General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhite Christian Terrorists.
Last edited Sun Jan 3, 2016, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)
White anti-government protesters refuse to pay the fees they run up.
The Bundy family use of guns is terror. Taking over a government building is tyranny.
Context: Dwight Hammond, 73, and his son Steven, 46, were sentenced to five years in prison in October for illegally setting fires on U.S. Bureau of Land Management property near Diamond, Oregon. Both men already served time for the offense, which involved setting fires that spread to government lands they leased to graze cattle, but another judge ruled that both must go back to prison because their initial sentence was too short.
UPDATE: Right wing militia from Bundy Ranch occupy federal wildlife building in Oregon
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/or-residents-blast-trigger-happy-idiot-right-wing-militia-for-defending-ranchers-who-set-federal-land-on-fire/
The building seized by the group houses the offices of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and is operated by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, about 30 miles southeast of Burns, in Harney County.
"Activists." The article neglects to mention that they are armed. I wonder how that happened.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-ranchers-will-return-to-prison-angering-far-right-activists.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1
MSM is clearly reporting this event with as much sympathy for the insurgent traitors as possible.
Susanne posted a link last night to HuffPo that is the widely-reported (by all media outlets) AP version:
http://theobamadiary.com/2016/01/03/early-bird-chat-624/#comment-1460624
Hey ABC I fixed that typo for you:
:large
https://twitter.com/TariqToure/status/683515467252772866/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Sunday, Jan 3, 2016 · 12:57:37 AM PST · mamabigdog
Update at 9:15 p.m.:
Statement from Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward: "After the peaceful rally was completed today, a group of outside militants drove to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, where they seized and occupied the refuge headquarters. A collective effort from multiple agencies is currently working on a solution. For the time being please stay away from that area. More information will be provided as it becomes available. Please maintain a peaceful and united front and allow us to work through this situation."
Can't resist posting this one from Jim Wright at Stonekettle Station:
You know you're a badass Tea Party patriot motherfucker when your militia takes over an unprotected bird sanctuary
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/2/1465619/-Militia-men-occupy-federal-building-in-Burns-OR
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)will be used against the group. I've not even heard much about it on MSM. All silent for the most part on national news. I first heard of it on DU and then Google News.
malaise
(269,186 posts)now
pandr32
(11,617 posts)...but Mormon, and not very contemporary Mormons either, but old-school like in the nineteenth century. Mormons have declared war on America before and caused a whole lot of death and destruction to 'real' American militia personal (cavalry and other U.S. forces) and many innocent non-Mormon people. So-called Mormon "militia" back in the 1800's disguised themselves as Indians to massacre settlers and wreak havoc. The Mormon founder, Smith, died in a shoot-out after trying to escape custody.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)pandr32
(11,617 posts)Best to you
Bonx
(2,075 posts)strictly a hit and run poster.
cali
(114,904 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,925 posts)Hmmmm....
cali
(114,904 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,925 posts)Actually, I agree with you. Calling every-fucking-thing terrorism is cheapening the word.
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)Plain old fashioned thuggery, they got away with it once so now are trying again... They were down here near me when the deal went down about the mining claim same thing here the ones arguing with government told them to stay away but they came anyway set up a tent and had it there for about a month..
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 3, 2016, 01:21 PM - Edit history (1)
I would generally agree that the word terrorism gets tossed around too freely, but when an armed group takes over a federal building and threatens violence against anyone who tries to remove them that seems to be a pretty clear cut case of terrorism to me.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)EL34x4
(2,003 posts)"Both men already served time for the offense, which involved setting fires that spread to government lands they leased to graze cattle, but another judge ruled that both must go back to prison because their initial sentence was too short.
When in the hell did we start doing this?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There is a mandatory minimum of five years for arson. The judge illegally gave them a lower sentence, which the appellate court threw out.
Are you asking when did we start applying the federal sentencing law?
Or are you asking when did appellate courts have authority to modify decisions of district courts?
Or are you asking when did we start using courts at all?
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)because, it turns out, the original sentence that they served wasn't long enough?
Is nobody else troubled by this?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)In your mind, should courts apply the law or not?
The Hammonds, incidentally, are peacefully returning.
There is nothing in the law that says you get to take over a federal building if you are confused about someone else's case.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)Not by a long shot.
I am merely stating my belief that there is something inherently un-American about forcing people who have already served out their prison sentences to report back to prison to serve more time.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The mandatory minimum was five years, regardless.
They failed to serve five years.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Their sentences were on appeal while they had begun serving them.
The appeals court - you know, the whole "nation of laws" thing - determined the trial judge had erred in the initial sentencing, and they have to serve the correct sentence.
It was the original sentence which did not comport with the law.
Should the law be followed or not?
Once the first judge decided (illegally) to give them a shorter sentence, you can't get their hopes up and say tell them they will serve that time, and then free them, and a while later tell them to report back. It's very messed up.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What section of 28 USC are you applying in your legal analysis?
treestar
(82,383 posts)but that can't be allowed to stand because it will hurt the Hammonds' expectations. No doubt their lawyer explained the problem to them.
Reter
(2,188 posts)Once you come out and are free, it's too late to say the time was too short. Not their problem a judge messed up. If I buy a house for $200,000, you can't say "Oh wait, it was supposed to be $300,000, he made a mistake."
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)We can make things up as we go along, follow the process we have, or change the process.
Yes, we have appellate courts which are empowered to correct legal errors by trial courts. Things like damage awards in civil cases or sentences in criminal cases are subject to appellate review. It does not work at all like your house buying example.
Reter
(2,188 posts)They report back to jail to serve their remaining time. Then they are given a large cash award because of what was wrongfully told to them by the first judge. Seems fair.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Reter
(2,188 posts)All of them are just nuts.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)did so illegally and was likely bought off... he retired shortly thereafter. the new judge is correcting the illegality of his predecessor.
But that doesn't often figure in armchair, Monday morning quarterbacking.
Reter
(2,188 posts)They should investigate.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That's the REAL headline here.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)Spring migration or they will have a horde of pissed off birdwatchers to deal with.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)It's sort of like "Gott Mit Uns" on the Nazi soldiers' belt buckles.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)These good ole boys are simply white assholes who think they are hot shit.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)I just hate guys like this. Fat bellies and no brains.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)they comprise a greater portion of the population than most anticipate.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)Seems to be a lot of that going around in KC. Them and their big macho trucks.
All stupider than a box of rocks.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)out here in the Rockies. And yes, dumber than a box of rocks... with gunz.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,874 posts)I guess you can make yourself fell like hotstuff if you have a gun.
It's really pretty pathetic. Unfortunately some of them are also dangerous. A whole bunch of them are just blowhards trying to look like a big deal. And when you see pictures of them standing there with their legs spread apart and rocking back they just look like those awful dumb characters in Deliverance.
2naSalit
(86,802 posts)New Age Weenie Waving. If they were actually confronted with actual threats to their lives, immediately following the first few casualties on their side they would all be looking for a hole to hide in. Most are 4F chickenhawks... ut there are quite a few of them in ID, MT, SD, ND, NV... much of the west.
See what happens when education is defunded and religions are allowed to act as governing entities in a region? Privatization reinforces crap like this. These people are sheeple at best because they aren't smart enough to actually think.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)What's the death toll now?
They're morons, not terrorists. At least until they start shooting.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Taking over a federal building with guns and threatening violence against law enforcement is clearly terrorism.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)They have engaged in an armed takeover of a federal building and have threatened violence against law enforcement if they attempt to remove them. That is terrorism.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I want numbers.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I don't need to wait until there is a body count to say that an armed takeover of a federal building is terrorism. Hopefully no one will be killed because of their actions, but unfortunately there is a good chance that there will be people killed if they don't surrender soon. They may not have taken any lives yet, but they are certainly putting lives in danger.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)That's all I needed to know.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)If all the terrorists did was this, we wouldn't have so many dying from terrorism. Terrorists don't announce they'll peacefully go to jail afterward.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)In fact they have explicitly stated that they will use violence. Stop trying to downplay what these terrorists are doing.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's why even DU isn't buying this argument. Smells of desperation.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Do you even realize how absurd that argument is?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Reread what I wrote. Actually no you're just going on ignore.
The fact that you have to troll like this shows you don't even believe your own argument.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You said, "If all terrorists acted like these guys, hundreds of thousand of people would be alive today".
And how did these guys act? By engaging in an armed takeover of a federal building and threatening violence if law enforcement tries to remove them.
I am sorry but suggesting that kind of behavior could save hundreds of thousands of lives is absurd.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)Old Codger
(4,205 posts)They are any sort of militia, the word gives them some sort of legitimacy and they really have none..
rockfordfile
(8,704 posts)They are clearly right wing idiots.
Vinca
(50,310 posts)Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)What would be happening if the ones taking over the federal facility were black people. Any one have an example?