend humane and compassionate values in any society at all.

There has been a despicable lie spread relentlessly over the past ninety-eight years now...the lie that ANY attempt to create a society run by any means other than greed and egotism, any effort to make a world in which all people are treated with dignity and respect and where no one lives in want and fear MUST end up replicating the Soviet Union under Stalin or Mao's China-that the only way to be free is to let the wealthy become more and more arrogant and demanding, and for everyone else to either just accept their lot or seek to change it solely by becoming a better selfish bastard than the existing selfish bastards.

It doesn't have to be that way.

And, in fact, we can't LET it be that way.

If we do, we're doomed as a planet.

If we are to survive, if life is to be, for the vast majority of the human race, anything on any higher level than eating, sleeping, reproducing and dying, we must keep alive the idea of running life on some sort of democratic cooperative model, because if we let that die, all we have left are "market values", and as the last thirty-four years prove, a world in which short-term gain for the few is the only model will inevitably become more and more brutal, unequal, environmentally unsustainable(capitalism will NEVER stop playing "Climate Chicken&quot and personally soul-crushing.


Much of the writing is about left critiques of where the USSR went wrong(for myself, it went off the rails when they crushed the Krondstadt Uprising in 1921, a rebellion led by Red Army soldiers and sailor on the military island of Krondstadt, which is in the harbor of St. Petersburg(or Leningrad, as it was called at the time. The soldiers and sailors were fighting to preserve the autonomy of the soviets(the workers councils, which originally operated democratically and actually reflected the will of the workers in those communities, before Lenin reduced them to being powerless "transmission handles" of Party control.)


A lot of us don't want to live in a world where nothing can ever really change for the better. And I don't want my grandchildren to get that world as our legacy to them.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
72. Yep. Any true patriot should cheerfully
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 01:04 AM
Dec 2015

wipe his/her ass with their hand to support the glorious Bolivarian 'revolution'.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
23. The voters spoke overwhelmingly, and can speak
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 02:13 AM
Dec 2015

again just as strongly if things don't improve.

Honestly, it's like a certain segment of the American Left holds the symbolic victory of their ideological views more dearly than the actual quality of life of the people in Venezuela.

I do wonder what will become of Pastor Maldonado's seat at Lotus/Renault. Without the enormous annual Chavista oil money payout there's no way he can keep that ride, though I understand at least some portion of the money for 2016 was already kicked down in view of Lotus's desperate financial straits.

Yeah, that's right; the VEN government is spending many, MANY millions annually to keep the wealthy son of one of St. Hugo's best buddies behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car. Priorities.

JI7

(89,281 posts)
92. same happened with the opening of relations with Cuba
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:43 PM
Dec 2015

<Honestly, it's like a certain segment of the American Left holds the symbolic victory of their ideological views more dearly than the actual quality of life of the people in Venezuela.>

some comments about how things will get "ruined" with the investments . with no regard for actual lives of the people who live there and how tough things have been for them.

FBaggins

(26,775 posts)
24. You've badly misunderstood the concept of "freedom"
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:38 PM
Dec 2015

Being trapped under a de-facto dictator willing to kill those who oppose him - and being ruled by corrupt and incompetent officials... is in no sense "freedom" just because you slap a "socialism" label on it.

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
26. I warned that this would happen
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:57 PM
Dec 2015

The regime's anti-democratic, anti-free speech measures and other collectivist policies were bound to provoke a shift to the right in due time. I was right.

The Chavez-Maduro regime runs counter to a western European social democratic model.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
35. No. they are not allowed to have "western european democratic socialism model"
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:26 PM
Dec 2015

Just in case you haven't picked up on that already.

When you are not white europeans, you can't have that. When they try to nationalize their natural resouces so they could have middle class and a fair distribution for their people, either CIA comes in and stages coup or election results get invalidated, leading to a civil war, or those democratic socialists get assassinated. Iran in the 50s. S. Korea in the 50s. Guatemala, Chile, Ivory Coast, I could go on and on and on.

And of course, one of the most egregious examples is Bush adminiatration's coup attempt in Venezuela. If Bush was talking about invading Norway (a country that has nationalized its oil reserves), I would accept your premise that it's all about those unruly, dark-skinned socialists in the 3rd world that just can't understand the lofty idealism of white european socialists, and that it's not at all about who's allowed to have what in the imperialist structure where western capitalists are trying to have control over wealth and resources of the people.

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
48. "When they try to nationalize their natural resource so they could have middle....
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:38 PM
Dec 2015

...........class and a fair distribution for their people, either CIA comes in and stages coup or election results get invalidated, leading to a civil war"

Nonsense, Venz. nationalized their oil way back in the '70's and the US couldn't have cared less.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
62. Yeah right
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 09:49 PM
Dec 2015

US government "couldn't have cared less" when all 56 times it's intervened in Latin American affairs. Very true!

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
63. My point was about 70% of oil producing countries have nationalized their oil..
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 09:56 PM
Dec 2015

....and the US has no problem with it.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
64. It's not just about access to
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 10:07 PM
Dec 2015

Natural resources. It's about control of it in which region. And it's not necessarily all about resources. It's about thwarting self-determination particularly in areas that US government views as its sphere of influence. Hence, its immediate neighbors, Latin America suffers the most. But then, Hegemonic power concerns every region. Red lines are everywhere. So is war.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
27. Elections have consequences. In this case, a large majority of he voters decided that the Chanvezite
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 12:59 PM
Dec 2015

government did not serve the needs of the people.

They will have another chance in the future if the current government does not meet their needs.

This is a triumph of Democracy and the people.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
31. Funny how US government never said that about Chavez government
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:06 PM
Dec 2015

Every time he won fairly, they didn't call it the triumph of democracy and people. Rather, they went so far as to stage military coup to illegally overthrow Chavez.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
34. Complain to the US Government, not me. The people of Venezuela have spoken.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:13 PM
Dec 2015

I respect their choice.
If they change their mind in a future election, that is their choice, which I respect.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
36. So did you defend Chavez when they constantly demonize him as being tyrant
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:29 PM
Dec 2015

even though he won fair and square every time? Just curious.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
38. The people of Venezuela elected Chavez. My opinion of him is irrelevant.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:40 PM
Dec 2015

Venezuelans decided Chavez's successor did not meet their needs. My opinion of him is irrelevant.
Venezuelans elected a government that falls more in line with free market and Capitalist ideas. My opinion of them is irrelevant.

Americans elect republicans that I think are scum. I respect our right, as citizens, to make decisions at the ballot box that do not meet my approval.

I think being overly faithful to any individual politician is dangerous. Chavez enjoyed a cult of personality. His successor, however, did not gain the trust or worship of the people of Venezuela. His kind of Charisma is a hard act to follow. His successor's actions did not meet the expectations of followers.

In future elections, Venezuelans have the opportunity to decide if their new government will meet their expectations. I respect their right to make that choice.

Nyan

(1,192 posts)
29. Yep
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:03 PM
Dec 2015

You nailed it.

Perhaps the only thing I might wanna add to your point is the role of over-the-top right-wing corporate media propaganda in Venezuela. It's a vicious propaganda machine, and they have had that media environment for a long time.
Along with the incessant US covert ops and sanctions shenanigans waged against the people of Venezuela, they've been holding on to the people' government for quite some time, and remarkably so.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
30. The 1% held the country hostage by hording toilet paper.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:05 PM
Dec 2015

Rat bastards.

File under "Make the Economy Scream".

brooklynite

(94,803 posts)
32. Once again... "the voters are too STUPID to vote for the candidate -I- like"
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 01:06 PM
Dec 2015

...because it's worked so well for the Sanders people.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
47. I have never insulted the voters anywhere.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:35 PM
Dec 2015

In the OP itself, I said I accepted the result. A person can accept a tragedy and still mourn it.

We both know capitalism has nothing to offer the poor anywhere in the world. The story of "microcredit&quot i.e., micro usury) proves that.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
50. The oil price collapse made the economic crisis unavoidable.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:47 PM
Dec 2015

It would have been just as bad if Venezuela had had a government that bowed and scraped to the global elite.

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
55. Except their economic problems WAY predate the recent drop in oil prices.
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 08:41 PM
Dec 2015

The shortage of consumer goods and rampant inflation are not recent problems. The drop in oil prices is.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
68. Actually no
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 11:09 PM
Dec 2015

they were in dire straits even with high oil prices. It is not complicated - they spent more than they made and couldn't pay their bills. Toss in corruption and incompetence and you see the results.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
40. You can say the "wrong people" won
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 04:17 PM
Dec 2015

but the fact of the matter is the "right people" only have themselves to blame for the ouster...

PufPuf23

(8,843 posts)
41. Venezuelanalysis.com
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 05:20 PM
Dec 2015

I have followed the Venezuelanalysis website for over a decade for more detail than generally available in US media regards Venezuela. The site has been favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution and to a Social Democracy in Venezuela.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news

About venezuelanalysis.com

Venezuelanalysis.com is an independent website produced by individuals who are dedicated to disseminating news and analysis about the current political situation in Venezuela.

The site's aim is to provide on-going news about developments in Venezuela, as well as to contextualize this news with in-depth analysis and background information. The site is targeted towards activists, academics, journalists, intellectuals, policy makers from different countries, and the general public.

Venezuelanalysis.com is a project of Venezuela Analysis, Inc., which is registered as a non-profit organization in New York State and of the Fundación para la Justicia Económica Global, which is a foundation that is registered in Caracas, Venezuela.

cut

While the site publishes opinion articles, it also aims for accuracy in the news and facts presented in all articles. Our goal is to be the primary resource for information and analysis on Venezuela in the English language.

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
49. About venezuelanalysis.com....
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:45 PM
Dec 2015
Gregory Wilpert, founder and editor: The Global Post described Wilpert as "perhaps the most prominent Chavista". Wilpert's wife Carol Delgado was named Consul General of Venezuela in New York in 2008.
The set up of Venezuelanalysis.com was also aided by the Venezuelan government.
According to Brian Nelson, author of The Silence and the Scorpion, Venezuelanalysis.com performs "damage control" for the Venezuelan government and "tried to discredit virtually every independent human rights study" while Hugo Chávez was in office as part of "an integral part of Venezuela’s propaganda complex", according to Venezuelan government sources.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelanalysis.com

PufPuf23

(8,843 posts)
56. Noted. "The site has been favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution and to a Social Democracy"
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 08:56 PM
Dec 2015

Venezuelanalysis has survived Chavez. The issues are the same.

A Social Democracy is still probably better for Venezuela and the people of Venezuela than a transnational corporate economy.

I noted that the site is favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution.

I did not know about Wilpert. That said there is more depth and breadth of reportage on Venezuela on Venezuelanalysis than one will experience of Fox, CNN, MSNBC, WAPO, NYT, network TV, WSJ, etc.

The sin of Venezuela is that it is the richest oil patch in the western hemisphere.

Note that The Silence and the Scorpion by Brian Nelson is a Chavez hit piece comparable to what would be said on Fox News regards Venezuela.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
42. Blame Saudi Arabia and U.S. oil production
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 05:59 PM
Dec 2015

Both led to the cheapening of oil in Venezuela that led to the inevitable collapse of the economy and when people are desperate, they throw the current leaders out of office no matter what they stand for.

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
51. Except Venz.'s economic problems predate the current downturn in oil prices..
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 07:49 PM
Dec 2015

...that just made it worse.
Their murder rate (2nd in the world) and inflation rate (highest in the world) have been out of control for years due to government mismanagement (thru rigid price and currency controls) and corruption.

 

betterdemsonly

(1,967 posts)
54. Exactly
Tue Dec 8, 2015, 08:35 PM
Dec 2015

This oil glut isn't over either, since Venezuela wasn't the target. The target, was Putin, Canadian oil shale and alternative energy advances like the Electric Car. The rich are not going to diversify Venezuela's economy.

You win some elections and lose some. That is democracy. Maduro has had a run of bad luck no leader could survive, but the next government won't either.

 

betterdemsonly

(1,967 posts)
88. Wallstreet investers and oil oligarchs that funded the opposition.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 12:18 PM
Dec 2015

Rich people that don't want any regulation of the economy or a safetynet for the poor and don't want to pay taxes.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
91. You really need to do your homework and learn something about
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:12 PM
Dec 2015

Venezuela before trying to sound off on subjects that you obviously know nothing about.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
103. Incompetence can be just as bad.
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:15 PM
Dec 2015

There is an old saying... never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

Stupidity and dogma kills as many people or more than outright evil. And I'm not convinced he ISN'T an evil greedy bully. He certainly loves arresting his political opponents, and forcing compliance form his judiciary. And Chavez's family managed to become VERY wealthy, despite supposed humble beginnings and a commitment to socialism. As in most things, I suspect power became more important than the people. When you are never help accountable by anyone, you begin to consider yourself accountable to no one. That applies here, IMO.

MrWendel

(1,881 posts)
76. Interesting...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:37 AM
Dec 2015

from someone who has relatives in Venezuela, ITS PARTY TIME down there. From every single one and every person they know. Yep back to chains.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
78. None of the poor could possibly be happy that social programs will be slashed.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:10 AM
Dec 2015

We can assume none of the token pretend to be lefty parties in MUD will do anything to stop that. They're happy because the rich will stop hoarding the damn toilet paper now.

There's no reason to think this won't be just as miserable as Nicaragua after the Sandinistas were voted out in 1990 and all the gains were taken away. And it's bullshit to act like this election is legitimate but every election the left won was a sham.

MrWendel

(1,881 posts)
87. They had...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 11:02 AM
Dec 2015

17 years of a socialist government. Not everyone around the world wants one. My Aunts, Uncles and cousins are excited with the results

rpannier

(24,345 posts)
77. How about the ruling party lost
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:07 AM
Dec 2015

Their gross mismanagement of the country for the past 4 years became untenable for many in Venezuela
They'll need to get their act together, find someone who can actually govern and try again

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
79. I've never said the PSUV were infallible.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 04:15 AM
Dec 2015

Just that they were the only government Venezuela ever had that cared about and empowered the workers and the poor(we both know Capriles doesn't, being a capitalist), and that they never deserved to be treated as an illegitimate government.

Can you understand why some of us feel squeamish every time supposed "liberals" in the U.S. celebrate a right-wing result in Latin America? Some of the people gloating about this also defended the Contra War in Nicaragua and the coercced victory of the reactionaries there in 1990, and then defended the HRC-backed coup in Honduras and the U.S. backed right-wing return to power in Haiti.

rpannier

(24,345 posts)
80. I understand and I'm not happy at the results
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:56 AM
Dec 2015

It would have been one thing for them to lose, but the conservatives not have their super-majority
The super majority is my biggest worry
It's something I think Venezuelans regret

malaise

(269,225 posts)
81. Sabotage always wins
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:58 AM
Dec 2015

The 1% simply locked shop - and nearly starved the population on behalf of the 'special interests'. I lived through that in the late 70s and 1980 in Jamaica.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
89. Your home country had a horrible experience with that.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 02:41 PM
Dec 2015

For those here who don't remember or were too young to live through the era, the pressure in Jamaica from the 1% there and in the U.S.(abetted, for some reason, by the Carter Administration) led to the PNP, the "left" government of the day, being defeated, then feeling obligated to abandon all left policies(other than a few trivial boutique liberal figleafs)in the hopes of being allowed to win another election.

It also led to Bob Marley being shot and wounded and feeling compelled to live out the rest of his life in exile in the UK.

Tragic times for your homeland, and I hope someday it may finally recover from all that.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
82. At what point should the Bolivarians be held avcountable for failure?
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:49 AM
Dec 2015

It seems to me that to have any credibility, there has to be some point at which abject failure is grounds for electoral loss.

When is that? Or is loyatly to ideology more important that the actual facts?

It reminds me of Republicans doggedly sticking to their plans to cut taxes and deregulate, deespite decades of evidence that it DOES NOT WORK.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
95. At the very least, the anti-Chavista left parties should have formed their own alliance.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:38 PM
Dec 2015

There was no excuse for them to align with the economic royalists around Capriles in the MUD, and to endorse the right-wing narrative that the PSUV not a "legitimate government". There was never any chance of Venezuela turning into the DDR of South America, for Goddess' sakes.

Also, it's probably that nothing authoritarian would ever have happened under Chavismo if the "opposition" hadn't keep trying to overthrow Chavez over and over again. There was never any justification at any time for anti-Chavez coup attempts, like the one in which Capriles himself scaled the walls of the Cuban Embassy looking for Bolivarians to kidnap(and, if he had succeeded in kidnapping, probably had executed).

Why couldn't they have just been a "loyal opposition"? Why did they ever have to start the orchestrated melodrama in the streets? The acceptance of defeat by the PSUV proves that none of that was ever needed, just as the acceptance of defeat by the Sandinistas in the 1990 elections proves that the entire Contra War and the thousands of innocent lives it took should never have happened at all.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
102. Could they have won?
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 01:09 PM
Dec 2015

I kind of doubt it. In the situation Venezuela is in, first you have to stop the bleeding.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
104. They could have taken enough seats to hold the balance of power between PSUV and MUD
Thu Dec 10, 2015, 07:54 PM
Dec 2015

(btw, I know you back the anti-Chavistas, but they definitely need a better acronym than that). An outcome like that would have been useful.

 

laserhaas

(7,805 posts)
86. Trust me - you can fight back
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 10:34 AM
Dec 2015

Just look over yonder - where President of Country went to jail and bankers too;
and the people won the case of claims to protect their houses and mortgages.

Oh yeah - by the way - I'm about to kick Goldman Sachs's arse...

here in good ole America

a la izquierda

(11,798 posts)
90. I thank the gods I'm a Mexicanist...
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 03:09 PM
Dec 2015

Politics there are a hell of a lot easier to understand than the train wreck that is Venezuela.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
96. Silver lining: Venezuela Elects First Transgender Congresswoman in the Americas
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:46 PM
Dec 2015
http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2015/12/07/venezuela-elects-first-transgender-congresswoman-continent

In the wake of the historical outcome of yesterday’s parliamentary elections in Venezuela, which marks the first departure from Hugo Chavez’s revolution in 17 years, transgender woman Tamara Adrian secured a seat as a member of the National Assembly. “Yesterday, Venezuela demolished its own Berlin Wall,” Adrian tells Out. Her candidacy already represented a milestone in Venezuelan politics, but with her triumph she becomes the first transgender congresswoman of the nation and, according to her, of the Americas.

“Venezuela is going through the worst economic, social and cultural crisis ever recorded,” Adrian says, explaining that her agenda includes giving visibility to the problems that the Venezuelan LGBT community systematically faces. “We have to talk about the rights of couples and families, about the gender identity Act, about the mutilation of intersex children, and about discrimination, which includes hate crimes, bullying, workplace harassment, and access to housing and healthcare.”

Before becoming a candidate, Adrian had already been leading the fight towards civil rights for the LGBT community. In 2014, she introduced a project for a marriage equality act that was never addressed. “In the past 17 years the topic of LGBT rights was never seriously discussed,” she says. Adrian, who has not been able to attain legal recognition as female under Venezuelan law, says that an important number of representatives from her political party, Voluntad Popular, and across the opposition coalition are already aware of her proposals, and that it is just a matter of time before the issues finally reach national debate.


Too bad she's a right-wing stooge like Caitlyn.
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
97. It's something, I guess.
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:49 PM
Dec 2015

She will soon learn that nobody who supports "market values" in Venezuela gives a damn about LGBTQ people. Why would they, when capitalists have no personal experience of oppression?

EX500rider

(10,881 posts)
98. "Too bad she's a right-wing stooge like Caitlyn"
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 05:50 PM
Dec 2015

You serious?

Voluntad Popular

Popular Will (Spanish: Voluntad Popular, or VP) is a left-leaning to centrist member party of the Socialist International in Venezuela, founded by Leopoldo López Mendoza, who serves as its National Coordinator.
The party was formed in reaction to alleged infringements of individual freedom and human rights on the part of the socialist government of the late Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and his successor, Nicolas Maduro. The party brings together Venezuelans of various backgrounds who consider “chavismo” oppressive and authoritarian. Popular Will identifies itself as “a pluralist and democratic movement” that is committed to “progress,” which it defines as the realization of “the social, economic, political, and human rights of every Venezuelan.”
The party’s “fundamental pillars” are progress, democracy, and social action. The party was admitted into the Socialist International in December 2014.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Will

enid602

(8,659 posts)
101. MADuro
Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:25 PM
Dec 2015

Well, hopefully members of the opposition will no longer be harassed, jailed or murdered. I'm thinking there's probably a high rise luxury condo somewhere in Miami with Maduro's name on it.

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