There was no harm intended, obviously. The President should just place a phone call to PM Tusk and offer an apology.

Call the Polish PM, say "yeah, sorry 'bout that" and move on.

The right wing will scream about it and use it as "proof" that Obama both a) hates Polish people and b) is a moron, but no one cares what they think.

Poland's President Bronislaw Komorowski said Wednesday he had written a personal letter to President Barack Obama urging him to do more to correct the record after Obama referred to "a Polish death camp" in a White House ceremony on Tuesday.

"I hope we will jointly act to make up for this unfortunate mistake. I believe that every error, every mistake can be corrected if it is given adequate consideration," Komorowski said in remarks posted on his official website.

Komorowski stopped well short of explicitly demanding an apology from Obama, who used the phrase Tuesday as he honored World War II Polish resistance hero Jan Karski with a posthumous Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian American honor. Poland's foreign minister had demanded a full apology late Tuesday. But Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk made no reference to an apology on Wednesday even as he blasted Obama's remark.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/polish-president-writes-obama-death-camp-gaffe/story?id=16462942#.T8a9VsWwWXI

... pretty much requires a personal reply.

It isn't as if it costs anything to apologize.

Empathy is a positive character trait.

Grow-up already.

What's wrong with an apology over an issue that even the offended party claims is an innocent misspeak? It's not like it would hurt the President, probably just the opposite.

.. and these people are wounded by this nonsense?

Meh.

Screw 'em.

Most people didn't even notice, or they at least understood what the President meant. The only ones making an issue are the right-wing Polish government, which is also heavily Catholic. I'm betting they got marching orders from the Vatican. It's a chance to smear the President here, given the birth control bullshit. And, it's a distraction from the scandals going on in Rome, both here and in the heavily Catholic Poland.

It dies if he makes a public apology.

"Smelling a rat" doesn't change the fact that he owes the rat an apology.

How so?

It's you that created the wild fantasy that this is somehow an artificial issue ginned up by the pope.

The President screwed up and should apologize (to the people he actually insulted). It takes less effort than you've put into the spin.

""Smelling a rat" doesn't change the fact that he owes the rat an apology." When I referred to the "rat", I was referring to the Pope. And, it IS an artificial issue, regardless of who ginned it up.

I don't need to accept your description of who the "rat" is. Nor is it important... He owes the people he insulted an apology. The fact that it wasn't an intentional slight should make this a very easy apology to deliver. It isn't an "artificial" issue, it's just a very small one (unless he fails to correct it and thus removes the "unintentional" nature of it).

Wow. So, then you are commenting about something I didn't say.

BTW, if you bothered to read the rest of this thread, I already said the President should apologize.

Though apologising is probably good, since someone should have seen the potential for misunderstanding. "Polski konclager" (Polish concentration camp) is quite different to "Konclager w Polsce" (c. camp in Poland) and MUCH different to "Konclager w zajmowanym Polsce" (c.c. in occuped Poland)

Ratzinger's toadies, with the help of our "liberal" media, have turned a minor misspeak into an international incident. I think most people understood what the President was saying, given that he was giving a medal to a member of the Polish Underground.

I am really curious as to what the Polish people think about all of this. I haven't seen anything about it.

As if the Poles can't be sensitive about WWII on their own?

The German Pope is prodding the once-conquered Poles to make the American President put the blame back on Germany. It makes perfect sense.

To say that he's being insensitive about WW2 is what is "pretty ridiculous". Poland is heavily Catholic and heavily conservative. The government has strong ties to the Vatican. It has been that way since the end of the Cold War, where the Vatican was heavily involved in the Solidarity movement. To suggest that the Vatican pushed the Polish government into ginning up a controversy over this is not in the least bit "ridiculous".

Show me one bit of evidence that this has anything to do with the Vatican. You're trying to argue that because Poland is a Catholic country that the hidden hand of the Vatican is present here. There isn't one bit of evidence pointing in that direction.

I don't think the president meant any harm. I just think he misspoke. But it's not uncommon to apologize when you misspeak.

It seems a "those people are all alike and stick together" stereotype is what you're up against. That's sad and demonstrably not true --

Incoming US President Barack Obama has won back a significant proportion of the Catholic vote previously lost to George Bush, electoral analysts say.

The International Herald Tribune quoted several religious experts saying that the swing in the Catholic vote in this year's election may be one of the more significant political developments, despite the emphasis that Democrats have put on attracting evangelical voters.

Although Kerry is Catholic, he won only 47 percent of Catholic voters, while Bush drew 52 percent. That represented a reversal from 2000 when Gore won 50 percent of Catholics and Bush won 47 percent.

On Tuesday, Catholics, who accounted for about a quarter of the electorate, supported Obama, at 54 percent, over McCain, at 45 percent.

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=9996

It's true that saying "Polish concentration camp" (translated as "polski konclager&quot could be misunderstood. But, given the context was a medal award, anyone wanting to mis-construe the meaning would have to work quite hard to do it for reasons I hope are obvious (it reads exactly the same in Polish as in English, same context-sensitivities). So where is the faux outrage coming from, if not from the Vatican?

It's blatantly obvious what the President meant. And, it sure as hell isn't worth all the frothing and hand-wringing from the Polish PM. The White House already said that the President misspoke. Yet, it's not good enough. Why is that?

is not evidence. It was a misunderstanding at best, rightwingers there and here naturally will jump all over it, they don't need the Pope and never have.

So, while you're free to keep posting a totally unsubstantiated and illogical opinion, don't be surprised if people ask you for something, anything to explain why you keep so.

I never insinuated any such thing. It's pure speculation. I fully admit it. Why do you think I said, "I'm betting"???? Just trying to find an explanation why the Polish PM insists on being such a dick over this.

Even though they're rightwingers. In fact, diplomacy would forbid it. Yet they did. There aren't many possible explanations for their behavior.

that Obama's meaning was clear. His words did leave an opening for them and the best way to shut them up is for him to apologize, not for what he meant, but for how he worded it.

...many who turned over their Jewish neighbors to the Nazi and participated in their own anti-semetism. They stood aside as the Warsaw Ghetto existed for years right under their nose and did little to help the suffering inside. While the President messed up on his history and will probably appologize, the Polish government and its people have never come to grips with their own complicity with the Nazis during war...

Last edited Thu May 31, 2012, 11:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Those who are still waiting... aren't listening.

And I say that as a descendant of polish jews.

Just one of the more recent:

I'm all for condemning until the end of time those who helped the Nazis in the countries they occupied. But we must not forget those who risked their lives to hide Jews, to make false papers for Jews, or helped smuggle them out. Those are the acts recognized as righteous by Yad Vashem, and the latter admits that they've recognized only a fraction of the heroes who helped save Jewish lives during the war. Poland is first among nations in the war for the number of officially recognized heroes by Yad Vashem, with well over 6,000 individuals honored. The Netherlands and France were second and third among the nations in the number of the formally recognized. The heroes and their descendants also factor in and that's why blanket statements are inappropriate.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp

I have always had a very hard time believing that the Polish people did not know about this. I think they knew and many really didn't care what happened to the Jews. Some did, and were very brave. But enough already. Obama did enough.

This gets me angry. The people of Poland were often complicit in the deaths of their neighbors. And that is ignored, just as the fact that Coco Chanel was a Nazi sympathizer and, worse, collaborator. Chanel should have been driven out of business.

I grew up hearing stories from my grandmother of the progroms in her stetl about 60 miles from Warsaw. These weren't Nazis...this was around 1900 and she lived the rest of her 80 years with the torment of Polish "police" officers coming into her village, stealing, raping and destroying. Or there's the collection of letters I have from her brothers who remained in an independent Poland following WW1 who were constantly harassed by local authorities and where unsolved murders were just a way of life. In the 70s my parents went back to the town to see if there were any family members remaining. Of a population that was once over 25,000 Jews, only 3 remained. The Nazi didn't act alone and the attempts to make the Polish appear as the "saviors" of the Jews is an insult to the nearly 2,000,000 who died in Poland alone. My grandmother never heard an appology from the Polish government in her lifetime...nor an answer to whatever happened to her brothers.

Such hatred, so irrational. So tragic, all of it.

POLES. The Nazi destroyed, on purpose, the Polish Gentile intellectual and middle class. ON PURPOSE. Poles were also considered subhuman, just not quite as bad as Jews. They were to be the Reich's slaves, given just enough schooling to function as slaves to their Nazi Overlords. Their Aryan looking children were taken away and given to Nazi families. They were imprisoned and butchered horribly. Yes, many Poles turned over neighbors, and also murdered Jews after the war. Many Poles have been and still are quite anti-semitic. That does NOT negate what was done to them during the War.

The Poles knew about the camps. How could they not? They knew and they told.

Many Poles also saved many Jews. To date, 6,266 Poles have been awarded the title of Righteous among the Nations by the State of Israel—more than any other nation. (wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Righteous_among_the_Nations


Polish Jews saved Polish Jews. The Bielski Partisans are the most famous, but there were many more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_partisans#Notable_partisan_groups

But many were not, and to admit that does not take away the bravery of the others. It seems as though this situation is being used to try to make believe all Poles were totally innocent in WWII, and they were obviously not. How do you ignore the trains and the camps? You cannot. You know. You just don't want to know.

The outrage here is that some few are trying to pretend that most or almost all Poles (and thus the nation as a whole) were complicit.

That isn't anywhere near to the same zip code as reality.

- left or right. This is a very tender and sensitive issue for Polish people and a statement from any U.S. President is always heard around the world. It has the ability to misconstrue and - as such - should warrant a personal apology.

Many would be upset if Anderson Prison was called a "Union Civil War Prison" since Union soldiers were kept there. Not an identical comparison but similar.

It's not quite the same as the death camps, since those were constructed by the Germans and Abu Ghraib was already there when the Americans took it over, but other than that it's an apt comparison (note, I am not at all trying to equate the death factories with Abu Ghraib. They aren't even in the same galaxy, let alone ballpark).

The death camps were instruments of German policy located in occupied Poland. Abu Ghraib was an instrument of American policy located in Iraq. Neither facilities were 'Polish' or 'Iraqi.'

I don't think the president meant to offend or muddy the historical waters. I think he simply misspoke, which is a pretty common thing for anybody to do, especially when every word you say in public is recorded and analyzed.

But this is a sensitive enough subject that I think the president needs to call Tusk and personally apologize. Once he does that, it's fair to expect everybody to move on.

Auschwitz-Birkenau is in Poland. He was historically correct but grammatically inartful.

There is no doubt that Poles suffered mightily under the Nazis, but there is also no doubt that the Poles were willing participants in pointing out the Jews to their Nazi occupiers as well. They knew full well what was going on in those camps and did nothing about it. Spare me your outrage at a grammatically poor sentence sixty-seven years later.

No-one in their right mind thinks the Poles ran the death camps. The Polish PM can huff and puff as much as he likes, but what the President said was geographically correct.

And 'geographically correct' doesn't cut it. The Germans ran Poland when the Holocaust was carried out. Like I said above, it's not that different from calling Abu Ghraib an 'Iraqi prison.' That may be geographically correct, but it matters less where the facility was than whose policy was carried out there. And the Holocaust was 100 percent German policy.

Yes, Poland was an anti-Semitic country and Poles were known to seize Jewish property (often after being deprived of their own property by the Germans) and sometimes gave up Jews to the Germans. But there were Poles who hid Jews as well.

The penalty for resisting German policy in any way, shape, or form was death. Millions of gentile Poles were killed during the war, often at random. And how exactly was a people under a brutal occupation regime supposed to 'do something' about the death camps? It was hard enough to stay alive even if you weren't resisting.

Far more Poles turned Jews over than hid them, and many seized on the arrival of the Nazis as a way to rid themselves of the Jews permanently.

As I stated previously Obama's wording was inartful, but the camp is in Poland, hence 'Polish Death Camp' as opposed to Drancy as the French Concentration Camp or Mauthausen in Austria, or Theresienstadt in Czechoslovakia...

I agree that "the Nazi death camp in Poland" would have passed without notice, but "Polish Death Camp" is historically, geographically and grammatically correct.

It's about the impression left. And the president's remarks made the wrong impression, even if it's pretty obvious he didn't intend to offend anybody or rewrite history.

As for the role of Poles in the Holocaust, there's no shortage of scholarship on this.

If you haven't read it already, I highly recommend Timothy Snyder's 'Bloodlands,' which is a great recent book on Central/Eastern Europe in the 1930s-40s. He talks at length about the Holocaust and the interaction between Germans and Poles. Jan Gross' 1979 work about the Generalgouvernement still holds up as well.

If you have access to JSTOR, this article is an excellent recent assessment of Polish collaboration and the difficulties in studying it.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3649910?uid=3739256&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=56222087453

...and so did everyone else that knows their history. As stated I think it was inartfully said, but the 'outrage' from the Polish PM is severely overblown imho...

Neither was Treblinka, Sobibor or the rest. There were in Reichsgau Wartheland aka Warthegau, as well as other Reichsgau. They were Nazi concentration and death camps.

....

I would never have thought of it. People are looking for something to complain about here.

Everyone knows the Nazis did them, they are only "Polish" with the meaning of "in Poland."

Unless they want to welcome a full and impartial study of their roll in the death camps. Anybody who wants to see what happened should see the movie Shoah. Their "victimhood" is bullshit.

Their outrage is ridiculous considering their history.

Don't apologize for misspeaking. Double down and claim that it's actually true!

"Everyone knows he didn't mean it but it's true."

Confusing.

Not enough for them apparently. Screw them.

Seriously.

making country's with wretched histories feel better about themselves. He has nothing to apologize for.

The Germans killed anyone who aided a jew (even giving them a drink of water in some cases) - and the rule was only this strict in Poland... yet hundreds of thousands of Poles hid jews in their homes. In fact the reason that the rule was so much stricter (the automatic death sentence) in Poland was because the Polish response was so strong.

I recommend "Out of the Inferno: Poles Remember the Holocaust"

Thanks for saying it.

And you're saying that he didn't.

So perhaps you could work on getting your story straight?

Yes, he has already copped to misspeaking...here's that story:

http://www.freep.com/article/20120530/NEWS15/120530054/Barack-Obama-Polish-death-camp-remark

The Poles are not satisified with that and want an apology which they do not deserve.

An NSC spokesman said that the President misspoke and that we regret it. The President hasn't said anything.

Poland (through their head of state directly) has asked for an apology. They are owed one by our head of state... directly.

Painting an entire nation with that same biggoted brush certainly doesn't make you look any better.

Just because the head of state (who I would expect to stand up for their country) demands an apology doesn't mean he gets one. He misspoke - suck it up. Poland (between the Warsaw ghetto and their enthusiastically turning in their Jews and turning a blind eye to what was happening in the death camps) doesn't deserve shit. What you think of me doesn't mean a thing.

... while insisting that ours need do no such thing (even when he was the cause of the offense).

A statement of regret by a flunky doesn't count.

What you think of me doesn't mean a thing.

That's exceedingly good news for you.

Why on earth would anyone care what an anonymous poster thinks? Are people that insecure? Pres Obama is standing up for this country by staying out of this. I also suspect some other motive but since it will probably make your head explode, I'll keep that to myself.

...if you had kept your opinion to yourself from the beginning.

Why on earth would anyone care what an anonymous poster thinks?

Quite an ego that you think I do. But I care about those readers who will mistakenly believe that such bigotry is indicative of DU (or Democrats in general).

Can't deal with someone disagreeing with you? And I'm just fine just the way I am, thanks for your concern. Like I said before, your knowledge of this particular part of history is sorely lacking.

A bigger man would apologize and put the issue to rest PERMANENTLY rather than worrying about saving face.

He has already said he misspoke. What do they want - crawling? Trying to portray themselves as abject victims of the nazis is a perversion of history. It's not up to the US President to make the Poles feel better about their horrid history.

(as are some of our right wing assholes) that he said the Poles ran the death camps. That is not historically correct - the nazis ran the camps. The Poles just stood by, pointed out the Jews, transported them to the camps and inhaled their ashes every day.

Poles did not run the trains while under occupation. The Germans did.

Again I recommend watching the movie Shoah where they interview actual Poles who ran the trains - knowing where they were going and what was going to happen. I'm quite familiar with the Polish history of WWII - it's where most of my family was wiped out.

Hundreds of thousands of them lost their lives during the invasion. They became a conquered/occupied nation though they never surrender. Some continued resistance (the largest such group in europe even though Poland was by no means the largest occupied nation, in addition to polish forces in France and England that continued the fight) and some few (compared to hundreds of thousands in the resistance) "pointed out jews"... but it's ridiculous to say "the poles" did these things when clearly they (as a people) did not. Why would you label an entire defeated nation with the actions of a small minority and ignore the actions like those that the President was honoring with the medal?

Such ignorance and bigotry are unbecoming of the DU community.

I suggest you see Shoah and get back to me. That you say "some" turned in the Jews is a complete lie.

Labeling an entire people (which necessarily includes the jews who are also polish) as Nazi enablers when the nation spilled its blood in opposition to those Nazis... is dishonest and immoral.

You've argued very well and I thinking the President needs to be more forthcoming.

No, their victimhood was quite real. Poles were treated as expendable slave labor too. Many of the Xian population hid Jews when they could and risked their and their family's lives doing it. It's documented in the number of Righteous honorees and even in Maus.

No - most Poles were only too happy to turn in their Jewish neighbors and transport them to the death camps. That there were some righteous sprinkled in is only meaningful to those they saved. What's their excuse for the Warsaw ghetto? Try seeing Shoah and tell me the Poles were victims.

movie Shoah is, do you? What could possibly be more historical than a 9 hour documentary that speaks to actual Poles about what happened instead of reading some academics opinion?

And as far as comparing Israel to the nazi's - yawn.

..That's what sticks in my craw. There is an element of white-wash about the Polish PM's protestations that gloss over the eager help the Germans had in exterminating Polish Jews from native Poles themselves.

At the end of the day I think that the WH correction is more than sufficient and the Poles need to move on.

They were eager to cooperate with the Nazis, and to sacrifice any number of European Jews. You can read about it for yourself in the 51 original documents collected by Lenni Brenner.

It definitely calls for an apology IMO.

should have consulted the State Dept. who, one would hope, would set this out for the President with the adjectival phrase "death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland."

An extended apology, perhaps with the help of the Polish Embassy, would do no harm and would enhance Obama's image, both here and in Poland.

We have more pressing concerns here, than the poles little feeling getting hurt.

a Nazi German Holocaust death camp located within the borders of Poland. Seems wordy.

..

Not clear enough.

But it's weird. Despite the fact there were French collaborators, including the Vichy government (without parallel in Poland), you never see people bashing the French to this degree. Vichy troops even fought the Allies.

concentration camps. It is also an excellent novel. Quite a story and very shocking about what
went on in Paris. There was a lot of silence about this reality until Premier Pompidou, years later, finally made a strong statement owning up to that complicity on public TV in France.

See the movie if you can. It is quite well done.

on a fashion blog I read, I comment, "Oh, the Nazi collaborating Chanel?? I despise her and everything about her company." I cannot believe the people who were given a pass on working with the Nazis. Disgraceful.

"concentration camp in occupied Poland"

A major gaffe, although I can "get" how it happened. A personal apology, and maybe a visit to Auschwitz.

the lessons of the Holocaust.

I hope he has the chance to make this solemn visit. It is a sober reminder to all of us....

...let's not gloss over that fact...

He was absolutely correct. Auschwitz was in Nazi-occupied POLAND, hence 'Polish death camps' as opposed to those that were located in other countries. It was a surprisingly inartful way of saying what we all know he meant.

The WH has apologized and has moved on. As should everyone else.

Besides, Polish leadership doesn't have a leg to stand on when calling out other world leaders for momentary "foot-in-mouth" lapses...In recent years there have been highly questionable comments on women, gays and nonwhites...And until I see those apologies I suggest they drop down off the high horse...

I don't understand why he wouldn't do this now.

I see lots of it here, anti Pole, anti Catholic, anti apologist and more I probably missed.

It is obviously a misspeak and Obama should have even caught it. Yet since it was said a apology should be given. If the Poles would like a personal note to their PM, I do not see that as unreasonable.

For those who wish to condemn all Poles for the actions of some who collaborated, I challenge you to find ANY country under Nazi rule that did not collaborate. Also find any eastern European nation that was not at some level anti-Semitic or had pogroms. Try it in western Europe, though pogroms were much less common there.

I would direct your attention here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
and note which countries are not listed. I see two (Hint look in the 'Cs' and 'Ps')

...My grandparent's survived the death camps, and I don't think this is really worth blubbering about.