General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow the world is divided between fear (Trump/Cruz, Le Pen) and openness (Merkel, Hillary/Bernie).
Two major concepts define the political struggle in the west today. One can be termed globalism, which is currently most prominently represented by the German chancellor, Angela Merkel. The other is territorialism, a view that the very likely Republican candidate for the US elections in November, Donald Trump, represents. At the core of the debate is the meaning of borders: should they be porous or tightly controlled? Are they mainly an obstacle to the free and productive flow of ideas, people, goods and information and should therefore be largely dismantled? Or are massive borders welcome and indispensable as a protection against all kinds of real or perceived threats such as competition and terrorism?For globalists such as Merkel, interconnectedness is a good thing because it is what drives progress towards more prosperity and freedom everywhere. For territorialists such as Trump, interconnectedness is mainly a threat. What is good and healthy is attributed to the natives and what is dangerous comes from outside: unfair Chinese competition, dangerous Mexican immigrants and Middle Eastern terrorists.
Globalists want to manage the cross-border streams and minimise the disruptive character of borders to maximise the gains from connected markets and societies. Of course those streams have to be managed and this is why governance cannot any more be limited to the national territory. Governments need to co-operate and set up regional and global institutions; they need to set rules and make sure that these rules are upheld. Globalists argue among themselves about how to police the wider spaces but not about the principle.
Territorialists (like Trump), by contrast, dont believe in international and transnational institutions they believe in national strength and power. Donald Trump wants to invest in the US military so that its so big and strong and so great that nobodys going to mess with us. The world outside the borders is anarchical and dangerous and the way to deal with threats is to fight them by using force. Bomb the shit out of Isis, Trump said. Europe has its own share of territorialists, who share many of Trumps views. Marine Le Pen in France, leader of the Front National, stands a good chance of winning the first round of next years French presidential elections. Then theres Viktor Orban, prime minister of Hungary, who rose to international prominence by making the case for illiberal democracy ... they attribute everything positive to the natives and everything negative to those beyond the borders.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/06/donald-trump-angela-merkel-territorial-global-ulrich-speck
To some extent it is just an updated version of the ol' "Liberals build bridges; conservatives build walls". Conservatives have long depended on fear to win elections; building walls feed into this. Liberals have played down fear and played up 'we're all in this together'; building bridges feeds into this.
scioto99
(71 posts)Because I'm not in kindergarten.
The world is a complicated place. Just about every action has both good and bad effects - as does every inaction.
pampango
(24,692 posts)We end up somewhere in between - and complain about those who have not ended up with the same "somewhere in between" policy position that we settled on.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)The (Clinton GE) slogan is Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid, said Paul Begala, who is an adviser to the pro-Clinton super PAC Priorities USA.
Sounds like fear to me. Lol.
pampango
(24,692 posts)side and what they would do to American society.
I hope and expect that Bernie, as our nominee, will not ignore the damage that Trump, Cruz or whoever the GOP comes up with would inflict on us (there is a little 'fear' in that, I suppose), though Bernie will have more of a more open and positive (hence 'liberal') message to go with that.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)There's zero plans by Clinton to push her "no we can't" policies. She's already told her base that the best anyone under her is incrementalism, which won't motivate anyone.
So they've had to develop a strategy to motivate the left, and that is fear.
You see it parroted here on a daily basis. Whoa is me, the sky is falling, America will be destroyed, etc etc...
If all you have is fear, you won't have my vote. Negative partisanship is a huge depressor of turnout, if that's all you've got.
Offer something or you'll win nothing
moonbabygo
(281 posts)unfortunately
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)Because we're obsessed with pandering to our own emotions.
It's the same reason people sell products with "lifestyle" instead of quality or value.
"This can of coke will make me popular"
Its all due to basic failings in the wiring of humanity. Lol. Well. That's a bit much, but... People in PR know that pushing people's emotional buttons shuts off their logic... It's why people destroy their lives for drugs... We are born to be addicted to out emotions. Even fear. Especially fear probably.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Being an American doesn't make you special. It doesn't guarantee a living wage. It doesn't guarantee vacations. It doesn't even guarantee human rights. The Constitution really is just a piece of paper, no more authoritative or real than the Bible. It's all in our heads.
Everyone has a little globalist and territorialist in them, neither one is inherently better or worse than the other, everyone likes to play to fear, and everyone switches back and forth depending on the issue that they agree or disagree with.
pampango
(24,692 posts)I think most liberals tend towards 'building bridges' and most conservatives tend towards 'building walls', but few of us are 'pure' conservative or liberal in the bridges vs walls debate.
Can't agree there. Too many of our problems today are global in nature - climate change, poverty, war, disease, etc. Many years ago, when transportation and communications were more limited, a country could function as an 'island'. We can't do that anymore.
Surely true but conservatives seem to have little else to offer than fear of 'the OTHER' (gays, minorities, Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese, etc.) Modern liberals, particularly in Europe and Canada but here too, have positive messages of inclusion and power to the 99%.
Agreed. None of us are permanently on one end of the 'bridges vs walls' spectrum. (I'm not as sure that conservatives are not routinely pegged on the 'walls' side of that spectrum, however.) Again I think liberals tend towards a 'bridges' preference but can become a 'walls' person "depending on the issue".
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Can't agree there. Too many of our problems today are global in nature - climate change, poverty, war, disease, etc. Many years ago, when transportation and communications were more limited, a country could function as an 'island'. We can't do that anymore.
They're global in nature because of...globalism. The constant interconnecting of things, for thousands and thousands of years now, has created the problem that we seek to fix with more of the same. That's how things work though. Every solution we think we've come up with creates the new environment for problems we think we can solve. We try and save as many lives as we can, through medicine, food, etc, and then we end up with 7+ billion people, who all now have to be fed, and kept healthy, which requires ever more resources, which helps to amplify our environmental issue like climate change and the like.
Surely true but conservatives seem to have little else to offer than fear of 'the OTHER' (gays, minorities, Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese, etc.) Modern liberals, particularly in Europe and Canada but here too, have positive messages of inclusion and power to the 99%.
There's plenty of fear of the other to go around. The 1%, the religious, white males, the GOP, territorialists, guns, etc.
Agreed. None of us are permanently on one end of the 'bridges vs walls' spectrum. (I'm not as sure that conservatives are not routinely pegged on the 'walls' side of that spectrum, however.) Again I think liberals tend towards a 'bridges' preference but can become a 'walls' person "depending on the issue".
Right. It depends on the situation. When Columbus discovered America, and then everything that happened after that, it certainly wasn't a wall situation. Not sure if it was a bridge, but it was closer to a bridge than a wall. You could say bridges were built in order to get more people to spread west and not care if they had to take out a few people already living there. That's sort of globalism. In that case, it might have been better had the losing side built a wall. Or the whole slavery thing. Build a wall to keep the Europeans out of Africa in the first place.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)Despite all odds.
Thats HRC's hidden agenda.
pampango
(24,692 posts)The global poor have seen the lion's share of the world's income gains over the past 30 years or so. That may or may not be due to 'globalism' but we should figure it out before we return to a pre-FDR 'territorialist' world of Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover in which only the 1% benefitted in the US and globally.
Progressive countries are much more 'globalist' in outlook and they do not want "the poor everywhere to remain poor at the expense of the wealth everywhere".
Baobab
(4,667 posts)Even right wingers need to eat. SMEs are the engine of jobs for society. Globalism helps MNCs at the expense of SMEs. Same with LDC elites, Globalism helps LDCs elites at the expense of the professional class in developed countries - who they frame as "professional protectionists" .
Baobab
(4,667 posts)which encapsulates the tradeoffs - Not so good for Democrats in the US to have the rug pulled out from under them on wages!
Baobab
(4,667 posts)You have it completely backwards. The tiny sliver of the wealthiest have seen the lions share of income gains.
Your friends agenda- to loot the modest gains of the struggling middle class here and give them to the middle class in other countries to prolong the corruption deserves rejection.
pampango
(24,692 posts)http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/01/recent-history-in-one-chart/
"The tiny sliver of the wealthiest" (really the top 0.1%) have indeed seen obscene income gains. That does not change the fact that the poorest 75% have seen the lion's share of income gains overall. I think we all would like to see taxing of the top 1% with their gains redistributed to those in need. I do not, however, begrudge the poorest 75% their income gains over the past 25 years.
Angel Martin
(942 posts)joshcryer
(62,277 posts)But I have no qualms giving you a rec. Will read when I wake up. That you've got the responses you have, only confirms my interest.