Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,184 posts)
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:38 AM May 2016

This week I'm struggling with the whole "humans are decent at heart" concept.

You have George Zimmerman selling off a gun he used to murder an unarmed teenager, then you have those lacrosse douchebags in Michigan sacrificing a guinea pig before a game, and of course you have Donald Trump and everything and everyone that surrounds and supports Donald Trump and gives cause for Donald Trump to be who Donald Trump is.

Honestly, I usually subscribe to Anne Frank's famous take on human nature. I like to see the positive in everyone, even the highly flawed folks. It's why I'm so vehemently against the death penalty. But damn, this week's been a bit challenging for my core principles.

32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
This week I'm struggling with the whole "humans are decent at heart" concept. (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti May 2016 OP
Perhaps I can help. Wilms May 2016 #1
It's a start. Tommy_Carcetti May 2016 #2
I'd even go so far as to say "most people are good at heart." Nitram May 2016 #18
I too want to believe in the goodness of humanity notadmblnd May 2016 #3
There are 7+ billion people on the planet The2ndWheel May 2016 #4
Humans are persuadable at heart. cali May 2016 #5
We all make mistakes and we are all products of our environmental upbringing. Festivito May 2016 #6
It means he repeatedly does shitty things with no apparent remorse. cali May 2016 #9
Yes he does. Festivito May 2016 #11
I tend not to focus on labeling, but you threw out an absurd red herring. cali May 2016 #12
I do not know which of what I said is considered the absurd red herring. eom Festivito May 2016 #17
I think he's a very bad human being. Tommy_Carcetti May 2016 #14
I understand Human hearts with BBQ sauce are quite decent. Katashi_itto May 2016 #7
Look simply at the deathrind May 2016 #8
This should help clear up your quandry. Katashi_itto May 2016 #10
Humans are just a bunch of clever and dangerous apes. FLPanhandle May 2016 #13
If humans were inherently scumbags and assholes, there would not be so many of us. rug May 2016 #15
"The wider it is, the healthier the society." The2ndWheel May 2016 #22
Humans can be disgusting angrychair May 2016 #16
Cheer up. rug May 2016 #19
aw... renate May 2016 #27
I appreciate the video angrychair May 2016 #29
Morals and ethics exist nowhere but inside the human imagination The2ndWheel May 2016 #23
Humans are decent, but weak. It's something we can all improve on. Brickbat May 2016 #20
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2016 #21
Turn off the news Egnever May 2016 #24
Gosh, it would be nice to believe that angrychair May 2016 #31
Sparse list of issues to set you off. Work on not being so fragile. Bonx May 2016 #25
Har de har. Tommy_Carcetti May 2016 #26
people indeed can be cruel KT2000 May 2016 #28
Finally, your a Clinton Supporter. Don't worry about any of this. Katashi_itto May 2016 #30
Some are, some are not, and some become flexible when pressured. nt bemildred May 2016 #32

Nitram

(22,822 posts)
18. I'd even go so far as to say "most people are good at heart."
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:55 AM
May 2016

I've lived all over the world and it seem true to me. But even the good at heart can apparently become monsters. Rwanda, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, Bosnia/Serbia, etc.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
3. I too want to believe in the goodness of humanity
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:52 AM
May 2016

But there's some real pond scum out there that unfortunately grabs all the attention and give the rest of us a bad name.

In the end, all I can say is that mankind has some fucked up priorities.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
4. There are 7+ billion people on the planet
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:55 AM
May 2016

Humans are going to be a lot of things. Pretty much anyone you could think of, chances are there's probably at least one of them out there.

Maybe a little odd that this week, and these few examples, in the relatively long history of human society, is what will challenge your principles, but ok. Like I'm sure you could go back to last week and find a few stories around the world that could do the same. Or the week before that. Or the week before that. Or the week before that. Maybe not the week before that, but certainly the week before that.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
6. We all make mistakes and we are all products of our environmental upbringing.
Thu May 12, 2016, 09:58 AM
May 2016

It's easier to judge in black and white distinctions: Good person, bad person. We want to make our world easier to navigate.

What does it mean if one calls George bad. Does it mean that his desire to patrol his neighborhoods is bad. Is anyone donating time to patrol neighborhoods bad? Should people who are want-to-be cops not be allowed to donate patrolling time?

It's harder to come up with a place in our minds for persons like George and for George himself.

It is hard work, but, hard work is usually rewarded with luck.

Good luck.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
9. It means he repeatedly does shitty things with no apparent remorse.
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:06 AM
May 2016

Like killing Martin. Pulling guns on people and exploiting killing Martin.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
11. Yes he does.
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:09 AM
May 2016

And, if your it means bad, that makes it easier for you to place him for your way of thinking. Hope it works well for you.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,184 posts)
14. I think he's a very bad human being.
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:16 AM
May 2016

Much like I think people like Dick Cheney and Donald Trump are very bad human beings.

I try to draw a subtle distinction between very bad human beings and someone being "pure evil" or a "monster." I don't think "pure evil" can be embodied in a person, but I do think they can be subsumed by evil in their motives and intents. And that's where I'd place people like Zimmerman or Trump or Cheney. Or the very worst of the worst, genocidal maniacs like Hitler and Stalin.

Occasionally--like this week--the line gets blurred, but I just have to try and distance myself objectively. It's not always easy.

deathrind

(1,786 posts)
8. Look simply at the
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:01 AM
May 2016

History of the human species and that should clear up any lingering or future struggles you may have concerning that concept.

...

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
13. Humans are just a bunch of clever and dangerous apes.
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:11 AM
May 2016

We the potential to suppress the worst of ourselves by a thin veneer of civilization, education, and conditioning.

Humans never disappoint me, they do sometimes surprise me with their ability to overcome a selfish animal nature though.

I look at the good as hope that, if the species survives, it could get better.





 

rug

(82,333 posts)
15. If humans were inherently scumbags and assholes, there would not be so many of us.
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:24 AM
May 2016

We would not have survived.

Viciousness, selfishness, and domination are inherently destructive.

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that humans are inherently cooperative, not competitive. The trick is how wide the circle of cooperation is. The wider it is, the healthier the society.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
22. "The wider it is, the healthier the society."
Thu May 12, 2016, 11:55 AM
May 2016

And the more damage we can do to anything non-human.

The only thing inherent in humans is adaptability. Well, can't even really go that far. Some people don't adapt well to anything, while other might adapt to this, but not that, or maybe that but not this. We can be competitive, or cooperative, depending on the context of a situation. Or, some people are competitive, or cooperative, no matter the situation.

We're all over the place.

angrychair

(8,702 posts)
16. Humans can be disgusting
Thu May 12, 2016, 10:36 AM
May 2016

No way to sugar coat it. As much as I would have liked, I've never had any faith in humanity. I do what I can with what I got. I'm an atheist so no heaven or hell, just life. We are what we are. We can attempt to glorify ourselves, romanticize ourselves or fictionalize ourselves but we are no more or less than the brutal, nasty beast we have always been. We are no better or worse morally or ethically, than any other animal on this planet.

renate

(13,776 posts)
27. aw...
Thu May 12, 2016, 12:46 PM
May 2016

The part with the hurt dog was really sad, but its friend was so devoted and sweet. I don't know how some people think animals aren't sentient beings.

angrychair

(8,702 posts)
29. I appreciate the video
Thu May 12, 2016, 01:06 PM
May 2016

But don't misinterpret my point. Though some take may take it as "negative" or "sad" I really don't mean it that way. It's just realistic. It is not meant to be positive or negative.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
23. Morals and ethics exist nowhere but inside the human imagination
Thu May 12, 2016, 11:57 AM
May 2016

At least human morals and ethics anyway.

Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Original post)

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
24. Turn off the news
Thu May 12, 2016, 12:02 PM
May 2016

Go out into the real world. You will find all of a sudden all of that garbage disappears and suddenly the vast majority of the people you deal with are decent.

angrychair

(8,702 posts)
31. Gosh, it would be nice to believe that
Thu May 12, 2016, 01:22 PM
May 2016

As much as I wish it were true, it just is not. I told my teenager just yesterday, "deal with with ever stranger you meet as if they are trying to fuck you over or kill you because they are".

No matter how good or kind a person seems to be, if it comes down to them getting an advantage over you in something that benefits them, You will always lose.
From the pope and pedophile priests to Democrats and "free stuff" memes that work to their personal or political issues advantage.


I would like to make very clear that is not how I operate but that sense of morals and ethics has worked against me in life. I would not change my own actions and reactions to situations but it also does not change how the world works either. The vast majority of human beings on earth work on a "me first" principle and have since the the very second human beings came into existence.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,184 posts)
26. Har de har.
Thu May 12, 2016, 12:14 PM
May 2016

Yeah, I'm just cowering in the corner here.

I think you totally missed the point of what I was saying.

Shaking one's head in disgust is not the same as being "fragile".

KT2000

(20,584 posts)
28. people indeed can be cruel
Thu May 12, 2016, 12:47 PM
May 2016

and at this time, there seems to be more tolerance for it. The supporters are there for it on the internet so it is constantly fed and rationalized.
Some are decent at heart and some are not.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»This week I'm struggling ...