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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSalon: The United States is scarier than the Islamic State
I have been very behind in educating myself on ISIL. I'm amazed at how similar they are to Christian fundamentalists in using endtimes prophecies to manipulate people. I can't help but wonder how the substance of some of the war mongering we hear (and what is said in religious groups behind closed doors) is truly different from the terrorist leaders? Do our power and technology dress up the very same phenmomenon? Getting this many people to die for an endtimes cause is Jim Jones shit.
Even our closest allies fear that we are a menace militarily and environmentally
http://www.salon.com/2015/12/20/the_united_states_is_scarier_than_the_islamic_state/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Trump and republicans may be employing this most efficiently, but I really think it's in response to a large number of endtimes fundamentalists. They are the ones who worry that gay marriage and abortion will visit some kind of armegeddon rage upon us. Democrats are not above pandering to them. We need to pay close attentions to local elections!
They attacked evolution by getting on school boards where they could.
Response to loyalsister (Original post)
polichick This message was self-deleted by its author.
Mosby
(16,319 posts)Facility Inspector
(615 posts)And got swarmed by retrofitted pick up trucks with machine guns mounted in the beds.
A group of fundamentalist christians compelled me to convert to Christianity then sliced my head off for being an apostate.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)......I got better....
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)guess they liked you more
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)madville
(7,412 posts)in order to be forced to take our money and then in return make a few hundred thousand on a GoFundMe page, terrifying indeed.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)Haven't noticed anything like that in KC recently. But you never know. We have a whole lot of Bible beating going on here. If they all get machetes it could be a blood bath for left leaning Democrats like me.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)They don't want to be seen going into the mosque, and have had people call them terrorists.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)than Kansas City. Not saying that we don't have our share of hysterical bigots but I haven't heard about any problems do far.
I kind of wish the women wouldn't wear their scarves for a while. I'm afraid it makes them targets. We have so many races and so many religions around here that no one can tell who is who just by looking. But those scarves are like waving a red flag at some of our worst fanatics.
I read that a couple of women had been shot at but I don't know where it was.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Hardly. There was a bit of a spiteful rightward bent, but for the most part the city has recovered. We still went for Obama both times. I expect the city council will pass a marijuana horticulture decriminalization measure, too.
In terms of demographics, there are people from all over the world studying here. There's a mosque and a Hindu temple which usually exist very comfortably. There are quite a few Muslim business owners. We once had a coffee shop called Osama's. It was great because it had a fireplace and basically sat on campus. They got some threats after 911, but there was a lot of community support. Eventually Osama's other coffee shop won out.
The small towns that surround us are RW and voters in the outskirts pushed the election of a republican state senator and mayor largely out of spite.
I know there's a liberal Kansas City bubble. But if you venture over to the KS side (Mission Hills, Leawood). The IndependenceLee's Summit areas and the northland are pretty RW.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)I know they are Republicans for the most part. Johnson County is mostly business people and Republican but I think they tend to be old line Republicans . My aunt lives out there and she said it's about 80 percent Republicans.
I never go out to Lee's Summit but I know there are some big fundamentalist churches out that way. We have a big bible believing Baptist Church pretty close to me and those guys are just plain mean. And we have a lot of Catopics here North. We have a lot of Catholic churches all around.
But I haven't heard about any trouble so far.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Family and friends provide me with a pretty large sample. My family on the KS side does not reflect the region politically. They are the most liberal. Lee's Summit people are excessively religious and fall for the fundie crap.
Liberty peeps are the most right wing. There's a pretty influential Catholic church and a Baptist megachurch along with many others. As a kid, my parents decided to experiemnt with churches. They took us to one that had a preacher who would make John Edwards proud. It was terrifying!
Most of my family and former classmates in Liberty and Kearney area are way RW.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)Is out Lee'S Summit way.
I spent 6 years in Salt Lake city so nothing seems all that bad to me.
I just stay away from the Right wingers. Most of my friends are Catholic and some of them are pretty liberal. Thank goodness.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)That documentary was SOOO creepy!
A Pentacostal church sits next to the elementary school I attended in Liberty. I can't remember for sure if it was there when I was a student there.
My friends in Columbia are awesomely liberal. Family (especially the Liberty folkd) that I have to see on occassion are horribly RW. Sadly, I have to see them or create an extreme disrution. I avoid that conflict, but I do speak up.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)He was one of the most hateful people I ever met. But that is just one guy so you can't just judge everyone by him. He just hated the Catholics. But I did get him on that one. He had a terribly disabled daughter who needed pretty much round the clock care. So one morning I told him about the Sisters of Mercy who have a convent here in the KC area. They are all medical people. They wear white kind of old fashioned habits. I'm not sure just what they do during the day when they aren't trying to get some sleep but at night they fan out all over the city to homes where there are family members who need round the clock care. And they sit and watch and give medical attention all night long so that family members can get some rest.
He kind of looked at me funny and then said that that was really a nice thing for them to do. I'm not Catholic but I never told him that. I don't agree with everything the nuns do but they also do some really nice things in service to the poor in this town. I wouldn't want to get into a religious debate with them but I admire them.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Then, my mom followed my dad's wishes and left the church. I have known a lot of catholics who are true to values that I respect. My grandma is anti-war, anti- death penalty, and whole heartedly believes in helping poor people. Of course abortion is the sticking point, but I do respect her consistency. I know some pro-choice liberal Catholics.
I agree with you about nuns. They really are dedicated and they make a positive difference in the lives of many people.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)I don't agree with a lot of the stuff but I think the Mass is beautiful. Sometimes I go and just sit in the back where no one notices me and listen.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I saw an anthropologist give a talk on the artistic elements of religion. The idea is that the rituals and literature are based in artistic expression as much as anything. It was really interesting.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)caused more death, destruction and misery than all of the terrorist attacks in the entire world combined for the past 100 years.
Your post clearly illustrates the perception management of the collective American worldview, where no matter what sort of violence the US government perpetrates, it isn't regarded as harmful. This is an attitude that poses a serious impediment to world peace and cooperation.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It was all about scary Muslims and war.
I guess some American seem to be under the impression that all of our wars are just natural disasters, or that brown lives don't matter.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)even those presumably informed ones on a progressive discussion forum, are ill-equiped to draw rational conclusions about this sort of issue. Reform to education is definitely a top priority.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Just the GIA in Algeria caused the death of half a million people
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)not a foreign invasion or terrorism.
People throughout the world consider the US to be the biggest threat to world peace, not terrorists or the combatants of a civil war that ended years ago.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)The Algerian civil war was to a large degree religiously motivated
The Shia/Sunni wars are religiously motivated
So there is a good case for religion (today, Islam) being the biggest threat to world peace
Tomorrow, Chinese nationalism will also be a solid candidate for global mayhem
Have you noticed all the countries in maritime disputes with China?
The USA being the lone big bad wolf will have lasted twelve years: 1989-2001
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)With no air forces or navies, threaten the ruling order of any Western power?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Therefore the mighty US Air Force and Navy are of very limited use.
Look at Mali: islamists almost succeeded in taking over a whole country.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)or have been bombed with US supplied weapons by US supported nations may disagree with you. The US has long shown that it is the world's greatest threat to world peace.
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Facility Inspector
(615 posts)and could do all of this without going through a military checkpoint.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)the US isn't one of the many nations the US military is bombing, or has bombed.
Though driving through the US Southwest you will likely run into numerous border patrol (feels like military) checkpoints, usually many miles from the border.
This seems rather inappropriate for an alleged free country. I wonder how people put up with this authoritarian crap.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The problem the Republicans see is not the rise of religious fundamentalists who reject reason, embrace cruelty and violence, and try to destroy anyone not in their cultural tribe.
It's just that to them, it's the wrong tribe doing it.
I see people in the thread curling their lip at the comparison, but our conservatives espouse the same levels of intolerance, the same contempt for reason and the rights of others; the same utter lack of empathy or moral compunction.
And our leaders -- even our minor ones -- have far, far greater actual physical power in the world than the latest Muslim extremist group.
Mike Huckabee, who has been taken semi-seriously as a Presidential candidate, and who has been a governor in a state probably larger than anything ISIL will ever control, has said that the Bible takes precedence over the Constitution, and that women only want reproductive healthcare because liberals have convinced them they can't control their own libidos.
Jeb Bush, a member of America's most powerful political family, suggested that incoming refugees be screened to allow in only Christians.
The entire most recent Republican debate was a contest to see who could sound the most extreme and ferocious in their proposed response to the San Bernadino shootings, because it was apparently motivated by radical Islam. Not a peep about the previous mass shooting by a conservative Christian nut motivated by a hatred of Planned Parenthood. Or the other rightwing nut who murdered Sikhs at their own house of worship, because he equated them with Muslims. Or the other rightwing nut who shot a conservative Christian to death because he thought he was Jewish. Or the other rightwing nut who murdered black people in a church for racist reasons. Or the previous rightwing nut who shot some people in his apartment complex because they were Indian and he thought they were in his parking space.
Chris Hayes asked Republican Rep. Steve King about the parallels between the PP shooting and San Bernadino, and he literally smirked and said his religion doesn't agree with Planned Parenthood, so ...
He essentially said it was fine. The same Mr. King smirked the same way when yet another rightwing nut flew a plane into an IRS building and killed a custodian. He could "understand the impulse" or some such thing.
And of course Donald Trump, who appears to be consciously mocking the conservative id, is winning by proposing we execute entire families and block Muslim fleeing ISIL from entering the country, while encouraging his supporters to drag protesters at his events out by their heels.
Most of the Republican field seems to support intrusive surveillance and the torture of prisoners (maybe not Rand Paul, but who's listening to that guy?)
Most of them likewise have no problem adopting the stance that scientists are probably lying about the effects of carbon on the environment to make pollution seem like a bad idea.
Most of them, including the new Republican Speaker of the House, espouse a "no exceptions" outlawing of abortion, and would force rape victims and children to give birth, and investigate miscarriages as possible "murder," a thing which is happening already in this country.
We DO have within our "mainstream" establishment people every bit as contemptuous of the rule of law, of objective truth, or of human rights, as the most bloodthirsty Islamic radicals. The fact that they have not gotten everything they want at the moment is not as big a difference as people would like to pretend.
So how different are "we," really?
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)"We DO have within our "mainstream" establishment people every bit as contemptuous of the rule of law, of objective truth, or of human rights, as the most bloodthirsty Islamic radicals. The fact that they have not gotten everything they want at the moment is not as big a difference as people would like to pretend."
How many laws making it harder to get an abortion will pass before the Supreme Court sees them for what they are part of a tireless, coordinated nationwide assault on the right of women to control what happens with their own bodies without the interference of politicians?
One answer is, no fewer than 288. Thats how many abortion restrictions states have enacted since the beginning of 2011, when aggressively anti-choice lawmakers swept into statehouses around the country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/opinion/sunday/the-reproductive-rights-rollback-of-2015.html?mwrsm=Facebook
Their agenda is being codified in law. Textbooks that deny history and science are being adopted. Westboro Baptist church developed a strategy to perpetuate their hate nationally. Something will fill that void.
We dismiss the bakers and clerks at our peril because the haters are always looking for like minded individuals to rally around. They find them among the cheerleaders for anti- <whatever> hate, and more quietly in their local church groups.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... with all the primitive thinking about human rights, the role of women in society and insistence on pre-scientific views of the physical world that entails.
I fell into some Internet hole today where people were talking about "the biggest lie you ever believed." There was a striking number of responses from people brought up in fundamentalist Christian schools who were taught that "fossils are a lie planted by Satan," and that there used to be an "extra canopy of oxygen" on the earth that allowed people to live for hundreds of years. In their private-school SCIENCE class. They literally had to unlearn these things to accept what most of us would think of as basic objective reality.
I read too that the PP clinic in Colorado, which is still closed due to the shootings there, *already has protesters* hanging plastic baby dolls in the trees and screaming at anyone who walks near.
We cannot be like this. Reason cannot be an option people can subscribe to or not. I don't know how proud we can be that we are not beheading apostates in the public square or selling women to soldiers, simply because the people pushing us in those directions have not gotten us all the way there yet.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)and with constitutional protection. I'm not advocating removing that protection, but rejecting any sense of social resposibility for terrorizing people on that basis enables the most hateful expressions and actions to thrive and increase. Likewise, just because we have a history of book burning does not justify textbooks full of lies, and the anti-intellectualism that denies any validity of gray areas.
The faulty 2nd amendment interpretation that is now so embedded in our culture that few people are outraged when someone is shot based on fear- even if they are unarmed and walking away, and especially if the shooter works for the government.
Any text can be interpreted in ways that have negative consequences.
Freedom of speech is understood by many as freedom to greatly offend and even terrorize people without social responsibility. People reject the possibility of inciteful speech on that premise and hate festers into motivation and action. Especially if it is based in religion.
But, we were founded on religious freedom and we're the greatest country in the world because of that AND because we don't stone or behead people.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)And Shia, who are killed automatically by Isis for being apostates. Pretty sure many of the women and girls held as sex slaves are pretty mad at Isis before being raped to death.
Comparing the Republicans to Isis discredits the left.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The ones who suggest American women should be strapped down and forced to give birth against their will? Who want to prosecute them for murder for a miscarriage?
The ones who want a religious test for who can hold office or enter the country?
The ones who rage about one mass shooting by one kind of extremist but have little to say about mass shootings committed by their own lunatics?
The ones who mock our own human rights standards and say we should execute families in acts of revenge and torture prisoners?
No. Republicans and Christian extremists discredit themselves. They are not only no better than Muslim extremists, but strengthen and enable them by proposing that America be vicious and intolerant as the worst of our enemies. They are so stupid and dishonest that they use the idea of a worldwide religious war to try to garner support. They make the arguments of Muslim extremists for them and perpetuate the same small minded ignorance.
Republicans haven't lost anyone to ISIL. They enabled the wars that allowed them to seek power, and then imply that the real conflict is between Islam and Christianity, which is a sickening lie.
Defending them discredits the country.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)since Glen Greenwald left that joint. The US is so scary that people escaping the IS are coming to the US. Add that to the millions of people not escaping the IS and still want to come here.
And no, I didn't even read the article, just reacting to the ridiculous title of the article.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)and Muslim citizens in the US? People are living in fear in the US because of the Islamaphobia endorsed and stoked by politicians who are reflecting what they hear from people on the ground.
romanic
(2,841 posts)But Muslims are still miles (no more like lightyears) safer living in the U.S. or any other civilized country versus the fucking hellhole "caliphate".
linuxman
(2,337 posts)I'm pretty sure it's some kind of mocking, right wing, leftist-caricature performance art.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Are there some inaccuracies you can point to?
I strongly suspect that being confronted by the crimes committed by your own government, simply causes you some cognitive discomfort.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)If we are worse why are they risking life and limb and loved ones to run from them and to us? Are these refugees just stark raving idiots in your view? Why don't they refuse to come here and demand to go to some other country, like Saudi Arabia if they despise us so?
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)It causes more deaths and more damage than terrorism, and not by a small margin, either. This is conclusively demonstrated by the historical record. This doesn't mean that Saudi Arabia is a more secure place to live than the US.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)to the loving arms of Isis, since they are our superiors. Hugely daft post. I suppose for heterosexuals like yourself ISIS is welcoming and comforting. It is an organization comprised of straight people who murder gay people.
I don't relate to your idea of that which is comforting. Sorry kid.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)are a major cause of the religious and political extremism there. The global economic order and its energy system absolutely must change, if we expect to achieve social justice for all and to mitigate the impending climate disasters.
I never commented on the Syrian refugees (for the record, I would not send them back), so your post doesn't make much sense to me. Clearly, our political leaders didn't think things through thoroughly, before they launched their illegal, morally illegitimate invasion of Iraq.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)In contrast, regionally, residents of the U.S. and Canada are most likely to say that military attacks against civilians are sometimes justified. Americans are the most likely population in the world (49%) to believe military attacks targeting civilians is sometimes justified, followed by residents of Haiti and Israel (43%).
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DirkGently
(12,151 posts)to be attacked. We are justifiably outraged by a mass shooting of 14 people, but our drones distribute death routinely, and we apparently just give ourselves permission to assume whoever dies was guilty of something.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)the truth or lack thereof in this article depends on one's perspective. To us, it probably seems hyperbolic, but to a civilian in Iraq, for instance, this might seem perfectly reasonable.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)The violence of the US invasion of Iraq and the damage it caused are things that are easy to quantify, and Islamist terrorism does not even approach them.
Response to ronnie624 (Reply #21)
Scootaloo This message was self-deleted by its author.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)who are living in fear because they encounter Donald Trumps attitudes regularly how is it different? I have talked with more than one and their fear is real.
The violence against black citizens is rooted in vengeance and fear justified with biblical "light and dark" references. I had a friend who was roped into it. She was convinced BY HER CHURCH that she was not responsible for her "sins" because the married black man led her into darkness. Soon she started spouting gay bashing, Islamic bashing, quoting Mike Huckabee and rejecting autonamy for women. They made her feel comfortable with the hate by convincing her that the only reason she would be invested is because she loves all people and wants all people to be saved. She justifies the beliefs and actions of fellow believers based on a belief that they did it out of love.
These groups are extremely dangerous and are at the root of the KKK, abortion clinic violence, gay bashing....
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)give a shit. It is that simple. If it is done to LGBT DU yawns and says 'what do they expect' but if it is done to a religious minority DU has threads of hundreds of posts equating that discrimination or violence to the end of the world and holding all America to account for it.
The double standard gets difficult to endure.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Americans of the white Anglo-Saxon variety often have a hard time putting themselves in the shoes of others. We are so steeped in American (white Christian American) exceptionalism.
ileus
(15,396 posts)ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Setting the record straight would be very helpful.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Astonishing how all these immigrants want in to the US from Isis territory. If only they knew how much worse it is here!
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)when terrorists develop the ability to launch invasions from half way across the world that result in the destruction of entire countries and the deaths of millions of people.
Terrorists are weak. They pose no threat to the global economic/political order. They lack the weapons and capacity to do so. But the best way to reduce that threat even further, is through a reevaluation of our government's policies that make people want to attack us. You can't murder women and children in other countries and then realistically expect the people there to not want to attack you for it.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)The entire non-Muslim world would be conquered or be annihilated by nuclear weapons. The Shia countries would be nuked regarded as apostates (the official Isis punishment for apostasy).
Terrorists have a hard time striking us, but they terrorize Nigerians, Syrians, Libyan, Somalis, and others. Of course they don't count by your reckoning.
Nice try though.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)if not for the violent, self-serving policies of resource dominance employed by the US government. The Wests greed motivated meddling is the root cause of the extremism in Central Asia. US imperialism is the elephant in the living room, here.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I'm not one of these America infallible types. We are greatly culpable for Isis. It could be argued we are wholly to blame.
I just don't think we're equivalent.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)To take hold of almost entire countries.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)romanic
(2,841 posts)Salon is proving itself to be the far-left version of Breitbart. Pure utter crap.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Not worth the paper it's printed on, if it were on paper.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)At least, to my pea brain.
ISIS could only dream of creating the terror and instability American corporations and shareholders have bequeathed us all. From the backing of China after the events of Tienanmen Square and the outsourcing of our manufacturing to avoid taking responsibility for cleaning up their own messes in this country to wars for resource control and the overthrowing of fledgling democracies to assure Wall St superiority.
We live in the most peace the MIC and Wall St will allow.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I'm not even going to bother with the article.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Didn't think so. I invite them to vote with their feet.
The slam-the-US-thing is old. And I'm really not interested in any justification of terrorist sentiments.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)It's not as if anyone has to speculate about the chaos it has brought to the people of Central Asia.
You and I are safe, here in America, but over all, the US war on terror diminishes everyone's security, by increasing the risk for greater conflict.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)but certainly the US causes more trouble on this earth than any nation.
Of course the US is a powerful nation and the opportunity is there. Unfortunately many people in the US are very full of themselves and have no problem screwing those that they consider inferior.
How often do you hear or see Americans make comments about turning foreign nations to glass, or similar type statements. Most people in this world don't think that way. That view is reflected in Americans' unmatched willingness to murder civilians, as the Gallup poll above indicates.
Recent history, going back decades, proves the terrible war-mongering nature of the US. The last Republican debate was mostly about war, and the leading Democrat also loves war. It is who we are. Most people appear to be fat-dumb-and-happy about this. Those bombs the US delivers are the scary brown people's problem.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Most people scrupulously avoid addressing the history and underlying motives for Western involvement in the ME along with its self-serving nature.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)ronnie624
(5,764 posts)to ask the opinions of those who currently live with the chaos we have caused through our violent interventions in their countries.