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Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 05:50 PM Mar 2016

5 Obvious Pieces of Evidence that NAFTA Is Killing the US Economy

http://economyincrisis.org/content/nafta-killing-us-economy

When NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) was passed, many people feared the worst. The results have indeed been disastrous. Just look at the results:

1. The trade deficit with Mexico has exploded

2. Mexican wages remain nearly as low as they were prior to NAFTA and are still a small fraction of our average wages

3. Wealth and power has not filtered to the people. Most of Mexico is still controlled by less than 100 corporations

4. Many of our other trading partners have relocated facilities to Mexico to circumvent other trade agreements with the U.S.

5. American manufacturing has lost 3 million jobs in the past 10 years as U.S. companies have also moved to Mexico for lower
wages and lax regulations

On the basis of the one-sided disastrous results over the past 15 years, whoever advocated NAFTA seems to be either grossly negligent of their duty of representing their constituents or is simply working contrary to the best interests of this country.

The evidence was clear that NAFTA would be a disaster.
------------------------------

ANd with Hillary's full support, Wild Bill sold us out.


22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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5 Obvious Pieces of Evidence that NAFTA Is Killing the US Economy (Original Post) Ferd Berfel Mar 2016 OP
And how is it AA voting for Hillary don' t see the connection ? orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #1
Maybe they aren't Nationalists. Hoyt Mar 2016 #2
The tractor was one of the greatest job killers bhikkhu Mar 2016 #5
I do think we need to figure out a way to provide for those whose jobs Hoyt Mar 2016 #8
That's Bullshit, they are the apparatus that devalues all Skills & Trade, and Who's going to figure orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #9
Then fine, you better have some land and learn how to grow your on food, build shelter, provide Hoyt Mar 2016 #12
Fear & Hate & Greed orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #15
The US is one of the least trade-dependant nations in the world bhikkhu Mar 2016 #13
Those are examples progress replacing jobs. angstlessk Mar 2016 #14
The point is that those jobs were already being replaced by machines bhikkhu Mar 2016 #17
There is a solution, and it is taking place as we speak angstlessk Mar 2016 #20
Not at that rate, and the 1% invented the TPP because of NAFTA . Who are the most effected ? orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #7
Short-term, those who prefer to gripe rather than adapt. Long-term we Hoyt Mar 2016 #10
People are voting for my candidate, Lobbyists are voting for yours, adapt . orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #11
Right, learn to live in a hovel angstlessk Mar 2016 #16
Ah, America First, screw the rest of the world, Nationalism. Hoyt Mar 2016 #19
America was supposed to be a "shining city upon a hill" angstlessk Mar 2016 #21
Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians And Media That Own And Control Us cantbeserious Mar 2016 #3
+ 1000000000000 !!!!!!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Mar 2016 #6
Obvious, unless they aren't actually true bhikkhu Mar 2016 #4
KnR Dont call me Shirley Mar 2016 #18
Trump wants to build a huuuuge wall to keep out Mexicans. The left can share the cost to keep out pampango Mar 2016 #22

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
5. The tractor was one of the greatest job killers
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:38 PM
Mar 2016

...and all of its further developments. For a time 50% of the US workforce had reliable farm employment, then along came mechanization. Other sectors have similarly fallen - such as the vast numbers of switchboard operator jobs now gone, and the legions of bookkeepers and so forth mowed down by the rise of computers.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
8. I do think we need to figure out a way to provide for those whose jobs
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:43 PM
Mar 2016

become obsolete. It's just going to get worse. Trading among ourselves isn't the solution, it's just not that simple. NAFTA, TPP, etc., are just something to focus our anger on.

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
9. That's Bullshit, they are the apparatus that devalues all Skills & Trade, and Who's going to figure
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:49 PM
Mar 2016

a tribunal of opportunists who will make deals with other opportunists, and that Hillary mentality " It's just going to get worse " is getting a little beat .

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
12. Then fine, you better have some land and learn how to grow your on food, build shelter, provide
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:54 PM
Mar 2016

your on medical care, etc.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
13. The US is one of the least trade-dependant nations in the world
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:57 PM
Mar 2016
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TG.VAL.TOTL.GD.ZS

only about 23% of our GDP has to do with trade with other countries, versus a norm of about 40% for the rest of the world. Which is to say, we are one of the most self-sufficient countries.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
14. Those are examples progress replacing jobs.
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:02 PM
Mar 2016

NAFTA did not replace jobs, it sent jobs to countries where there was little regulation and the pay minuscule.

Did the PRICES of those components come down due to the savings of corporate America, NO!

So, basically the only beneficiary of the job flight was the bottom line of corporations, and lining the pockets of the CEO's et al.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
17. The point is that those jobs were already being replaced by machines
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:09 PM
Mar 2016

Estimates are that for every job lost to conventional outsourcing, ten jobs have been lost to mechanization. And in many cases the jobs outsourced have subsequently been lost anyway to mechanization; first a move to cheap labor, then the cheap labor being replaced by machines.

Again, not in every individual case, but in the bigger picture.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
20. There is a solution, and it is taking place as we speak
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:26 PM
Mar 2016

Births have declined for three consecutive years, and are now 7% below the peak in 2007

Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world#Age_structure

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
7. Not at that rate, and the 1% invented the TPP because of NAFTA . Who are the most effected ?
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:42 PM
Mar 2016

The top of the 1% and the bottom of the 99%, that's not being a Nationalist, that's a Fact .

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
10. Short-term, those who prefer to gripe rather than adapt. Long-term we
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:50 PM
Mar 2016

better figure out a pact that leverages government, corporations, and workers to compete worldwide, or it will get worse. We live in a big world and better come to grips with that rather than acting like Nationalist xenophobes who blame groups of people for not voting for your candidate.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
21. America was supposed to be a "shining city upon a hill"
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 07:34 PM
Mar 2016

remember ronny?

We were to be an example of what was right for other countries?

Now that has been turned on it's wee little head..we have to compete with the poorest and most disenfranchised people on the planet. As each country demands more, 'they' simply find another to exploit, and claim we need to emulate 'their' work force!

Of course with TPP it becomes the law of the land...a corporation can sue America's minimum wage, cause it diminishes the profits a corporation could make otherwise.

cantbeserious

(13,039 posts)
3. Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians And Media That Own And Control Us
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:09 PM
Mar 2016

Until this changes - nothing else matters - Feel The Bern.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
4. Obvious, unless they aren't actually true
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 06:29 PM
Mar 2016

Has our trade deficit with Mexico "exploded"? I've been unable to find any source for that. Typically we've run a surplus rather than a deficit, the current surplus being driven largely by a lack of Mexican oil exports to the US.

Mexico certainly has problems, but http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/11/13/mexico-middle-class-grows-over-past-decade suggests they have been improving. In an OP about NAFTA killing the US economy, I'm not sure why point #2 is about wages in Mexico, or whether rising wages indicate a problem more than stagnant wages. In any case, current problems in Mexico have more to due with collapsing petroleum prices than NAFTA.

Again, not sure what the number of large corporations in Mexico has to do with killing the US economy or NAFTA. Would 200 corporations be better, or 1000? In modern states economic activity tends to be represented by corporate activity. If economies transitioned to patchworks of small businesses and small producers (however that may be done), what would stop successful small businesses from getting bigger, buying up competitors, and becoming large corporations all over again?

On #4, is that a bad thing? What trade agreements do we have that need to be circumvented by relocation to Mexico? Not sure of the point being made.

On #5, the question would be how many manufacturing jobs would be lost if there were no NAFTA. There certainly have been many, but the far greater driver of manufacturing job losses has always been technology and automation. This was well under way, well known and predicted back in the 90's. It was one reason for the push toward service sector employment growth, which worked reasonably well. In any case, the balance of job loss and job creation related to NAFTA has been extensively studied and argued ( http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/nafta-20-years-later-benefits-outweigh-costs/ for some debate) and its complex, but hardly a disaster on the whole.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
22. Trump wants to build a huuuuge wall to keep out Mexicans. The left can share the cost to keep out
Sun Mar 6, 2016, 08:21 PM
Mar 2016

Mexican stuff. Assuming we cannot help Donald convince Mexico to pay for the wall that is.

Simply withdrawing from NAFTA and going back to WTO rules for US-Mexico trade (tariffs were just 4% before NAFTA) won't help. Frustration will build again to "do something about Mexico" and we will have to withdraw from the WTO and build a wall. Might as well go ahead while Trump's wall is a hot idea.

Two major concepts define the political struggle in the west today. One can be termed “globalism”, which is currently most prominently represented by the German chancellor, Angela Merkel. The other is “territorialism”, a view that the very likely Republican candidate for the US elections in November, Donald Trump, represents. At the core of the debate is the meaning of borders: should they be porous or tightly controlled? Are they mainly an obstacle to the free and productive flow of ideas, people, goods and information and should therefore be largely dismantled? Or are massive borders welcome and indispensable as a protection against all kinds of real or perceived threats such as competition and terrorism?

For globalists such as Merkel, interconnectedness is a good thing because it is what drives progress towards more prosperity and freedom everywhere. For territorialists such as Trump, interconnectedness is mainly a threat. What is good and healthy is attributed to the natives and what is dangerous comes from outside: unfair Chinese competition, dangerous Mexican immigrant ...

Territorialists, by contrast, don’t believe in international and transnational institutions ...


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/06/donald-trump-angela-merkel-territorial-global-ulrich-speck

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