Idiots.

Don't they have real shit to work on?

I hope so.

who don't make craft cheeses made the case for this...

it's not enough that they win, everyone else has to lose as well.

While I am no fan of huge corporations, these "competitors" are so small they aren't even be a rounding error a large corporation's bottom line. Trust me, large cheese making corporations like Kraft don't care about these guys because they are absolutely threat, no competition. These little guys aren't worth the time or money to go after.

Not everything is some kind of corporate conspiracy. These are not new regulations. Whether it is a truly health concern or not, using unpasteurized raw milk to make cheese is going to going to ring some alarm bells all by itself. I drank raw milk right out of the cow until I was eight or so, but I wouldn't eat that cheese. And if you saw a milking operation, either automated or manual, you wouldn't either - there is just too much chance of contamination.

I seem to be in good company

You might want to read this:

From a post from NickB79 below

I grew up drinking raw milk as a kid on our farm, and went to college to get a degree in biochemistry. I'm currently a quality control tech in a dairy plant, responsible for running a battery of tests on incoming raw milk before pasteurization and culturing, and finished cultured products before shipping off to grocery stores.

I will not drink raw milk. I will not give it to my daughter. End of story.

The only way I could do so is if it came from a cow or goat I raised on my own property and milked myself (and I have given this serious thought, as I already have the makings of a micro-farm on my 1.5 acres as is).

Through modern testing nobody will be made sick...

... and heaven knows how many have died of food borne illnesses. I agree that testing can prevent most of these. However, even with the current inspection processes there have been outbreaks. Is this cheese certified safe by federal inspectors? One would think that no one would be going after these guys if that were the case.

And the fed changed the reg based on nothing....no outbreak, no increase, just Kraft/Sargento/etc....

I'm certainly not an expert - I only know what I have learned from watch milking operations as a boy. But this guy seem to be an expert, read what he says:

From a post from NickB79 below

I grew up drinking raw milk as a kid on our farm, and went to college to get a degree in biochemistry. I'm currently a quality control tech in a dairy plant, responsible for running a battery of tests on incoming raw milk before pasteurization and culturing, and finished cultured products before shipping off to grocery stores.

I will not drink raw milk. I will not give it to my daughter. End of story.

The only way I could do so is if it came from a cow or goat I raised on my own property and milked myself (and I have given this serious thought, as I already have the makings of a micro-farm on my 1.5 acres as is).

I don't put too much stock in the conspiracy take on the story, but there's no question that there's an unhealthy alliance between large dairy producers, the FDA, and some state regulators. Make no mistake the big dairy producers are very concerned about raw milk products. It's currently a growth industry in the states that allow it.

The risk has been grossly overstated. If people saw the production of all kinds of food products they might not want to eat them. That's nothing more than an irrational argument. The question is what is the actual risk. Millions of people are already consuming raw milk products and very few are getting sick. Keep in mind also that a large portion of the people who are getting sick are from unregulated production. Even if you include those numbers and extrapolate over a larger population you find that all sorts of harmless products like lunch meats and raw spinach carry a greater risk. When you consider what would happen if all raw milk production were regulated the risk rivals pasteurized milk.

And he wouldn't drink raw milk or cheese made from it.

From a post from NickB79 below

I grew up drinking raw milk as a kid on our farm, and went to college to get a degree in biochemistry. I'm currently a quality control tech in a dairy plant, responsible for running a battery of tests on incoming raw milk before pasteurization and culturing, and finished cultured products before shipping off to grocery stores.

I will not drink raw milk. I will not give it to my daughter. End of story.

The only way I could do so is if it came from a cow or goat I raised on my own property and milked myself (and I have given this serious thought, as I already have the makings of a micro-farm on my 1.5 acres as is).

What I do put stock in is data that shows what the actual risk is. The reality is that there have been exactly zero deaths associated with drinking raw milk in the 40 some odd years that the CDC has been collecting data on the subject and exactly two deaths associated with eating cheese from raw milk, both of which came from unregulated bathtub cheese operations. Furthermore, pasteurized milk is not without risk. Over the same time period there's been over 70 deaths recorded from pasteurized dairy products, all of which were regulated. So the opinion of one person who claims to have some education in biochemistry and by their own admittance works for the large scale dairy industry isn't really the "end of the story".

Now certainly raw milk only represents about 3-5% of the market and one might be able to make a case that raw milk has more risk than pasteurized milk, but so what? For one thing you're talking about a cooked product vs an uncooked product, so they really aren't the same thing and shouldn't be compared directly. Canned spinach is safer than buying raw spinach as well. For another thing, from a reasoned point of view that risk should be put into context. What is the risk compared to other other food products like lunch meat, leafy vegetables, or vine fruits? I think someone would have a hard time claiming it was higher.

If you really want to reduce your food risk, buy all of your food canned, cook it in a pressure cooker, and throw away all your leftovers. The US already has one of the safest food supplies in the world, but there's always room for improvement. Personally I eat raw oysters and sushi and occassionally enjoy dairy made from raw milk. I don't always cook my egg yolks all the way through either and I've been known to cook pork only to 140F. Call me crazy.

.... and certainly seem to have looked into the subject far more than I. However, I also share your concerns about putting too much stock in the expertise claimed by anonymous posters. No offense, but that includes you.

I long ago came to the realization that I cannot be an expert on everything, far from it. So for many things in my life I put my trust in established experts in their particular fields. Based on my personal experience, I would no longer drink raw milk or eat cheese made from it. I also trust the FDA to make the best decision possible as to whether those product should be marketed in this country.

You have your opinion, and I have mine, however uninformed it may be.

Never put too much stock in your own bullshit either. I've been wrong before and will be again.

That's why people need to do their own research and make up their own minds. Not everything people tell you to be worried about is a real concern and some things which should be a real concern aren't.

the beer business. 25 years ago Budwieser would poo-poo micro breweries...now their market share is half. Anyone who doesn't think big cheese would lobby and fight for one tenth of one percent of market share doesn't understand what big business does.

any is horrific and terrifying.

As demonstrated by the ice cream recall last spring. And that wasn't even raw milk.

We have too many greedy assholes, and too many tools for those assholes to walk away from their liabilities.

Pasteurized commercial dairy product recall you refer to...pasteurized will not save you from mishandled food...perhaps modern testing required at raw milk facilities would have prevented the ice cream killers. It is the ice cream giant that walked away from their responsibilities and the 2 cantelope killer brothers in Colorado who are serving hard time....the ice cream victims are just as dead.

They were using the same trucks to transport milk before and after pasteurization, without cleaning the trucks.

What it demonstrates is industry is too lax and too corrupt to be trusted, en masse, with making raw milk products. They will cut corners stupidly (hey, we'll save a few bucks if we use the same trucks!), and then not face any significant penalty when their stupidity causes harm.

Regulation? They were already violating regulations by using the same trucks.

Testing? The milk passed. It was tested when it came out of the pasteurizer.

As a result, I really don't think we can trust industry with raw milk products. "Boutique" situations are probably OK, because they will actually face consequences. Industry will walk away from the harm they cause.

I will coose for me. I don't believe there is any increased incidence of food borne illness from these products than there has ever been. I wouldn't serve them to at risk communities, but I should be able to get these 1000 year proven products.

Food-bore illness. Wiped out entire families.

If industry actually followed regulations and would be held accountable when they fail, then they could be trusted with it. Industry isn't.

So leave it as an option for small producers who will follow regulations and can be held accountable, and let them supply you with that option.

What about last year when these products were fine?

There is inherent danger in eating. Food borne illness from lettuce a snake crawled through in the field is a risk....maybe we should require all lettuce be cooked to 165 degrees before it can be sold?

It isn't true, nor is it what I said.

These products can be dangerous if they are not handled properly throughout the supply chain. And industrial scale manufacturers have demonstrated they will fail to properly handle these products. They have injured and killed significant numbers of people this year.

Meanwhile, smaller operations do handle them properly throughout the supply chain. They have demonstrated that they can be trusted. So let them continue to operate.

We can, and do, have different rules for small producers and industrial producers.

Pasteurized milk lends itself well to large scale production simply due to the nature of a cooked product stored in antiseptic packaging. Raw milk contains live cultures which include spoilage bacteria and has a much shorter shelf life. So unless technology progresses to the point to which raw milk can be safely distributed over large areas, it will forever remain a product only suited to small scale local production and local distribution.

Another thing is the food supply in the US is extremely safe, which includes industrial dairy production. So will food suppliers be found negligent and kill people in the future? Sure, but most won't, and the chances of that happening to you are extremely remote.

from a place I can drive 3 minutes to look over the cows (or more likely, run by there in the morning and wave).

They are right there.

But the guys who used the same trucks to carry raw milk and pasteurized milk when making ice cream did walk away from their liability (more or less).

In "wave my magic wand and make it so" land, small producers could use raw milk (with labeling). Industrial scale would not be allowed to use raw milk.

Frankly, legislation isn't going to get in the way of rural cheesemaking anyway, so I'm not about to get worried about it.

Folks with access to these "illicit" products are going to go on enjoying them until they get rounded up like they are drug dealers and hauled to Federal prison.

Period. Not worth the risk. As long as I know, I can decide for myself. I'm all for labeling requirements, including labeling for GMO ingredients. I eat GMO stuff, though. I don't care if it's labeled, because that doesn't matter to me. I won't eat anything made with raw milk, though. I'm not worried about those strains of E. coli. I worry about listeria and other harmful microorganisms. It's easier just to avoid the stuff.

If you look at the outbreaks associated with raw milk, most of them come from unregulated production. If the FDA and the states regulated raw milk production the same way western Europe does, the risk would be little different than cooked milk, which itself is not without risk.

There's a good reason why cheese made from unpasteurized milk wins awards. A great line from the movie, Munich, goes something like this...

"I'm going to send you some cheese. It's not made from pasteurized milk so it doesn't taste like shit."

raw milk products. I expect labeling, too.

I'm OK with the cheeses I enjoy, too, and I do enjoy cheese.

"I'm going to send you some cheese. It's made from pasteurized milk so you don't have to worry about the shit in it.

There is a reason milk is pasteurized; otherwise you could buy raw milk at any grocery store.

Milk is pasteurized because over 100 years ago rapid urbanization had dairy cows that provided milk to urban areas living in deplorable unregulated conditions eating substandard diets and milk was the staple fed to weaned babies. Both of those conditions are no longer applicable today.

In many countries you can buy raw milk just as readily as cooked milk from any grocery store. The reason you can't here is because the FDA and various states have regulated it virtually out of business, mostly due to the economic interests of large milk producers. Pasteurized milk has more shit in it because udders don't have to be as clean since the shit (along with the milk) is cooked, making it cheaper to produce and since it's been cooked the shelf life is increased due to antiseptic packaging and further reduces costs because milk can be mass produced from more centralized locations. So in the event of the eventual problem with pathogen counts you sicken thousands instead of a few dozen or a handful.

However, most don't which creates their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

Do you know how to make cheese?

Not in the nuts and bolts sense of raising the goats, sheep or cows and getting the milk, but how to produce, age and finish cheese?

The risk is tiny, particularly if you know the source, and Jasper Hill is just down the road from me. What they've achieved is amazing.

My favorite is actually the von Trapp's Oma. It is so delicious.

This article has a lot about the safety of these raw milk cheeses.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/18/jasper-hill-cheese-honored/19251889/

You can get medium hardness aged cheese here in Texas if you know where to look.

The reason why people get sick in the US from cheese made from raw milk is because the FDA refuses to regulate it, so you get people making it in bathtubs. Properly regulated raw milk cheese is perfectly safe.

Jasper Hill and others do mail order and Williams Sonoma and many others do as well.

http://www.jasperhillfarm.com/cheeses

The FDA has intrastate restrictions on the export of cheeses made from raw milk. Retailers can only ship cheese made from raw milk out of state if it's been aged longer than 60 days minimum. Certain types of cheeses require a minimum age of several months.

of the folks worrying about this actually understand how to make cheese.

I understand how to make cheese, and I understand how to can. People freak out over these things, but have no actual idea of how to actually do it.

If they had the faintest idea of how to make cheese, they would understand that it is something that takes long enough if you are making hard cheese that it is apparent if there is an issue, and with soft cheese that the rendering also makes it obvious.

It's a product of not knowing how on earth to do anything anymore.

The drive to/from the store is more likely to get me killed/injuried than anything I eat.

Stoking fear about the "danger" of raw milk serves the interests of large milk producers. The day of the small dairy producer is long gone.

I grew up drinking raw milk as a kid on our farm, and went to college to get a degree in biochemistry. I'm currently a quality control tech in a dairy plant, responsible for running a battery of tests on incoming raw milk before pasteurization and culturing, and finished cultured products before shipping off to grocery stores.

I will not drink raw milk. I will not give it to my daughter. End of story.

The only way I could do so is if it came from a cow or goat I raised on my own property and milked myself (and I have given this serious thought, as I already have the makings of a micro-farm on my 1.5 acres as is).

is probably the best milk in the universe. You have less lactose, more protein and the fantastic amino acids that goats milk provides.

You really should think about getting a herd of pretty Nubians if you are in the South, or up North Saanen will outproduce anything under the sun. Sweetest, greediest things you will ever love, and they can eat vegetation better than any lawnmower .

floppy eared goats. I love their pretty, horizontal pupil-ed eyes



How could you not love that face?



Pleasant dispositions, too.

as well as proscuitto, coppa, lonzino, and salm d'la duja which was cured, but still raw. Many of the salumi used only salt and no nitrite, but someone knew what they were doing because we made hundreds of pounds of the stuff a year and no on got botulsim. I figure I have been exposed to lysteria a lot. I suspect we all built up an immunity.

You and I have survived.

Why does everybody that is so terrified of this find it unthinkable?

I did not know.

Raw milk cheese is divine, and yes, I am more than happy to "take my life in my own hands" and eat raw milk cheese, and a steak that has had the breath knocked out of it (provided I know where either came from).

If you know who is supplying the dairy and who is supplying the beef, it is an outstanding experience. I like my steak Black and Bleu.

You cannot regulate delicious. Apparently you can attempt to enforce lack of it - in fear that someone, somewhere might be eating something more fantastic than you are currently.

...and lay awake at night worrying about a pathogen that's going to kill them that is far more likely to come from their own kitchen as any commercial operation.

Meanwhile Europeans are enjoying raw milk which is even available from roadside vending machines.

We won't be able to buy raw eggs in shells...we will just be allowed to eat pasteurized egg product. In case, you know, someone makes real egg nogg or mayo or *gasp* sunny-side up. Meat will be pre-cooked only (well done of course). Can't trust anyone to cook a steak anymore. Anything raw like lettuce or spinach will have to be hydroponic, radiated and soaked in bleach before sale is allowed. Anyone caught with contraband food will be sentenced to a minimum 3 years (got to keep that prison profit going now that pot is legal).

Sending people to jail because they DARED to make cheese the way it has always been made.

Send folks to jail because they know their way around canning equipment.

Pfft.

If the food industry has its way, it'll end in people being sent to jail for daring to sow their own saved seeds.

1984 shouldn't be a manual, it should be a warning.