General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn Venezuela, the 1% won yesterday-there's nothing else you can say.
With the "opposition" controlling the legislature, Venezuela will no longer be an independent country, but once again an American colony.
Social services will be cut to nothing. The oil will be privatized(meaning the people of Venezuela will no longer benefit at all from their country even having oil) and the rich and the Americans will swagger around again as if they are the natural, eternal rulers.
Hopefully, the people's movement will learn and recover.
But for the next few years, there can be nothing but misery.
Everything humane and democratic and empowering for the people, for the time being, will stop. The economy will be "diversified" i.e., once again subordinated to Wall Street). The community councils(the only voice the poor and the workers of Venezuela ever had, since the poor and the workers can never have a real say under "representative democracy"
The people voted...but they voted under crushing pressure from outside.
And the anti-chavistas here, all of whom have lived lives of nothing but privilege and comfort, will tell us we should be celebrating this. As if "Scandinavian social democracy" can ever be built out of a fire sale of a nation's resources and dignity.
Sickeningly, the "Socialist International" which is clearly no longer socialist in any sense now)was happy about the victory of the Venezuelan Thatcherites and their leader, Henry "the Marco Rubio of Venezuela" Capriles.
Maybe someday, Venezuela will be free again.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)judging by the landslide, it was not just the 1%, but a hell of a lot of former Chavez supporters.
According to the election moniters, this was a clean, transparent election, so any claims of fraud are false.
There's absolutely no proof that there was outside, crushing pressure, but if there was, post your proof so that all may see and judge for themselves.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The Obama Administration's restrictions on currency exchanges did massive damage.
You can't seriously think anything humane, egalitarian or positive is going to come from this. No right-wing victory every leads to a left-of-center greater good. I accept the result, but anyone who cares about the workers and the poor will also mourn it, since nobody in the opposition cares about those on the bottom...you can't care about people like that and support privatization and austerity.
In two years, nothing Chavez and the Bolivarians did will remain. Social equality will be abolished. All gains made by Afro-Venezuelans and the indigenous will be revoked. But some will say this is ok because the rich will have themselves photographed doing "charity" for the poor.
That's the only possible outcome for the next decade ago.
Why are you happy about this?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Why are you unhappy with an honest election?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)in every election the PSUV ever won. It's not like this was the first election since 1996 that was legitimate. I said I accepted the result...but that doesn't mean people who care about the workers and the poor shouldn't see it as a tragedy.
None of the "opposition" parties supports anything that will be good for the people the Left fights for. The fact that they pretend this coalition is "centrist" and that a couple of tiny, irrelevant "social democratic" parties will be powerless junior partners in this coalition doesn't change the fact that every measure it will pass will be reactionary and socially brutal...
Chavismo had some problems, but putting the old Venezuelan upper classes back in power isn't going to be the answer to anything. Privatization and austerity can never be the answer. Begging the American oil companies to come back and dominate life again can never be the answer.
And you can assume that Capriles and Co. are going to be cheering for the Republicans in 2016. They would never agree with anything Bernie would support..
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)anything you've suggested.
Time will tell, but for now, the people voted and the people won fair and square.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)If they call a "state of emergency", the U.S. regime(unless Bernie gets in)will defend it.
the same thing was said of the Chavista's, it didn't happen and there's no reason to believe the opposition will do so.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)If the Bolivarians want to win elections, they need to come up with something new. The old plans were cleqrly abject failures. At some point, when you've failed, you have to ty something different. The Bolivarians have wrecked the economy. Whatever good they intended or indeed accomplished is accompanied by that fact. Clearly the people had had enough the BS ideological rhetoric and want some actual results....
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)Because I don't walk in lockstep with what YOU consider a Democrat?
daleanime
(17,796 posts)at all. Although I'm told that will soon be required.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)IOW, I'm my own person who looks at the issues with a critical eye and then make up my mind about how I feel about it.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)it was their own self imposed currency laws that wrecked their economy. It is not complicated - they spent more than they made, using up their foreign reserves in the process. They then had no way to pay for imports vital to their economy.
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)Actually it was the Venz governments restrictions on currency exchange that did the massive damage. On top of rigid price controls during out of sight inflation.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)rationed toilet paper?
Don't slam their vote unless you've walked in their shoes.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Their class did the same kind of thing when Allende was in.
And I'm not slamming anyone's vote...just expressing sadness.
More profits for the rich won't solve anything. They never have.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Eva Golinger?
Telesur?
Maduro?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)and demonstrate that it can run the country competently. Lots of people are fed up with the constant excuses. They've failed so miserably in so many ways that it almost defies imagination.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)What else are they going to do? Venezuela has been approaching rock bottom for awhile now. When you betray the people the way they did, they probably aren't going to vote for you if given the chance regardless of the character of the opposition. "Socialists" who spend so much effort on self enrichment and misdirection while the economy tanks aren't going to stay popular for long.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Norway stored its oil money in funds to be used over time for LT structural investments.
Chavez bought votes by giving goodies around, squandering non-renewable national assets.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Like, they are benefiting right now? When they can't even get toilet paper to wipe their asses with?
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/apr/16/venezuela-economy-black-market-milk-and-toilet-paper
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)check out the charts
West Texas Crude dropped below $40 a barrel today
http://www.oil-price.net/
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)If not worse, since he would have offered the American oil companies massive tax cuts to come back and run things like the old days, which would have caused even greater declines in living standards.
joshcryer
(62,278 posts)Even I said that would be the best outcome for the Chavistas...
The reckoning was going to happen. Too much graft and cronyism will come home to roost eventually.
former9thward
(32,100 posts)No wonder the vote.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)I'd like to know where you're coming from, because a lot of what you said does not make much sense and doesn't jive from what I've heard from a few Venezuelans who were really struggling.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)posters on this board. They've convinced themselves that they know more about Venezuela than people who have actual experience with the country and its problems, and no amount of facts or logic will sway them from their emotional attachment to the so-called 'Bolivarian revoltion'. When you actually ask a question which would require a factual answer the result is generally - crickets.
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)The Venezuelan 1% has been living in Miami for quite some time, lucky is the Western leftist who can demand people in the developing world suffer for their principles.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Venezuela already gave everything of value to the Chinese. My recollection is you were 100% cool with that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)MY recollection is that you've never complained about anybody OTHER than Venezuela making such deals. But then again, you've always been an apologist for the 1%, from what I've seen.
What issues are you actually progressive about, other than maybe LGBTQ rights and choice?
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)This election outcome was about halting Venezuela's plunge into communism and starvation.
I don't equate being "progressive" with wearing Che logowear and making heros out of inept third-world socialists and worse.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And nothing the State Department and Wall Street wants can ever be progressive, given what they've always pushed for in Latin America.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Capitalism is the only progressive force that part of the world has ever seen.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And after the people of Eastern Europe overthrew Stalinism(which did deserve to die, and whose death I will never mourn), nonviolently and entirely on their own, the capitalists who came in brought nothing but ugliness, corporate theft and years of mass unemployment and hardship when they came in and imposed a completely unnecessary "shock therapy". Nobody should end up losing everything they have as a reward for courageously standing up to tyranny. Poland now has a "democratic capitalist" government veering toward's nationalist Catholic/antisemitic dictatorship, Hungary does as well, adding insane hatred of the Roma to the toxic mi and pretty much all capitalists in both countries are cheering this on) and the former DDR is now part of a Germany that is trying to impose permanent right-wing austerity on all European countries(while continuing to punish the people of Greece for debts caused mainly by the greed of Goldman-Sachs. Only the Czech Republic, of all the former Warsaw Pact states, retains any humane, egalitarian values in its governance. By you this is "progress"? Just because they've got stock exchanges and Starbucks?
The ideals of socialism are not the cause what Stalin and his lackeys did. Tyranny can emerge under any economic system or any other ideology or religion (capitalism and nationalism inevitably gave birth to Naziism-Fascism, distorted Christianity mixed with capitalism and nationalism helped fuel the Crusades, the Inquisition and much of the imperial vision that created the Atlantic slave trade and the genocide inflicted on indigenous people in the Americas and the Antipodes) and given the Slavic world's history of turning to supposed "great men", it's quite likely that someone like Stalin would have emerged and committed the crimes Stalin was able to
And Hugo Chavez and his supporters had nothing in common with the Stalinists.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)there was no other way than just pulling the plug. Trying to stay the course would have been disastrous, behold the economic majesty of the former Soviet client states that have tried staying the course.
And if Stalinism is an authoritarian socialist reform model, I wouldn't be so quick to say Chavez et al have nothing in common since they have seemed awfully authoritarian as of late and I don't doubt a totalitarian communist state would be the endgame if the Bolivars get their way.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And the people of Eastern Europe should not have been forced to go from being ruled by the Soviets to being ruled by Wall Street, Goldman Sachs and "the Troika". They should have been given the chance to make a democratic future on their own terms.
All of the ugliness in that region now is the result of the forced austerity. The lesson is, no country should ever again be put through what those countries were subjected to, either before 1989 or afterwards.
The heroic protesters in Leipzig who stood up to the Stasi were NOT fighting for capitalism and inequality.
And it was indefensible for the Clinton Administration take the lead in forcing those countries into "shock therapy". A "Democratic" president is supposed to always defend humane values before short-term gain for the few.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)There was no way forward for those states and their existing institutions without the Soviet Union. The ugliness is primarily ethnic nationalism that has boiled over periodically for the last five hundred years. They're feeling squeezed by Europe and they're feeling squeezed by Russia.
And there has sure been a lot of ink spilled, primarily by socialists on the subject of Soviet Socialism, so I don't think it's a misnomer.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Have been unjustly used to demonize all forms of socialism, and, by extension, any effort to defend humane and compassionate values in any society at all.
There has been a despicable lie spread relentlessly over the past ninety-eight years now...the lie that ANY attempt to create a society run by any means other than greed and egotism, any effort to make a world in which all people are treated with dignity and respect and where no one lives in want and fear MUST end up replicating the Soviet Union under Stalin or Mao's China-that the only way to be free is to let the wealthy become more and more arrogant and demanding, and for everyone else to either just accept their lot or seek to change it solely by becoming a better selfish bastard than the existing selfish bastards.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And, in fact, we can't LET it be that way.
If we do, we're doomed as a planet.
If we are to survive, if life is to be, for the vast majority of the human race, anything on any higher level than eating, sleeping, reproducing and dying, we must keep alive the idea of running life on some sort of democratic cooperative model, because if we let that die, all we have left are "market values", and as the last thirty-four years prove, a world in which short-term gain for the few is the only model will inevitably become more and more brutal, unequal, environmentally unsustainable(capitalism will NEVER stop playing "Climate Chicken" and personally soul-crushing.
Much of the writing is about left critiques of where the USSR went wrong(for myself, it went off the rails when they crushed the Krondstadt Uprising in 1921, a rebellion led by Red Army soldiers and sailor on the military island of Krondstadt, which is in the harbor of St. Petersburg(or Leningrad, as it was called at the time. The soldiers and sailors were fighting to preserve the autonomy of the soviets(the workers councils, which originally operated democratically and actually reflected the will of the workers in those communities, before Lenin reduced them to being powerless "transmission handles" of Party control.)
A lot of us don't want to live in a world where nothing can ever really change for the better. And I don't want my grandchildren to get that world as our legacy to them.
joshcryer
(62,278 posts)...saying that the people who want toilet paper are oligarchs.
http://www.aporrea.org/
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)wipe his/her ass with their hand to support the glorious Bolivarian 'revolution'.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)again just as strongly if things don't improve.
Honestly, it's like a certain segment of the American Left holds the symbolic victory of their ideological views more dearly than the actual quality of life of the people in Venezuela.
I do wonder what will become of Pastor Maldonado's seat at Lotus/Renault. Without the enormous annual Chavista oil money payout there's no way he can keep that ride, though I understand at least some portion of the money for 2016 was already kicked down in view of Lotus's desperate financial straits.
Yeah, that's right; the VEN government is spending many, MANY millions annually to keep the wealthy son of one of St. Hugo's best buddies behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car. Priorities.
elias49
(4,259 posts)Imagine graft? Hahaha.
JI7
(89,281 posts)<Honestly, it's like a certain segment of the American Left holds the symbolic victory of their ideological views more dearly than the actual quality of life of the people in Venezuela.>
some comments about how things will get "ruined" with the investments . with no regard for actual lives of the people who live there and how tough things have been for them.
FBaggins
(26,775 posts)Being trapped under a de-facto dictator willing to kill those who oppose him - and being ruled by corrupt and incompetent officials... is in no sense "freedom" just because you slap a "socialism" label on it.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)The regime's anti-democratic, anti-free speech measures and other collectivist policies were bound to provoke a shift to the right in due time. I was right.
The Chavez-Maduro regime runs counter to a western European social democratic model.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)Just in case you haven't picked up on that already.
When you are not white europeans, you can't have that. When they try to nationalize their natural resouces so they could have middle class and a fair distribution for their people, either CIA comes in and stages coup or election results get invalidated, leading to a civil war, or those democratic socialists get assassinated. Iran in the 50s. S. Korea in the 50s. Guatemala, Chile, Ivory Coast, I could go on and on and on.
And of course, one of the most egregious examples is Bush adminiatration's coup attempt in Venezuela. If Bush was talking about invading Norway (a country that has nationalized its oil reserves), I would accept your premise that it's all about those unruly, dark-skinned socialists in the 3rd world that just can't understand the lofty idealism of white european socialists, and that it's not at all about who's allowed to have what in the imperialist structure where western capitalists are trying to have control over wealth and resources of the people.
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)...........class and a fair distribution for their people, either CIA comes in and stages coup or election results get invalidated, leading to a civil war"
Nonsense, Venz. nationalized their oil way back in the '70's and the US couldn't have cared less.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)US government "couldn't have cared less" when all 56 times it's intervened in Latin American affairs. Very true!
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)....and the US has no problem with it.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)Natural resources. It's about control of it in which region. And it's not necessarily all about resources. It's about thwarting self-determination particularly in areas that US government views as its sphere of influence. Hence, its immediate neighbors, Latin America suffers the most. But then, Hegemonic power concerns every region. Red lines are everywhere. So is war.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)government did not serve the needs of the people.
They will have another chance in the future if the current government does not meet their needs.
This is a triumph of Democracy and the people.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)Every time he won fairly, they didn't call it the triumph of democracy and people. Rather, they went so far as to stage military coup to illegally overthrow Chavez.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)I respect their choice.
If they change their mind in a future election, that is their choice, which I respect.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)even though he won fair and square every time? Just curious.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Venezuelans decided Chavez's successor did not meet their needs. My opinion of him is irrelevant.
Venezuelans elected a government that falls more in line with free market and Capitalist ideas. My opinion of them is irrelevant.
Americans elect republicans that I think are scum. I respect our right, as citizens, to make decisions at the ballot box that do not meet my approval.
I think being overly faithful to any individual politician is dangerous. Chavez enjoyed a cult of personality. His successor, however, did not gain the trust or worship of the people of Venezuela. His kind of Charisma is a hard act to follow. His successor's actions did not meet the expectations of followers.
In future elections, Venezuelans have the opportunity to decide if their new government will meet their expectations. I respect their right to make that choice.
You nailed it.
Perhaps the only thing I might wanna add to your point is the role of over-the-top right-wing corporate media propaganda in Venezuela. It's a vicious propaganda machine, and they have had that media environment for a long time.
Along with the incessant US covert ops and sanctions shenanigans waged against the people of Venezuela, they've been holding on to the people' government for quite some time, and remarkably so.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)media propaganda in Venezuela"? Links, please.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Rat bastards.
File under "Make the Economy Scream".
brooklynite
(94,803 posts)...because it's worked so well for the Sanders people.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)In the OP itself, I said I accepted the result. A person can accept a tragedy and still mourn it.
We both know capitalism has nothing to offer the poor anywhere in the world. The story of "microcredit" i.e., micro usury) proves that.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It would have been just as bad if Venezuela had had a government that bowed and scraped to the global elite.
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)The shortage of consumer goods and rampant inflation are not recent problems. The drop in oil prices is.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they were in dire straits even with high oil prices. It is not complicated - they spent more than they made and couldn't pay their bills. Toss in corruption and incompetence and you see the results.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)but the fact of the matter is the "right people" only have themselves to blame for the ouster...
PufPuf23
(8,843 posts)I have followed the Venezuelanalysis website for over a decade for more detail than generally available in US media regards Venezuela. The site has been favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution and to a Social Democracy in Venezuela.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news
About venezuelanalysis.com
Venezuelanalysis.com is an independent website produced by individuals who are dedicated to disseminating news and analysis about the current political situation in Venezuela.
The site's aim is to provide on-going news about developments in Venezuela, as well as to contextualize this news with in-depth analysis and background information. The site is targeted towards activists, academics, journalists, intellectuals, policy makers from different countries, and the general public.
Venezuelanalysis.com is a project of Venezuela Analysis, Inc., which is registered as a non-profit organization in New York State and of the Fundación para la Justicia Económica Global, which is a foundation that is registered in Caracas, Venezuela.
cut
While the site publishes opinion articles, it also aims for accuracy in the news and facts presented in all articles. Our goal is to be the primary resource for information and analysis on Venezuela in the English language.
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)The set up of Venezuelanalysis.com was also aided by the Venezuelan government.
According to Brian Nelson, author of The Silence and the Scorpion, Venezuelanalysis.com performs "damage control" for the Venezuelan government and "tried to discredit virtually every independent human rights study" while Hugo Chávez was in office as part of "an integral part of Venezuelas propaganda complex", according to Venezuelan government sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelanalysis.com
PufPuf23
(8,843 posts)Venezuelanalysis has survived Chavez. The issues are the same.
A Social Democracy is still probably better for Venezuela and the people of Venezuela than a transnational corporate economy.
I noted that the site is favorable to the Bolivarian Revolution.
I did not know about Wilpert. That said there is more depth and breadth of reportage on Venezuela on Venezuelanalysis than one will experience of Fox, CNN, MSNBC, WAPO, NYT, network TV, WSJ, etc.
The sin of Venezuela is that it is the richest oil patch in the western hemisphere.
Note that The Silence and the Scorpion by Brian Nelson is a Chavez hit piece comparable to what would be said on Fox News regards Venezuela.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Both led to the cheapening of oil in Venezuela that led to the inevitable collapse of the economy and when people are desperate, they throw the current leaders out of office no matter what they stand for.
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)...that just made it worse.
Their murder rate (2nd in the world) and inflation rate (highest in the world) have been out of control for years due to government mismanagement (thru rigid price and currency controls) and corruption.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)This oil glut isn't over either, since Venezuela wasn't the target. The target, was Putin, Canadian oil shale and alternative energy advances like the Electric Car. The rich are not going to diversify Venezuela's economy.
You win some elections and lose some. That is democracy. Maduro has had a run of bad luck no leader could survive, but the next government won't either.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)did nothing to change that.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Rich people that don't want any regulation of the economy or a safetynet for the poor and don't want to pay taxes.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Venezuela before trying to sound off on subjects that you obviously know nothing about.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)There is an old saying... never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
Stupidity and dogma kills as many people or more than outright evil. And I'm not convinced he ISN'T an evil greedy bully. He certainly loves arresting his political opponents, and forcing compliance form his judiciary. And Chavez's family managed to become VERY wealthy, despite supposed humble beginnings and a commitment to socialism. As in most things, I suspect power became more important than the people. When you are never help accountable by anyone, you begin to consider yourself accountable to no one. That applies here, IMO.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)MrWendel
(1,881 posts)from someone who has relatives in Venezuela, ITS PARTY TIME down there. From every single one and every person they know. Yep back to chains.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We can assume none of the token pretend to be lefty parties in MUD will do anything to stop that. They're happy because the rich will stop hoarding the damn toilet paper now.
There's no reason to think this won't be just as miserable as Nicaragua after the Sandinistas were voted out in 1990 and all the gains were taken away. And it's bullshit to act like this election is legitimate but every election the left won was a sham.
MrWendel
(1,881 posts)17 years of a socialist government. Not everyone around the world wants one. My Aunts, Uncles and cousins are excited with the results
rpannier
(24,345 posts)Their gross mismanagement of the country for the past 4 years became untenable for many in Venezuela
They'll need to get their act together, find someone who can actually govern and try again
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Just that they were the only government Venezuela ever had that cared about and empowered the workers and the poor(we both know Capriles doesn't, being a capitalist), and that they never deserved to be treated as an illegitimate government.
Can you understand why some of us feel squeamish every time supposed "liberals" in the U.S. celebrate a right-wing result in Latin America? Some of the people gloating about this also defended the Contra War in Nicaragua and the coercced victory of the reactionaries there in 1990, and then defended the HRC-backed coup in Honduras and the U.S. backed right-wing return to power in Haiti.
rpannier
(24,345 posts)It would have been one thing for them to lose, but the conservatives not have their super-majority
The super majority is my biggest worry
It's something I think Venezuelans regret
malaise
(269,225 posts)The 1% simply locked shop - and nearly starved the population on behalf of the 'special interests'. I lived through that in the late 70s and 1980 in Jamaica.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)For those here who don't remember or were too young to live through the era, the pressure in Jamaica from the 1% there and in the U.S.(abetted, for some reason, by the Carter Administration) led to the PNP, the "left" government of the day, being defeated, then feeling obligated to abandon all left policies(other than a few trivial boutique liberal figleafs)in the hopes of being allowed to win another election.
It also led to Bob Marley being shot and wounded and feeling compelled to live out the rest of his life in exile in the UK.
Tragic times for your homeland, and I hope someday it may finally recover from all that.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It seems to me that to have any credibility, there has to be some point at which abject failure is grounds for electoral loss.
When is that? Or is loyatly to ideology more important that the actual facts?
It reminds me of Republicans doggedly sticking to their plans to cut taxes and deregulate, deespite decades of evidence that it DOES NOT WORK.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)There was no excuse for them to align with the economic royalists around Capriles in the MUD, and to endorse the right-wing narrative that the PSUV not a "legitimate government". There was never any chance of Venezuela turning into the DDR of South America, for Goddess' sakes.
Also, it's probably that nothing authoritarian would ever have happened under Chavismo if the "opposition" hadn't keep trying to overthrow Chavez over and over again. There was never any justification at any time for anti-Chavez coup attempts, like the one in which Capriles himself scaled the walls of the Cuban Embassy looking for Bolivarians to kidnap(and, if he had succeeded in kidnapping, probably had executed).
Why couldn't they have just been a "loyal opposition"? Why did they ever have to start the orchestrated melodrama in the streets? The acceptance of defeat by the PSUV proves that none of that was ever needed, just as the acceptance of defeat by the Sandinistas in the 1990 elections proves that the entire Contra War and the thousands of innocent lives it took should never have happened at all.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I kind of doubt it. In the situation Venezuela is in, first you have to stop the bleeding.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)(btw, I know you back the anti-Chavistas, but they definitely need a better acronym than that). An outcome like that would have been useful.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Just look over yonder - where President of Country went to jail and bankers too;
and the people won the case of claims to protect their houses and mortgages.
Oh yeah - by the way - I'm about to kick Goldman Sachs's arse...
here in good ole America
a la izquierda
(11,798 posts)Politics there are a hell of a lot easier to understand than the train wreck that is Venezuela.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Venezuela is going through the worst economic, social and cultural crisis ever recorded, Adrian says, explaining that her agenda includes giving visibility to the problems that the Venezuelan LGBT community systematically faces. We have to talk about the rights of couples and families, about the gender identity Act, about the mutilation of intersex children, and about discrimination, which includes hate crimes, bullying, workplace harassment, and access to housing and healthcare.
Before becoming a candidate, Adrian had already been leading the fight towards civil rights for the LGBT community. In 2014, she introduced a project for a marriage equality act that was never addressed. In the past 17 years the topic of LGBT rights was never seriously discussed, she says. Adrian, who has not been able to attain legal recognition as female under Venezuelan law, says that an important number of representatives from her political party, Voluntad Popular, and across the opposition coalition are already aware of her proposals, and that it is just a matter of time before the issues finally reach national debate.
Too bad she's a right-wing stooge like Caitlyn.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)She will soon learn that nobody who supports "market values" in Venezuela gives a damn about LGBTQ people. Why would they, when capitalists have no personal experience of oppression?
EX500rider
(10,881 posts)You serious?
Voluntad Popular
Popular Will (Spanish: Voluntad Popular, or VP) is a left-leaning to centrist member party of the Socialist International in Venezuela, founded by Leopoldo López Mendoza, who serves as its National Coordinator.
The party was formed in reaction to alleged infringements of individual freedom and human rights on the part of the socialist government of the late Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and his successor, Nicolas Maduro. The party brings together Venezuelans of various backgrounds who consider chavismo oppressive and authoritarian. Popular Will identifies itself as a pluralist and democratic movement that is committed to progress, which it defines as the realization of the social, economic, political, and human rights of every Venezuelan.
The partys fundamental pillars are progress, democracy, and social action. The party was admitted into the Socialist International in December 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Will
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)that's the whole point of the OP.
enid602
(8,659 posts)Well, hopefully members of the opposition will no longer be harassed, jailed or murdered. I'm thinking there's probably a high rise luxury condo somewhere in Miami with Maduro's name on it.