Baptist pastor mascarading as a Lutheran for years. He had been in the USN the same time I had been and he claimed to have been spat upon. I challenged him about it and he doubled-down. Just one of several lies I caught him in. Didn't see him at the liquor store though. Oh, well, he wouldn't have spoken there.

but I know that when I was young and part of the Vietnam resistance,
many of us had a seriously negative attitude toward the soldiers.

We naively assumed if they weren't resisting, or deserting, they were
pro-war. And with all the mighty righteousness of that amazing age,
it wouldn't surprise me if returning soldiers were cruelly disrespected.

I have no personal experience of that -- but I do remember my own
ignorant, self-righteous attitude. When you are 20, of course, you
know everything.

The only thing I remember is maybe one quote in some underground newspaper about how if the troops weren't resisting or deserting that meant they were supporting the war. And that's just a VERY vague memory. Even at the time I thought that idea was bullshit.

A LOT of my best buds of the time were vets. We got high together, got drunk together, worked together, dropped acid AND protested the Vietnam war together. As a matter of fact, I first heard the term "fragging" from a Vietnam vet of my acquaintance at that time.

In fact most of my friends that didn't go to Vietnam were a little bit in awe of Vietnam vets. Not because of support for the politics of that war, but because of the life experience of those veterans.

over lunch in the cafeteria that made it sound as if all the hippies in the USA would go to the airport and form double lines of spitters so that the returning troops would have run a gauntlet as they deplaned. I asked him what airport. He turned a little red and said, "all of them!" He's my age and I told him I didn't see anyone behave that way when I was at the airport to meet my fiancee or one of my cousins or classmates. He said, "It's not a myth!" I told him I thought it was REALLY cruel that hippies came to the airport to spit on him, especially since he did his active duty in Korea and not in Viet Nam. He quit gassing about VietNam.

I really doubt that hippies would have any desire to take time out of their day to spit on someone. More than likely they would be busy doing something that Rushbo was jealous of, getting laid.

it can keep you from getting lovin' too. That, and being an obnoxious ass clown can make a man mighty lonely and bitter. Not to mention stupid.

It doesn't get much worse than that.

was committed by them instead Germans who killed members of the 82nd Airborne who they already captured.

Okay, it's a quibble. But when contradicting a false claim, it's useful to get the facts right. The 285th Field Observation Artillery Battalion was an independent unit, not affiliated with or attached to the 82nd Airborne, which was nowhere near Malmedy at the time.

-- Mal

according to the Republicans Hate America website, http://republicanshateamerica.blogspot.com/2005/10/oreilly-claims-82nd-airborne-committed.html, and a few others.

Based on your comment, I now assume that those from the 285th Field Observation Artillery Battalion were the ones who were captured and massacred by the Germans.

since his whole argument was mistaken. At the risk of sounding pious, I do think if we want to remember the men massacred at Malmedy (a number of civilians were killed, also, btw), we should correctly remember their unit. But maybe that really is irrelevant in the end.

-- Mal

As memory serves, one regiment of the 82nd Airborne, following the Malmedy massacre, was ordered by its commander not to take Waffen SS prisoners.

Which is to be expected. The wikipedia article on the massacre claims written orders were handed down by the 328th Inf Regiment. Dunno how reliable the source is. It's hard to believe, a priori, that anyone would put such orders in writing, at least in the US Army. Unofficially, there wouldn't be any need for orders. You tell the troops what happened and who did it, what do you think is going to happen next?

However, I have heard claims from vets that there was an unofficial but very real "no capture" order for Waffen SS right from the start. I wonder if anyone has crunched the numbers on SS prisoners as a proportion of numbers engaged compared to regular Wehrmacht?

-- Mal

them. I think the ultimate source for that one was media.

They guy I mentioned is the only veteran I know who ever claimed to be spit upon.

...says that if someone spit on them, they'd have punched that guy's lights out. That, right there, proved to me that this "spit on the vets" thing was bullshit.

I suspect there would be a bit of a breakdown in the bravado in that case.

-- Mal

They constantly defunded and pulled money for mental health and veteran's services, resulting the multitudes of sick and homeless Vietnam vets.

Spitting would've been better.

and he never had problems with hippies.

He DID have a problem with conservatives who supported the war. I remember he went to the local VFW or American Legion post (can't remember which) shortly after returning to the States, but came home pissed. "Those old farts" as he called them, gave him all this grief about how "we won our war, how come you pussies can't win yours?" It was all he could do to keep from slugging somebody.

I came back from Vietnam twice and did not see anyone abused or spit upon. But, I can't say that it never happened?

They're the more-fascist group. They were named after several other fascist "legions", e.g., the British Legion. They were also the ones whom Smedley Butler was supposed to lead for the coup.

I wonder whether they still serve 10-cent beers. And fondly remember battles that they were never in but others were.

WTF.. How far is this going to go? The American Legion, is now being called a fascist group.....

Fifty years of HATE and counting and there are still people who are so fired up, and you doubt that there was spitting going on as physically battered and mentally broken kids that gave up their youth for the corrupted ELECTED POLS, that drafted them away from our safe homes, returned to ungrateful filthy mobs of pussies at airports and bus terminals?

How was it their fault? We 18 year old kids, got a draft notice that stated, go to WAR or PRISON.. The parents of those mobs, elected those politicians that fed the public lies and propaganda, to justify our involvement in that tragic fraud.. Remember, it wasn't that criminal NIXON administration that sold us down the river, and sent their children to HELL..

The last punch in anger, I threw was to the face of one of those morons that spit at a crippled HERO.. I hit him with my all I could muster to protect a one arm 19 year old solder, my kid brother, after his 20 hours of travel, in the cheap seats, with stinking Asian filth still in his broken nose..

Yes, from all I've ever heard from people in a position to know. The VFW was founded as a self-help group by Span-Am War grunts who saw their fellows being kicked to the curb by the chickenhawks and fatrats who stayed home (then as ever). The AL was founded as a patriotic group and chartered by Congress. Quite a difference.

The rest of your post doesn't seem to make much sense as a response to mine, so I'll presume you got confused.

Sorry if that is the case.. I only witnessed one incident of spitting, but not the name calling, especially early on, but it hit me at the time as absolutely appalling. I don't believe all of this rear-view memory loss.. I became one of the anti war activist years later, because I couldn't in good conscience stay quiet.. My anger then and now, is that I can't justify why the movement treated the solders so badly.. Do not tell it didn't happen, I stopped my friends that were all fired up, that protested with me, to refocus their anger on those that created this quagmire, and not the helpless victimized solders.. Most got it, but some didn't, and obviously still don't..

I returned from Germany in the late '60s, where I'd spent a number of years working for a govt agency (ours, not theirs). My job was quasi-military, so I worked in proximity to many US soldiers. But I never saw or heard of any such goings-on from or about any of those rotating in and out.

Quite a few Germans were upset with the US role in 'Nam. Several "gifts" were left on my VW, no doubt because of its US Forces licence plate and the fact I lived on the economy, but on my return I drove the same car across Canada and the US, with the same plates, and never had the car vandalised in any way. So I suspect that whatever happened, happened to only a few people and was inflated to make a better story.

...I'm not going to argue about whether there were spitting incidents, because there are always assholes, but any such were isolated. The real "denigration" of Vietnam vets was from the older set with the "we won our war" attitude so they didn't even count the new guys as "real" vets. I know some vets group posts wouldn't even let them join. Not all of course, but this was a hell of a lot more widespread than hippies, much less spitting ones.

combat tour in Vietnam and was approached by a small group of college aged kids calling me all kinds of vile names, one girl looked like she wanted to do more but I think the look on my face dissuaded her. Mind you, this was in early to mid Dec. when the details of My Lai were still coming out.

Did the spitting incidents happen? I can't say yes, I can't say no, what I can say is it never happened to me, just the name calling, and only one time. You will always have a few asshole agitators in every crowd.
If it did happen, it wasn't widespread. I used to wonder if the RW pro war idiots were behind alot of the violence to make the anti war movement look bad.
Doesn't really matter anymore, I've retired and moved on.
Pres. Obama's speech at the Wall was the first true welcome home for me.

To all of my Vietnam Brothers
WELCOME HOME.

and the "legends" that it was often focused on the college campuses (at the time, the wealthier tended to send their kids to college, poorer sent their kids to work).

So, the anti-Kennedy/anti-Johnson faction would have had no problem fostering the opposition to the Vietnam War to win power in DC and other places ...

Mitt's daddy was "for" (supportive of) the war, until he decided to run for President ... at that point, his "mental health" suddenly became an issue ... he claimed that his support of the war was due to being "brainwashed" ...

Is the chant "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today" yet another myth that you would be pleased to debunk?

-- Mal

You are welcome to re-read:

Thanks for the clarification.

-- Mal

Mike spent 7 months at Letterman Hospital (a record amount of time compared to Iraq War vets with the same loss) and was thanked often for his service, never had anyone say or do anything hateful. The one vet who told Mike he'd been spat on lied (he told one story, then months later told another story that didn't jive). Mike came to believe it rarely happened.

On my first pass out of the hospital, I was called "baby killer" and other names. It wasn't something that happened frequently, but things like that did happen.

In the preface to his book The Killing Zone, while he was at the University of Denver one day a student, observing the Lieutenant's prosthesis, asked if he had gotten it in Vietnam. When Downs replied "Yes," the student said "It serves you right," and walked away.

"As the man walked away, I stood rooted, too confused with hurt, shame, and anger to react."

Perhaps Lieutenant Downs is part of the grand chickenhawk conspiracy to push the Stab in the Back theory. Perhaps he is telling the exact truth. It is not inconcevable to think that such an exchange would take place.

Whether or not such incidents were common, I would like to doubt. But assholes are everywhere.

-- Mal

He was in a book called "Body Shop: Recuperating from Vietnam"...by Corrinne Browne (sp?) you might recognize some names.

I was on the same floor as the amputees, on the floor's other ward--facial casualties.

Each ward was somewhat insular because we lived together, were seeing the same docs, going to the same primary clinic, and going through a lot of the same med/surg procedures.

When a new patient came into our ward or somebody came back from surgery, we patients set up our own shifts to maintain a bedside vigil through the night until the patient became more stable. I stayed in touch with some of those guys for a while after we got out, and served as best man at the wedding of one former wardmate in San Jose and flew to Ohio to attend the wedding of another.

Sometimes I'd visit the amputees on the other side of our floor, and we'd see each other and sometimes sit together in the cafeteria and the vending machine room. I wouldn't remember their names today, though I remember a bunch from my ward. Still, looks like Mike and I were 'homies' for a while.

Thanks for the info on the book. I found a detailed review with more info on it at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Body-recuperating-Vietnam-Corinne-Browne/product-reviews/0812816137/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

I'm sorry you lost Mike. A lot of us are constantly amazed that we're still here. I'll look for Mike's story in the book.

R.I.P., Mike.

his experience as a vet returning from Vietnam. He asserted that the spitting did occur and I asked him if that was really true. He insisted that it was. I told him that I thought it had been debunked years ago but he was pretty firm. I couldn't really call the guy a liar. He is very smart and generally pretty liberal, so I don't know what to think...

The lecture was just a couple of years ago.

of citizens. I'm sure there were a few spitting incidents here and there. However, I highly doubt that there was anything systematic (or coordinated, for that matter) going on.

I don't think he made it up out of whole cloth, like that history prof up in MA did a few years back (I still can't understand why on earth he would do such a thing since he was a renowned historian at a prestigious school).

what do you think happened after the first spit was delivered?

Did the spitee spit back? And if so, did they deliver more spit than what they received? Or did they try to get away to avoid being spit on some more? And if they tried to get away, how fast did they leave?

Were there any fellow vets witnessing this? What did they do? Did they also help deliver spit in return upon the spitor? Or did they provide a shield and help the spit victim get away? Or did they turn and run so that they would not be spit victims?

You're sure that there were "a few spitting incidents"? Based upon what? John Rambo's bad memories? Stories repeated by pro-war chickhawks or others who wanted to discredit war protestors?

For anyone who thinks that a Viet Nam vet would allow anyone to spit on them at an airport or any place else, they can test this belief by finding an Iraq or Afghanistan vet and spit on them. Just try it, even with the smallest one that can be found, and then see what happens. Just try to not get one with PTSD.

The Vietnam vets that I hung out with (a LOT) were pretty nice guys, but I wouldn't have even THOUGHT about spitting on them even if I was inclined to blame them for the Imperialist leaders that sent them into that mess. I valued my skin too much to put it at risk that way.

There was also an ex-Marine that was in our circle too. He was PRO war (one of the few obviously) and had lost a leg. We used to argue a LOT over Vietnam, but I would have never even considered spitting on him either. Even though I could have outrun Mike, my other buddies (vets and non vets alike) would have chased me down and beat my ass.

The stories just don't really make much sense. Could it have happened? Sure. As a poster upthread said, this is a big country with a lot of assholes in it. Did it happen, especially a lot? I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

to spit on someone who was in a combat zone 24 hours earlier would be dispatched without hesitation. Perhaps there were isolated incidents, but reality dictates otherwise.
If we were victimized, it was by the same people who sent us to the other side of the world to impose an immoral foreign policy at gunpoint. And I'm still pissed of at those war profiteering scumbags.

It's an elegant argument, but ultimately proves nothing.

-- Mal

Did John Rambo even claim that?

Of course, you could enhance the fictional scenario by asking along the following lines:
"What if the spitor was an elderly woman who was crippled with arthritis and had to walk with a cane?"

Who brought up Rambo? You. I never even saw the movie. The veteran I was addressing said that "any" spitter would be "dispatched" immediately. "Any" most assuredly covers women, or elderly grandmoms with canes, or indeed six-year old cherubs with lolipops.

I suggest that saying "If somebody had the nerve to spit on me, I'd have punched his lights out" may, in some cases, be bravado. Since the question is counter-factual, we can hardly arrive at a definitive answer.

-- Mal

Most men I know of our generation would not have struck a woman under any provocation.

-- Mal

would be really, really rare. I wasn't a combat veteran, but I don't remember any poor treatment by anyone in my travels while in the USAF. Just the opposite, really. Since we could fly for half-fare if we were in uniform, I was in uniform on every flight I took anywhere. No spitting. No yelling. No name-calling.

It is a long story, but worth your time.

By Kevin Baker

Every state must have its enemies. Great powers must have especially monstrous foes. Above all, these foes must arise from within, for national pride does not admit that a great nation can be defeated by any outside force. That is why, though its origins are elsewhere, the stab in the back has become the sustaining myth of modern American nationalism. Since the end of World War II it has been the device by which the American right wing has both revitalized itself and repeatedly avoided responsibility for its own worst blunders. Indeed, the right has distilled its tale of betrayal into a formula: Advocate some momentarily popular but reckless policy. Deny culpability when that policy is exposed as disastrous. Blame the disaster on internal enemies who hate America. Repeat, always making sure to increase the number of internal enemies.

http://harpers.org/archive/2006/06/0081080

In other words, civilian control of the military, an essential ingredient for a democracy. In fact, many of the problems in Vietnam were BECAUSE LBJ listened to the generals, not because he didn't.

Kill the babies so that the Communists don't overrun France and England.

After WWI, many German vets adopted the belief that they would have "won" that war if the Jews and Commies and peaceniks hadn't "stabbed them in the back" and stopped "supporting the troops." This theory can be directly linked to the rise of Fascism and the overthrow of Weimar -- although there were, of course, many other reasons contributing to that upset. The Vietnam war was not even over before certain Fascist-inclined elements in this country decided to exploit the confusion and resentment of some returning veterans and float their own version of that chestnut.

It's interesting that 40 years after the fact, politicians are still trying to exploit that confusion and resentment to serve their own ends. Frankly, I find this fact to be evidence in favor of the argument that the Vietnam vets have been stabbed in the back -- but not by the American people in general, rather by the liars and fakirs who are the spritual heirs of the liars and fakirs who sent them to fight in Vietnam in the first place.

But the responses here are interesting, and illustrative of why this process works so well. Instead of addressing the substance of the article -- that the whole "support the troops" meme is actually code for the exact opposite -- most posters in this thread are concerned with individual anectdote: what this or that vet "told" them about what happened, or what they themselves did or experienced. Which is really not the point, is it? Regardless of how returning veterans were treated and by whom they received whatever treatment, the legend of their treatment is used as political fodder specifically by those who think the best way to "support" the troops is to create more wars and thus create the need for more troops. I guess we could call this "job creation."

-- Mal

bravery of the Vietnamese soldiers (as many as 1 million killed, many buried in unmarked mass graves in the South), ignore the fact that even after the American public had started to turn against the war, the media remained solidly behind the war effort.

In the insane search to seek out the back-stabber who lost the war for us, the media who reported the war become the reason the war itself was lost.

All that convoluted and tortured pandering and demagoguery, rather than simply admit that a 3rd-world agrarian society used a centuries-old cultural tradition of nationalism and patriotism to fight us to a stalemate? That narrative does not require insidious traitors spitting on vets and actually makes our vets more human (and thereby more heroic).

Have you seen that one? Mr Cronkite was initially a hawk, like so many others, but (so the legend goes), the shock of the Tet offensive turned him against the Quagmire, and his opposition (The Most Trusted Man in America, after all) sapped our will to continue the war "at any price."

-- Mal

for another 6-7 years, but he may have sapped LBJ's eagerness to run for re-election. IIRC, LBJ turned to an aide after Cronkite's broadcast and said something like, "If we've lost Cronkite, we've lost America." (Don't remember the quote exactly and my memories are getting a bit rusty with age.)

Might even be true. But much as with the legend that Kennedy said to some aide (Schlesinger? My memory's pretty bad, too) that he was agin' the Vietnam war and would stop it if reelected -- "So we better make damned sure I'm reelected," I wonder how much the "memory" may be filtered through the misty glasses of legend. So often, I've found, the best stories turn out to be apocryphal.

-- Mal

it was said allegedly to a junior aide. Checking Stanley Karnow's history right now, on the off chance it's here. May have to go to library. Thinking it may be reported in William Manchester's "Glory and the Dream" (which I don't own).

As for JFK saying he planned to leave Vietnam after his re-election, most of the sober historical assessments I've read argue that JFK only wanted to keep his options on Vietnam open until after the election, not that he had decided on one course of action or another. We would certainly like it if we thought JFK had decided to pull us out, but I don't think the historical record establishes that absolutely.

You are pushing me now to pull some dusty books off my shelves

Is a tremendous compliment. I thank you.

-- Mal

I just discovered. Turns out LBJ's press secretary at the time of the Cronkite broadcast was George Christian. Moyers was LBJ's former press secretary at the time of the Cronkite broadcast.

I'm beginning to think that, if he confided it to anyone, LBJ may have confided to Christian that if Cronkite was gone, so was America. But still looking for confirmation of that. Heading to library this afternoon to check out Manchester's book and other sources.

Nam, many of us were. That's why I have never believed this myth/lie.

Also having been very active in the anti war movement at the time I never heard any one refer to our armed forces as "baby killers". Military brass were fair game but not grunts. That's why when ever I have heard this myth/lie repeated I've challenged it forcefully.

that there have been some fairly credible first-person reports here on DU by posters claiming Vietnam Vet status that they were mistreated upon their return.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014130082

Those first-person reports were challenged vociferously but the person(s) reporting insisted he\they were either called bad names or (second-hand report) spat upon.

Until I read that DU thread, I had thought this was 100% an urban legend, something cooked up by the right wing to somehow explain our loss in Vietnam (the new version of the time-tested 'Stab in the Back' story). However, having read these first-person reports from DUers in good standing, I am now a bit more agnostic on the question.

But I did not see anything in there that changed my mind about what I call a "legend".

are unclear - but there were at least 2 specific DUers who mentioned specifically that they had either been called names or spat upon. They got quite a bit of push-back (understandably) from other Vietnam Vets, but each stood his (her?) ground adamantly about his (her?) experiences.

I was 8 years old in 1968 (when one of them returned home), so how can I sit here in the comfort of my middle-age and tell them it did not happen as they remember it? Is why I now call myself 'agnostic' on the question.

It might be worthwhile to consider the following. In contrast to your 9,987 posts, there were only two DUers that claimed to have adverse first-hand experiences with one having 148 posts and the second having 67 posts.

Express admission of not being spat upon -- Of the two, the one with 148 posts expressly admitted that he was not spat upon. He said, instead, he was "called all kinds of vile names" on one or more occasions. He said, "I was called all kinds of vile names but I wasn't spit on, maybe because the girl who looked like she was about to realized that it would be a huge mistake to do so."

No details -- The second one with 67 posts claims to have been actually spat upon. He doesn't say what happened immediately after the spitting-incident, if it occurred. No details of how much spit was delivered. No details about witnesses, such as fellow vets. And no details about any contemporaneous response. Did he spit back? Did he walk away? At a normal pace? If he was in a bar and telling the I-was-spat-upon-story, the details might have been the most interesting part.

Lack of action consistent with allegation -- Another poster responded to the single reported first-hand account of being spat upon by saying:

one of the two returned home), so who am I to sit here in the comfort of middle-class middle age and tell these guys it did not happen as they remember it? I am shit compared to them and to you. It's not my fault I was born in 1959, but it means I never had to face what your generation did (at least not yet). I was never subject to the draft and never had to choose between service, emmigration, jail or worse. Like I say, I am shit compared to them and to you.

But seriously, thanks for summarizing the accounts on the other thread. I was too busy to deconstruct it. Now, on to more important things

They drew first blood. Not me.

I read this at Salon earlier. Thanks for posting - it needed saying.

... as that implies that the lie wasn't current before Reagan. I will agree that it gained a lot of traction then, as our country began to indulge in the first of a cycle of hand-wringing over how poorly we had mistreated our military -- while doing do-dad to stop the ongoing mistreatment of the military.

-- Mal

remember shouting when I heard that.

If Vietnam was "a noble cause," I'd hate to see what a war based on lies would look like (Maybe Operation Shocking and Awful?)

Kennedy Doctrine? The Line in the Sand? Containment, even? Did we not piously justify our involvement in the Vietnamese Civil War as a defense of freedom from agressors? How much more noble can you get?

Listen to the lyrics of SSGT Barry Sadler's number one hit, "The Ballad of the Green Berets." Then tell me again that Reagan invented the noble lie.

-- Mal

My experience is the same as yours. A lot of the seriously anti-war kids in my high school wore surplus military uniforms. I asked one of them about it, and he said "It's because we're the army of Peace." I never heard people dumping on the poor (drafted) grunts, but a lot of dumping on the brass and the politicians.

A priori, it always seemed illogical to me that anti-war protesters would blame the victims to begin with. But human behavior is not always rational.

-- Mal

Though nobody can deny it happened to some, though.

However, he failed to find reporting of such incidents.

That doesn't mean it NEVER happened. We just don't know -- but it's widely believed to have happened DESPITE a lack of evidence and because of repetition by those who found the meme useful.

If I remember correctly, the only spitting Lembcke found in contemporaneous news reports was done by hardhats (construction workers) to protestors.

Another book on the subject was written more recently, but I can't remember the name of it.

the feminists that are all singed from burning their bras.

You know that this is really why we are in a world of shit today, the authoritarians can never accept the idea that somebody might just say no and deny their imagined authoritah. They fixate on what someone, somewhere might be doing that they don't approve of and it preys on their little minds until they go completely insane.

was the biggest liar and manipulator in that office, so i didn't believe her story (though i kept my mouth shut & acted like i did).

I have always found it amusingly ironic that movie was one of the first places this myth began.

any spitting on returning vets in it (or calling returning vets 'baby killers').

Been quite awhile since I've seen it, though.

The only place to land for many veterans was the street and they landed hard.

This 2007 post by Digby at Hullabaloo (an army brat) is relevant to this discussion.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/loudmouths-by-digby-following-up-on-his.html

The first I heard of returning soldiers being spat on was during the Reagan administration.
As others have pointed out, anyone spitting on someone just fresh from combat would have provoked a strong, even newsworthy, reaction.

This 'spat on a troop' is pure nonsense. I did three tours in Viet Nam and in coming and going passed through the San Francisco Airport 5 times between 1967 and 1970 - in full dress uniform each time - and never once was anyone in the least bit rude to me, neither there or the Miami, FL airport, which was my destination each time.

It never happened, not one of these spitting incidents. Anyone who tells you they were spat upon is, at least to my mind, lying to you. God only knows why, but they are lying.

and was called some pretty vile names by a small group of college aged kids. I wasn't spit on.
Calling other vets liars who claim it happened is pretty small of you, just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm sure there were isolated incidents of violence towards the returning vets but they were far and few between. Hell, it could have been RW assholes trying to make the anti war movement look bad.