Sad, but true.

If not, absent free or at least debt-free higher education, sufficient good paying, dignified jobs with benefits such that "volunteering" is no longer so attractive to so many people, how do you see down-sizing the military to an actual "defense" function occurring?

Where does the political will come from?

You compared people who want a Trump presidency to get the revolution rolling to people who are opposed to a draft. Or did I misunderstand?

who wants to bring back the draft to spur a revolution? The point of a draft is every family is on the line for defense decisions, unlike now where largely -- not only but largely -- the relatively less-well-off-financially are attracted to the benefits of serving in the military.

We don't want any part of it.

our current system lures the economically disenfranchised to do the task while insulating everyone else. Is that acceptable?

people that support that are okay with the most vulnerable amoung us being the sacrifice.

But I really think its few and far between who actually want to see Trump elected to get the revolution rolling. There are many on the other hand who won't vote for Hillary or Trump -- and understand the consequences.

It seems unfair to blame people who can't find it within themselves to vote for more corporatism, more American imperialism, for the potential outcomes of this election. Try as those who would blame might, it doesn't stick.

I would suggest that those who are truly afraid of the outcome of a Trump election should take more responsibility for their own fears perhaps.

are just some of those who have no patience for the kind of fuckwittery that is "let's burn the village and hope candidate X saves it."

You created a ridiculous metaphor.

It's obvious why.

Do you think the first part - "let Trump win, to bring on the revolution" - is a good idea?

... to see the wrecks"

But "it's her turn" and "neo-cons in neon" aren't persuasive either.

eom

low information die hard Faux News/Rushbo Republicans.

...that there's a whole lot of people who will be going into the voting booth figuring that if they can't find a lever that will help fix things, they'll pull the lever that will break everything.

On edit: saw this after I wrote the post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/from-belief-to-resentment-in-indiana/2016/05/14/d1642222-16fa-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_huntington-810pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

nothing to lose in their opinion. They want change, so many will likely fall into the category that drastic change is better than likely none or minimal.

2016 is going to be extremely close. Now, I notice TPTB in the GOP are starting to cater to Trump. The GOP establishment is toothless, they can't hold him back. To me, TPTB in the democratic party lost the opportunity to channel this fear and aggression of many in the populace into the democratic party for a 2016 WH win. Now, it will probably be "iffy" if the democratic party can gallantly win the WH in 2016.

I have that same "bad feeling..."

for getting the country to where they think it should be in the wake of a Trump presidency. "Pitchforks" is not a plan in any reality that sensible people inhabit. Their only "plan" seems to be to throw the country against the wall, break it into pieces, and then hope those pieces re-assemble themselves into something better. Batshit insane is a nice way of describing that notion.

You see it frequently on RW blogs and forums where they greatly over-estimate the conservatism of the country and think that a true conservative will win in a landslide. See it also in the writings and statements of Tim McVeigh and other self-styled 'patriots' like the Bundy gang.

They are deluded on two points:

1) Trump is not a true conservative. He is just plain not true or he is only true to himself. Now he says his promises are only "suggestions".

2) The USA is not very conservative.

How many democrats/liberals actually feel empathy for/with republican/conservatives either? If we're going by the strict and neutral definition of empathy. Not feeling sorry for them that they're stupid, wrong, and easily led, but actually empathizing with them.

I would say, since each of only has access to our own mind, that we all think we're right. A true conservative, liberal, libertarian, constitutionalist, socialist, communist, capitalist, whatever, could win in a landslide, if only whatever idea we have was implemented truly, completely, and down to its very essence. Everyone would then agree that what I think is right, is right. If only that idea had a chance.

It's rather like how atheists know more about some religions than the believers of the religions, for example the average 'christian' American and christianity.

Very few Democrats think every election that "if only a true -- insert 'progressive' / 'liberal' / 'socialist' -- were running we'd win in a landslide. And yet you see the mirror image of that believed whole-heartedly on the conservative blogs / forums.

I wanted to understand their mindset, so I studied it and read up and thought about it.

It turns out that the Right Wing Authoritarian Follower mindset shares with our mindset a strong belief in Family Values, Justice, and Truth. This is measurable and documented.

But one way they depart is that they are much more likely to hold to simple solutions, to binary thinking. They like and expect complex issues to be boiled down to basic yes / no or for / against terms. One of the most famous statements of Republicans during the Bush years was "we don't do nuance". Similarly they said "We make our own reality".

We understand that people face adversity in life and can use a helping hand at times. Hence welfare and disaster relief and agendas for student loan relief and Obamacare and many more points.

On the conservative side there is much less empathy. It is much more a case of "I've got my stack. Hands off, Jack!".

Hence the constant reference to "welfare queens" and Obamaphones and "government handouts".
Hence the constant attempts to reduce school lunches and breakfasts, to raise tuition rates, to cut away social programs, close libraries. repeal Obamacare, and many more.

Search for the On A Plate graphic strip that shows this very clearly in terms we empathize with and they don't.

"don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

people who want to repeal the ACA and replace it with "something," as yet undefined.

you can kiss any chance of restoring this country back to the representative government it was before the 3rd way neolibs took over the party goodbye!

And then there WILL be a Revolution!

If we can't win the vote, how the fuck are we going to win a revolution?

Finding out you're now a registered republican.

It's funny that it only happens to sanders supporters. And you bet your ass we're going to overcome that. This fight is only beginning. You can sit and wring your hands, or roll up your sleeves and help us get to work.

Nope.
And, really, this crap can't wait until after the convention?

I consider it stupid to support a Third Way Wall Street-beholden hawk, and expect things to get better for ordinary citizens.
Monumentally stupid. So the opinions of those who do support that are meaningless, really.

...I'm no Hillary fan, but that's absolute crazy talk. And I stick by my original, objective response. eom

None of this is germane to any damned thing until during or after the convention. Right now, it is just, to use an old and quite apt saying - stirring shit.

....either they're willfully ignoring or simply don't give a shit about the millions who would be seriously hurt by the wreckage of a Trump presidency. It's easy to say one has to break a few eggs to bring on revolution...unless it's one's own eggs that get broken. Idiots.

The people who are supporting Trump have already had their eggs broken!

Faux News/Rushbo have simply convinced them that the Clintons are corportatist free-trade champions (oh, yeah, they are) and that its all the Ds fault for pushing socialism/communism and giving all those lazy poor people free stuff.

They got nothing to lose.

"they" are some Bernie supporters who believe if Bernie's revolution can't be birthed by his nomination than it can be birthed by another means....ie. the utter disaster of a Trump presidency. And it doesn't seem to matter to them if people get hurt in the process. Evidence of such thinking? Other than those I know personally who have espouse such idiocy...I give you Susan Sarandon...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/29/susan-sarandon-trump-might-be-better-for-america-than-hillary-clinton.html


I'm as much a Bernie supporter as anyone, but thinking like that is just fucking crazy.

You are equating rejecting Hillary to supporting Trump. That's bullshit. The people supporting Trump are the disenfranchised formerly or threatened middle class FauxNews/Rushbo dimwits, not progressives or liberals.

I refuse to acknowledge and accept any blame for my choice not to support Hillary. If that puts me in the Trump supporter category in your mind, then I question your integrity.

... and principle - but I'm having difficulty reconciling any suggestion that true progressives stay home or vote third party candidates in Nov.

That WILL help facilitate a Trump victory. Even if you are in a safe state where your individual vote won't necessarily matter either way, the simple fact that people advocate such a tactic may influence others who are in a position to cast very meaningful votes. That causes me genuine concern.

I suspect this general will be closer than any here predict. Every vote will count. Any call for progressives to abandon the party in Nov could have very real and very catastrophic consequences for many Americans who are least able to endure them.

I don't buy the "purity" argument, or the "we get what we deserve" argument, when the well being of others is as stake. The election parameters are what they are - no matter how we might wish or imagine otherwise- and helping the conservative cause, even indirectly, seems to lack compassion.

Playing the game the way they set it up makes us complicit. I can't do that any longer. In the words of R.L. Burnside: "Its bad you know."

... But how do you envision change to the process they set up without participating in that process so overwhelmingly that we take it over? That's what has drawn me to Bernie so strongly - the prospect of taking the damn thing back from the establishment! But even though his candidacy has been a huge step in the right direction, it looks more and more like it may come up just short this time around. That's politics, I suppose - especially anti-establishment politics since the establishment seldom crumbles overnight.

So assuming Bernie loses means we have Clinton (essentially status quo) or Trump (essentially chaos on steroids). That seems a pretty clear choice to me. Maybe if the welfare of so many were not at stake I could get behind a "let Trump get in there and burn it down so we can rebuild it" strategy, but a lot of innocents will likely burn in the fire too, and I don't feel comfortable sacrificing them for some "greater good" ideal. And note - I'm in a position to survive a meltdown - in fact, I'm a lawyer and might expect to benefit financially from a wasteland scenario. But that's a lot of hungry and homeless people without healthcare, suffering job losses and discrimination. That's real human suffering - perhaps not as dramatic as 3rd world stuff, but still very real and tangible.

I prefer playing for field position on this possession, and working to be able to score on the next. Maybe I'll convert as the game clock gets closer to 0:00, but I just don't feel it's there yet. JMHO.

They play field position to start the game, and then ball possession from then on.

I would if I were you! Nah, just kidding. If it's any consolation, the Steelers are my wife's favorite team. Of course she goes strictly on uniforms.

Please, post a link to one of these people saying a tRump win would be good for anything.

The poster didn't say anything about a revolution. Is that some way to tag that poster as a Bernie supporter routing for tRump? The closest that poster comes to anything about a revolution is the Guy Fawkes avatar they're using. They only have 5 posts in the past 90 days. Did those five posts promote a revolution? Or are you just assuming that poster is a Bernie supporter, thereby supportive of a revolution?

BTW, I don't agree with the poster about tRump should take it all. I think the damage to the repubes is being done without him having to win it all.

And it might sound like a great result, but there's an ends and means problem here.

And if the means to that end mean having a proto-fascist Narcissistic Personality Disorder headcase with zero experience in elected office, no thanks. Because that's going to be devastating to the country.

They recognize the possibility that a Trump victory would "Bring on the Revolution" faster.
The hope and results of an American political revolution are far different than the outcome of whatever Armageddon means.

Live are "ruined" every day beyond our control no matter who is in charge.

....just as long as it's YOUR life not being ruined I suppose.

curse the tide for coming in! Seems that Bern's lost to Hillary has brought out the worst in some people. "If we can't win , let cut everybody's head off"

And both parties are responsible for it continuation.
So it is likely that a Trump win will do nothing to bring on the revolution.
Things will remain the same no matter which one wins is the message we get.

Both want to see the world burn.

Well, before anyone gets all worked up, I admit maybe three or four people are that stupid, what with it being the USA and all.

will vote for Hillary in the primaries.

take more responsibility for their own fears.

Many do not want Hillary to win either.

"None of the above" is just that.

Americans will all have to live under a new president.

It will be either Trump or the Democratic nominee.

You can vote for no one. By doing so you will be helping Trump to get elected.

The fact that you are on this website is proof that you understand what not helping to beat Trump means.

You are wrong. A no vote is a no vote. It is nothing more.

I know people like you need to rationalize not voting for Clinton in any way you can, but the math is simple and undeniable. Not voting for the Democratic candidate if it is Clinton makes it more likely that Trump will win. Withholding your vote from the Democratic candidate helps Donald Trump, even if you are not voting FOR him.

I would never vote for her because she is a pos right winger.

You desperately need to rationalize doing something you know helps an ignorant, bigoted psychopath like Trump take control of the government, the military, the courts, the immigration service, everything. Just so that you can "feel good" about your vote.

Bernie Sanders has said explicitly that Hillary Clinton on her WORST day is a thousand times better than Donald Trump. Is he lying, or is he stumping for a "pos right winger"? If so, why would you support him?

...for several reasons, the primary one being the fatalistic notion of his supporters that they are about to be granted a front row seat to the Greatest Show on Earth.

Yes, very much like the NASCAR viewers who 'ooohhh' at wrecks, or the hockey fans who cheer the fights.

I believe there is a mentality in our nation right now who have been worked up into a Roman Coliseum mentality.

Ironically, I've been seeing a whole lot of overlap...

The horseshoe theory in political science asserts that rather than the far left and the far right being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear political continuum, they in fact closely resemble one another, much like the ends of a horseshoe. The theory is attributed to French writer Jean-Pierre Faye.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Link please?

I get paid $500 per post and I'm not sure if that is one I will get paid for -

BRB!

...or not? No one has time for childish games.

I don't step and fetch unless it makes me happy, enhances my personal relationships, or makes me money. So just hold your horses.

People who think always compromising, always meeting in the middle with nutbag extremists, no matter how extreme they get, is "winning"? Or those who look around at whatever "now" is, and say "good enough for me!" and steadfastly refuse any notion of improvement, as things are already "perfect"?

You decry rapid destruction. Okay, fair enough. But that's not the only threat on the horizon here.

Beware of the people who tell you "Change is good" . . . they're usually not going to be the ones suffering from it.