Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 10:44 AM Jan 2016

Bunker Standoff Update Day 3: What Do They Want?

I'm not sure if I've ever seen the Wingnut world view laid out so clearly. Worth remembering that for every one of these people who ends up on the evening news, there are thousands more who don't. And still more who are influenced by this belief system to one degree or another. Some of them are very clearly Congressmen, governors, running for president, etc.

I think it also means that to a good approximation, you can't win these people back. They aren't going to ever stop believing this stuff, and they are absolutely going to raise their children to believe it, and attempt to convert others. Combating this kind of world view is more a task of containment.

The real issue here is that Ammon Bundy, as well as his father (as evidenced in his orations during the Bundy Ranch standoff in 2014), and the others involved with taking the Malheur Wildlife Refuge headquarters building have learned, and are now acting on, a completely alternative understanding of US history, the Constitution, their particular religion’s belief, etc. This is a combination of epistemic closure originating from alternative, and factually inaccurate*, source material combined with an equally irrational paranoia that powerful, sometimes secretive, forces are arrayed against them and trying to destroy their way of life. It is all cemented by a pervasive belief that everyone and everything that is not part of their ideological/theological/doctrinal system is either purposefully trying to deceive them or being manipulated and fooled into doing it unwittingly. This is why they first appealed to the Harney County Sheriff, because they believe he is the highest level of legitimate Constitutional government in America**, and once he rebuffed them, they immediately denounced him as somehow being coopted by their enemies or an outright traitor.

Some of Bundy’s and his followers ideas appear to come from the extremes and fringes of Mormon theology. This includes the references to Captain Moroni, who according to Latter Day Saints’ scripture led a successful uprising against a despotic king. It also includes a healthy dose of good old American millenarianism and eschatology and the belief that the Deity is blessing one’s endeavors because one believes them to be righteous. This has been with us since the Revolution when many of the Founders framed the coming fight with King George in apocalyptic terms and the revolutionaries as godly, righteous, and blessed. There also appear to be concepts carried forward from the Sagebrush Rebellion and the Wise Use movement of the 1980s. From what’s been presented, their beliefs also include typical and traditional tropes from the American extreme right. These include ideas about the role of government, civil society, and race relations incorporated from the John Birch Society; the Posse Comitatus movement; Christian Reconstructionism / Dominionism; Charismatic Christianity (which was also a baseline for Christian Identity); long standing anti-tax beliefs; and an extremely absolutist understanding of the 2nd Amendment combined with minimalist interpretations of the 1st and 10th Amendment; as well as the Supremacy Clause. Finally, a number of concepts that were in the Confederate Constitution, or in one case the lack of a clause about promoting the general welfare in the Confederate Constitution, seem to also be in play here.

It would be easy to dismiss all of this externally incoherent thought except that it is the social behavioral driver of an increasing number of disturbing incidents that the US seems unprepared to address. What we are witnessing is the result of social learning. These ideas and beliefs are transmitted through the primary associations of family, religion, and education – sometimes religious and sometimes home schooling. Learning that is both formal and informal. They function as the definitions favorable, unfavorable, and neutralizing that enable, promote, or retard behavior. Definitions favorable tell us what acceptable behaviors are. Definitions unfavorable retard unacceptable behaviors. Definitions neutralizing temporarily override definitions unfavorable, based on specific contexts, allowing normally unacceptable, illegal, illicit, deviant, and/or delinquent behavior to occur. These definitions are then socially reinforced within the group, movement, or society when they see other members rewarded or punished for their behavior. This leads to imitation – recreating the behaviors that the group or movement or society seems to reward. It is also almost impossible to counter or disrupt social learning from the outside without an overwhelming intervening event. This is why, 150 years after the end of the Great Rebellion (now doing business as the Civil War), white supremacy and racism still flourish in the US. It is very, very hard to disrupt and change (reconstruct) ideational systems and the cultures that they reside within. The Egyptians believed they had deradicalized the Muslim Brothers while they were incarcerated. Egypt’s reality over the last three years tells us this was not a successful endeavor.***

So what does all this mean for what is happening at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge? At one level it means we know what it is they believe, even if it doesn’t quite seem to add up for those of us looking in from the outside. It also means we know the process by which these beliefs are transmitted, as well as how they are adjusted over time. Developing a way to ever be able to successfully neutralize those beliefs, even if it is just long enough so that the current standoff can be ended without further incident, is the difficult part. In many ways Ammon Bundy, his father and brothers, and his followers at Malheur Wildlife Refuge and across the country are using the same words, grammar, and syntax as the rest of us. Unfortunately, they are also speaking a completely different language and there is no translation codex to help us interpret the conversation, establish communications, build rapport, and engage with them to constructive ends.

https://www.balloon-juice.com/2016/01/04/balloon-juice-bunker-standoff-update-day-4-what-do-they-want/
10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
3. Because there are millions of these people and they have a huge political influence.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 10:49 AM
Jan 2016

Most of them aren't ever going to engage in terrorism, or insurrection, or sedition. But they absolutely do an enormous amount of damage to our contry in other ways. We'd better start understanding them and figuring out what to do about them. The last 40 years of trying to appease them, hoping they'll "see the light" or just go away haven't been working, and they aren't going to work.

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
4. And perpetually stoked by hate radio/tv/internet! I believe in free speech and all, but some
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jan 2016

of these sources are akin to Joseph Goebbels IMO.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
5. I agree about understanding.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 10:55 AM
Jan 2016

But their demands are moot due to their actions. We know what they're about, delusions of grandeur.

bhikkhu

(10,722 posts)
6. It reminds me of one of the old ideas about insanity
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 11:29 AM
Jan 2016

that it was simply a mind that had wrong information, believed in wrong ideas about how things were, misunderstood reality. Disproven essentially for most cases, but perhaps here you just have basically functional people who have all the wrong information, and have wilfully isolated themselves from the real world for selfish or childish reasons. A whole insulated culture behind that.

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
7. Yes, it's called "epistemic closure"
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 11:35 AM
Jan 2016

Their system of beliefs is internally consistent (sort of... more or less), and they view any other competing system as corrupt. The more you try to explain anything to them, the more they see it as proof that they are right, and you are trying to corrupt them.

It's actually rather like a cult in that respect, except it's a cult that has millions of adherants. We can't just deprogram them all.

As you say, it's not really insanity, in the sense of some underlying problem with brain chemistry, or neural wiring. But the resulting behavior may be hard to distinguish one way or the other.

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
10. I agree they're similar in some ways.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 06:13 PM
Jan 2016

At least with group-think, new inputs are possible. Epistemic closure is potentially impenetrable to any conflicting inputs.

Nitram

(22,869 posts)
8. I know what I want. I'd like to see them freeze their asses off and then leave with...
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 12:20 PM
Jan 2016

their tails between their legs when they run out of food and toilet paper.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Bunker Standoff Update Da...