...you can scare more people, while ignoring root causes, getting license to peel away more peoples' rights, etc...

San Bernadino shooters spoke with ISIL directly. They had more targets lined up, the guy planned an attack years earlier and I think he went and got trained by them when he picked up his wife.

Orlando is starting to sound like the OP is portraying it, but he also "claimed" to speak to ISIL surrogates in the past. It does sound like an angry self loathing person who is using terrorism to up his grandeur.

We've just been cooperating with the shooter's self-mythologizing.

He had other targets planned, workplace was just the first one.

Classic workplace violence.

With the shooter trying to conflate it to a noble act with his presumed ISIL ideology/contacts.

Which is the issue: Deranged shooters imagining their derangement serves a higher cause than their own psychopathology (which is often the case with governments themselves, but I digress...)

Read the FBI statement and President.

I don't even need to argue, they are the authority on what happened.

...this was a workplace shooting that was conflated.

And it not only puts the shooter on a higher pedestal, in his mind, but allows our own special interests certain "benefits" to think of it as only terrorism, while ignoring the other aspects.

Could you provide me with a link to where you read this?

Thanks.

They used Whatsapp to message.

You can find the stories.

you're probably right. Still, we should not be allowing people on terrorist watch lists and no fly lists, to be purchasing weapons. Hope the Dems will use this to beat the Thuglicans over the head with it.

I don't want the government taking away rights without due process.

There needs to be a court proceeding where the accused can defend themselves before taking away rights.

I wish there half as much concern over taking away our right to vote as there is for taking away our right to own assault weapons.

if someone is arbitrarily put onto such a list, we should require the government to set forth in court the precise reasons they ended up on the list, and permit it to be challenged.

In the past, the reason has sometimes been "checked the wrong box on the form", or (from circumstantial evidence) "opposes the government position", or "is suing the government". Only the very naive think that the government doesn't sometimes use the lists to harrass opponents.

Hate crime; NOT terrorism.

. . . But then, so is racially motivated terrorism still terrorism, as in the case of the Charleston shootings. Yet the Justice Department resolutely refused to label that incident 'terrorism.' As I've stated downthread, both Orlando and Charleston meet the definition of domestic terrorism under federal law, so there's a fair argument that can be made that we should call both 'terrorism.' But applying the label selectively, using it only in those cases where the perpetrator happens to be Muslim, as both our media and government continue to do, is dishonest -- it is a tool for manipulating public hysteria and for ginning up support for our endless misadventures in the Middle East.

And worse, the whole 'terrorism' label distracts the public from discussion of one of the most obvious contributing factors to all of these incidents, namely the availability of high-capacity assault weapons.

I'm not optimistic.

His father supported the Taliban, who hate and kill gays. How could he come out in a family like that? So he was repressed because of his Father's hatred of gays...not driven by radical Islam so much as how his parents grew up...he wasn't religious, and I doubt his family was either. But I strongly believe that his family passed on their hatred of gays to him, so he hated himself and lived in a rage.

I didn't know, until now, that he frequented that club, or had a profile on a gay dating site, but I already posted my observations...that is was his family that pushed him to this, and his rage that made him beat his wife and everything.

His father has rambling youtube videos speaking out against Pakistan and in favor of Taliban. You know he had to be pretty screwed up as a kid.

I'm not saying he isn't responsible, but I put some of the blame on his family.

They cruise restrooms or pay off men they had sex with when they were kids. They vote down all bills for LGBT people. I think he had what Jung would refer to as his shadow. The Jihad was a cover for dad and wife. On the otherhand, if it was legit he may have 50 virgins. I think it is a proper Hell for him.
.

Fear + hate and this is the result. Terrorism, hate crime, two in one

deny what you want but THIS WAS A HATE CRIME BY A SELF RADICALIZED ISLAMIC TERRORIST

The guy's history of sympathizing with jihadists goes back years.

His issues with homosexuality likely made him pick his target, but the decision to attack was rooted in jihadi craziness.

where he participated,
hanging out on gay dating sites.
I believe your spot on OP,
no wonder he made a last minute call about ISIL
so he could "macho" his way out...

than die thinking he was gay.

How fucked up is that?

Pity that this serves the narrative of those who would shut our society down completely.

and they get it. So, why not take out a bunch of "heathens," and cleanse your soul at the same time? 'Trouble is, the little fuckers leave a bad odor which drifts out despite their machinations with the innertubes.

because he wanted to attack Disney World also but saw it would be difficult compared to the nightclub.

there have been closeted hypocrites that we see all the time. but to fucking murder a bunch of innocent people ?

also if he was going there because he was gay how come we haven't heard of him getting involved in any actual relationships ? maybe it's because he went there to plan his attack.

. . . Depending on someone's upbringing, culture and state of mind, people can and do act out like this. It has happened before. In the case of Upstairs Lounge, the arsonist (never arrested or convicted, but confessed to friends) was a deeply conflicted hustler, a regular at the place, who repeatedly sought "conversion" therapy to no avail. And police records around the country are full of incidents of gay bashing, in some cases ending in death, over the perception that someone is gay. And then there was Dan White's assassination of Harvey Milk and George Moscone. Not to mention Matthew Shepherd and James Byrd, Jr. in Texas (dragged to death behind a truck because he was gay). This stuff happens.

The first thought in my mind was the Upstairs Lounge. It smelled like a rejected and oppressed person getting his revenge on the world.

the attack on a lesbian club in Orlando, a man who tore up a gay bar in Roanoke, Va. from harassment for having the last name Gay, and other violent public incidents. I recall the horrible treatment that killed the man in Texas some years ago.

Thanks for adding perspectives on anger, shame and self destructive behavior and examples of the appalling violence and abuse against LGBTQ people in more recent US history. The Orlando tragedy makes us think of and miss our cherished little brother even more, a FL then NYC resident who was lost way too young. From an early age he faced adversities in life not of his making with great courage and spirit, and was one of the smartest, most secure, generous and beloved members of his family and large circle of friends.

He was dragged behind a truck because he was black. I had never heard he was gay so I did a search and didn't find anything to suggest that the Jasper killing was motivated by homophobia. But it did happen around the same time as the Matthew Shepard killing so that might be where the confusion comes in.

he had been going there for at least three years. Seems like he could've cased the joint and planned his attack in much less time.

It sounds like he visited a few dozen times over several years.

The whole bit about pledging to ISIS was one last attempt to repress and cover up his sexuality. He wasn't a radical Islamic terrorist, he was just a fucked up dude who finally exploded in rage. Terrorist watch list isn't geared to detect that.

dead? Virtually everyone who grew up in the culture your family came from treats you the same way. Where there is no such thing as the homosexual son. If the daughter does something wrong, they might kill her, but the son they would ignore, never even believing it was possible in their world. You would be dead to them - they would deny that part of you even existed, like a climate denier being drowned by a rising tide.

Outside the house it's a crap shoot as to whether you will be treated respectfully or spit on.

Conversion therapy? Great - like getting medicine from doctors that hate you.

I'm not excusing his behavior, didn't know the fella or his victims.

But I've seen a lot of pain, and I have seen this world isn't kind to certain people. Sometimes they hurt so bad they break.

We could do more for each other and lessen the possibility of such tragedies, find leaders that are interested in investing in the people.

This Be The Verse

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Philip Larkin

As for the slaughter in Orlando, there is no doubt that the man was seriously disturbed. He had a history of being a wife beater. I suspect that he was, in fact, a self-hating gay man who combined his repressed sexuality with his religion. I wonder if he was on a suicide mission and wanted to take down as many as possible of the people he hated as he hated himself. We'll probably never know exactly what he was thinking, but we sure do know the results. Horrifying!

You do not need to go twelve times to a place to "case the joint". So, no, I do not think he was going there just for that.

So I'm guessing he was cruising not casing.

A toxic stew.

Please cite an example of NRA endorsed homophobic publication? While I am sure there are both anti-homosexuals and homosexuals among the NRA's considerable membership, I don't believe I have ever seen anyone speaking for the organization advocating homophobia or violence against homosexuals.

calm down before you misread and post.

I thought my meaning was obvious... I am so reluctant to engage gun enthusiasts, because I cannot wrap my head around why anyone needs a machine gun.

The NRA was blamed for the Boston Bombing (devices constructed from Black Cat black powder firecrackers.)

However, the NRA is quite responsible for lobbying for policies that enabled Mateen to buy an assault weapon so easily.

For the Boston Bombing. This was before the killers even got a hold of gun. NRA is the all-purpose enemy in a broad culture war which extends way beyond gun control. Got a roach infestation problem? Who ya gonna call?......

My ignore list has been growing for some time for political reasons. Now it's growing for hate/bigotry/gun nuts. It's really not worth the energy to deal with some people here.

Apparently, some do not know the meaning of the word "enabled".

But as the details emerge it seems to be a bit of an abstract aspect.. Maybe we need to think about holding the people who taught him these things accountable.. Apparently his father has already come out and made some other horrible 'death to gays' comment..

I don't think there's much room for argument about where his self-loathing came from. Men speaking words from so-called holy books are a well known source of the twisted logic needed to incite people to violence, while the priests cower in their shiny towers of gold.

The words I am giving it are religious terrorism. And I think his father is a terrorist.

because in his mind he would be perceived as homosexual. Instead he dies for what he considers a "just cause"

Why the hell would he make THREE phone calls to 911 DURING the attack to claim a religious ideological justification for his acts?

It is clear from his father's podcasts that he was raised to hate gays. The whole Islamic terrorist claim was to allow him to "save face".

Sounds like he was just claiming any/every terrorist-related organization he had read about on the internet.

because this is what I concluded as well. ISIS was his cover so no one would know.

as unreliable, but a comment from 'someone' he knew that makes him gay is acceptable because it moves the responsibility of Islamic radicalization away until the next terrorist attack.

. . . and whatever a 14-year-old might or might not have said is hardly a reliable guide to his activities as a 29-year-old!

14 year olds know what they are doing.

All of them? Mateen in particular? Both my adult kids are very successful and excellent human beings - but at 14 they were KIDS...

Ask his coworkers.
Read his writings
This didnt come out of nowhere.

. . . may or may not be those he held as an adult. But even if they were, merely having such sympathies, reprehensible though they may be, is not, per se, evidence of operational ties to terrorist organizations. And reprehensible sympathies are not against the law. And even if it were, how on Earth would we ever police individual consciences?

As 14-year-olds knowing what they are doing, that is seriously debatable. Research in nueropsychology suggest that a young man's capacity for judgment doesn't fully develop until the mid-20s. But whether or not they "know what they are doing," the adolescent/pubescent brain of a 14-year-old is hardly that of a 29-year-old. I know of no one (perhaps you are an exception) whose judgment, ethics, morality, etc. wasn't significantly different at age 29 from that of their 14-year-old selves.

I think if he was "celebrating" 9/11, it was because that was what he was hearing at home. JMHO. 14-year-olds are very impressionable.

That's classic, also.

"Jihad" might have given him the idea if he could slaughter a bunch of people just like himself, he could get his ticket punched for heaven. Who knows? He despised something within himself and projected it onto women and out gays.

He has been going to this club for 3 years. That's not casing anymore. That is a vested interest. It makes me wonder if became enrage after seeing the 2 men kissing because he was infatuated with one of them and felt jilted. I guess we will never know....

but attacking an entire club full of people is something else.

I have had rejected men lash at me even though I was being as kind and sensitive as I could on establishing boundaries and not leading them on. They just could not handle the no. Some emotionally stumped, mysogynistic men are like this.

I can see him getting so frustrated with having these feelings in the first place and just wanting to tear it all down. True Islam would never condone this sort of violence so he found something to rationalize his actions. And hell, he can be a hero, too.

something of strong interest about that particular club as you say. His familiarity, possible personal anticipation and disappointment and unsubstantiated Isis affiliations might eventually come out big in the public sphere. How very tragic and painful for the innocent victims and their loved ones.

He probably witnessed it hundreds of times during the times he was at the club. He said it offended him to hide his sexuality from his father.

The question I have is did he really become radicalized and "join" ISIS or did he just say that on the phone with the police to distract from his real motives? Already the government is saying he didn't appear to have any real ties or communication with ISIS. He mentioned them and they applauded the attack but from what I am inferring from the experts, there wasn't much beyond that.

Don't take what I say about this as any kind of truth or evidence of anything. Homosexuality, psychology, terrorism, none of these are things that I am an expert in. But I will be interested to see what the FBI finds as his motivation.

... to multiple gay bars over a period of time.

Still doesn't diminish the fact that the shooter committed a horrible hate crime

. . . but elevating this to the level of an ISIS terrorist attack certainly aggrandizes it!

allows the supporters of permanent war in the political class another excuse for imperial intervention in the middle east. And they need only the FLIMSIEST of excuses anyway.

We know HE said via a call he was allied with ISIS. Could be bullshit? Of course. We also know OTHERS are making claims he was gay based on observations, and nothing is better than taking the word of others about someone's sexual orientation.

Let's be even MORE honest, let's say these RUMORS eventually have some validity, then we know this turns into a conversation about black-on-black...er...gay on gay crime, and the homophobia of the heterosexual population skates by many people.

Let's also be honest that some homophobes aren't closeted, self-loathing gays, and actually just hate-filled assholes and his trips to the club and his alleged gay dating apps were nothing more than hunting ground material; after all, who really gives a shit about gay people getting murdered?

. . . In fact, it's a product of it.

...this feeds right into heterosexual privilege (heterosexism)!

"Self-loathing" is a "gay" thing, so they don't think it is worthy of attention from them. They don't realize it is their attitudes, laws, and behaviors which feed into "self-loathing".

religion.

Hell, your whole post is spot on.

Most people.

Not everybody, but I believe most people care about it. Perhaps they don't hit a prerequisite standard of time and emotional commitment, but even among the mass of "horrible" people who call themselves "Christians", there is not a lot of support for what happened.

And not from some of what I have seen. Many are doing what they always do, make it about their pet concern. But, as a gay man, I really don't need to have someone 'splain to me how much people care about gay people...I already know the answer.

If true, it's not realistic that he went there for three years of "hunting" before taking action. Same with dating sites. He would have either been doing attacks over the years, or have struck sooner.

I am sorry, but this man was gay.


That does not make this simply a "gay on gay" crime though.

The "three years" is still unconfirmed gossip.

"I am sorry, but this man was gay."

Sure.

It is so, so much more comfortable to be downgraded to a "hate crime" or this apparent new twist of a crime motivated by self-hatred. There are organizations dedicated to wiping out homosexuals, and states actually run by such people abroad. There are ideologies being propagated in this country, including by foreigners. All that, I think, is too much for some people to look at.

They "assure" us there is NO connection, NONE WHATSOEVER, to religion, but rumors about his trolling gay bars, that is TRUTH! It is all so fucking predictable and disgusting. Even more disgusting is if one were to take trip down memory lane (advanced search) and then we will really see "truth will out!"