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babylonsister

(171,070 posts)
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:50 AM Jul 2016

Virginia Governor Bypasses Court Ruling To Help 200,000 Ex-Felons Vote

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/07/23/3801355/virginia-felon-voting-update/

Virginia Governor Bypasses Court Ruling To Help 200,000 Ex-Felons Vote

by Alice Ollstein
Jul 23, 2016 10:36 am


Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) is taking action to restore the voting rights of thousands of ex-offenders in the state after a court decision Friday put them in jeopardy. He’s getting around the Virginia Supreme Court’s ruling against him by signing 200,000 individual clemency grants to the state’s ex-offenders to ensure their right to vote in November.

In a 4 to 3 decision late Friday, the Supreme Court of Virginia stripped away the voting rights from 200,000 ex-offenders who had recently regained full civil rights through one of McAuliffe’s executive orders, effectively disenfranchising one in five of the state’s African American voters.

The court said the governor lacks the authority under the state constitution to issue a blanket rights restoration to everyone in the state with a felony record who has already served their full sentence. A study earlier this year found that the vast majority of those impacted — 80 percent — committed non-violent crimes. Most have been out of prison for more than a decade, and African Americans are disproportionately represented. Forty-six percent of the ex-offenders are black, though blacks make up less than 20 percent of the state’s population.

The non-partisan group that has for months been leading the charge on registering ex-offenders to vote, New Virginia Majority, released a statement saying the ruling “reaffirms the Commonwealth’s Jim Crow legacy,” noting that the vast majority of states restore voting rights upon release from prison.

“Excluding Virginians from the ballot, even after they’ve paid their debts to society, is a cruel, inhumane reminder of past mistakes,” said Tram Nguyen, the group’s executive director. “Importantly, today’s ruling validates entrenched interests in the Virginia General Assembly bent on silencing a large swath of Black Virginians in order to maximize their political power.”

But just hours after the decision, McAuliffe vowed to push back by signing clemency grants for the state’s ex-offenders one by one.

“The struggle for civil rights has always been a long and difficult one, but the fight goes on,” he wrote. “I remain committed to moving past our Commonwealth’s history of injustice to embrace an honest process for restoring the rights of our citizens, and I believe history and the vast majority of Virginians are on our side.”


more...

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/07/23/3801355/virginia-felon-voting-update/
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Virginia Governor Bypasses Court Ruling To Help 200,000 Ex-Felons Vote (Original Post) babylonsister Jul 2016 OP
And it'll be struck down again because the plain text of the constitution requires Press Virginia Jul 2016 #1
Is there a provision in the constitution that he can act without the legislature if they are MADem Jul 2016 #2
No. This all could have been avoided if TM had followed the constitution Press Virginia Jul 2016 #3
You, I'm afraid, are wrong. See post five. MADem Jul 2016 #8
It's not permission. It's the process according to the constitution Press Virginia Jul 2016 #10
That's right - It it NOT "permission." It says "Let us know what you have done." MADem Jul 2016 #24
If it were, the court wouldn't have struck it down Press Virginia Jul 2016 #78
Now you are convoluting. MADem Jul 2016 #86
So the insane guy should be voting, right along with the other felons currently Press Virginia Jul 2016 #91
You are way out of step with the Democratic Party on this matter. MADem Jul 2016 #105
So it was racist because of the color of the judges? Press Virginia Jul 2016 #107
The process IS clear--the governor is going to provide clemency, and MADem Jul 2016 #109
As long as he does it the correct way, I don't care. Press Virginia Jul 2016 #112
The correct way, since a partisan court interfered with him, is to sign each one and hand them out. MADem Jul 2016 #113
The partisan court came to the same conclusion Tim Kaine did in 2010 Press Virginia Jul 2016 #114
Tim Kaine knew he couldn't beat a racist court. nt MADem Jul 2016 #117
How is a practice that isn't based on race racist? And if their opinions are the same Press Virginia Jul 2016 #118
I've had about enough of your GOP talking points. nt MADem Jul 2016 #119
Funny how my views are the same as the current VP pick's with regard to this issue Press Virginia Jul 2016 #120
No, they aren't. nt MADem Jul 2016 #124
Really? Tim Kaine, the SCOVA and I have all said the governor doesn't have the Press Virginia Jul 2016 #126
me too SheriffBob Jul 2016 #138
EarlG has done us all a great service. nt MADem Jul 2016 #141
Where does it say the actions are not valid until presented? It doesn't. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2016 #127
If they are not presented then the process has not been fulfilled Press Virginia Jul 2016 #128
didn't think he had it in him. Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #13
so....200000 secondsx10 seconds, divided by 3600=how many hours? Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #6
What a loon! All that, over being named a "CNN CONTRIBUTOR?" MADem Jul 2016 #12
I don't have anything else to do....just waiting to change my sprinkler locations Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #16
Quack PAC--LOL!!!! nt MADem Jul 2016 #37
I've signed a lot of documents. My rate is 25 per minute. n/t Scruffy1 Jul 2016 #62
Does that require someone to challenge each individual case in court, though? spooky3 Jul 2016 #4
His "experts" assured him his first attempt was constitutional Press Virginia Jul 2016 #14
Did you read the article? spooky3 Jul 2016 #18
The only black and white that matters is what the plain text of what the constitution says Press Virginia Jul 2016 #20
And it has been quoted, and it is clear as a bell, yet you keep ignoring it. MADem Jul 2016 #25
Too hard by half...his/her "resistance" is showing. LOL! Surya Gayatri Jul 2016 #99
But he knows history and stuff. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2016 #129
Good gravy--all you need is a wagging finger to go with! LOL! nt MADem Jul 2016 #130
so what? have you heard of Bush v. gore? Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #29
I stand with the constitutional process requiring individual orders Press Virginia Jul 2016 #34
This restores rights to people who have DISCHARGED their debt to society. MADem Jul 2016 #41
that non anwer told us all we need to know Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #44
Yes. I don't understand support for disenfranchisement. It's wrong. nt MADem Jul 2016 #47
They had their rights revoked after getting due process. They aren't owed anything Press Virginia Jul 2016 #81
Are you serious? MADem Jul 2016 #104
I don't take marching orders from any party. You want your rights back, earn them Press Virginia Jul 2016 #106
The rational mind concludes the rights have indeed, been earned back LanternWaste Jul 2016 #143
I guess the ones who were found to be currently in prison Press Virginia Jul 2016 #77
please cite legitimate and reliable sources, and name those individuals referenced in your post. niyad Jul 2016 #56
where did it go? unsupported assertions remind you of similar discussion tactics? Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #58
oh dear, was it something I said? I know, it is so hard for some to understand that we niyad Jul 2016 #60
didn't mean for you to think it was you to whom I referred. Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #61
not to worry, I knew who you meant. niyad Jul 2016 #63
Here Press Virginia Jul 2016 #69
from the article niyad Jul 2016 #70
Yeah...if it hadn't been looked into by WaPo Press Virginia Jul 2016 #73
Their slip is showing, that's for sure RonniePudding Jul 2016 #64
Nope. Just want it to be done in accordance wity Press Virginia Jul 2016 #74
Righhhhht RonniePudding Jul 2016 #79
If it had been done the correct way, I wouldn't have a problem with it Press Virginia Jul 2016 #82
The constitution doesn't require the legislature to be in session for him to act Major Nikon Jul 2016 #5
"At each regular session" Press Virginia Jul 2016 #7
Doesn't say that Major Nikon Jul 2016 #9
If it's not presented to the legislature, it's not met the constitutional requirement Press Virginia Jul 2016 #11
As said, the constitution doesn't say that and it's a pretty poor assumption Major Nikon Jul 2016 #21
Really? So you believe if the order of clemency is never presented it is still valid? Press Virginia Jul 2016 #22
So how do you explain the fact that Robin Lovitt is still alive? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #23
I doubt seriously your interpretation would hold up in court. WillowTree Jul 2016 #53
It's never even been so much as challenged Major Nikon Jul 2016 #54
When he gets shot down again, and he will, maybe you'll understand the process Press Virginia Jul 2016 #83
If it's so easy to understand, why can't you explain how Robin Lovitt is still alive? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #85
because Warner followed the process and presented it to the assembly Press Virginia Jul 2016 #87
The governor's order was clemency. It was either valid or it wasn't. Major Nikon Jul 2016 #95
Using that logic, there is no need to report the clemency to the legislature Press Virginia Jul 2016 #108
You mean other than the requirement to do so in the constitution? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #115
You've just argued the clemency was constitutionally valid at the time granted Press Virginia Jul 2016 #116
The difference being I supported my assertion any you haven't Major Nikon Jul 2016 #121
So now you're back to arguing it was constitutionally valid when granted Press Virginia Jul 2016 #122
200,000 individual suits will have to be filed, then. MohRokTah Jul 2016 #27
No, not how it works. former9thward Jul 2016 #102
You're misreading the document. All it says is "Tell us what you did." MADem Jul 2016 #17
If it is never presented, is it valid? Press Virginia Jul 2016 #19
Non-sequitur Major Nikon Jul 2016 #26
No it's not. It addresses a requirement in the process Press Virginia Jul 2016 #31
It's not a requirement to grant the clemency. That's where you're screwing up. MADem Jul 2016 #33
Governor Mark R. Warner granted clemency in November to Robin Lovitt Major Nikon Jul 2016 #38
And his clemency wasn't constitutionally valid Press Virginia Jul 2016 #42
So are you trying to say the state should have put him to death since his clemency wasn't valid yet? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #43
I said it wasn't valid until the process was complete Press Virginia Jul 2016 #68
You are dodging the question Major Nikon Jul 2016 #72
He is also insisting that jailbirds are going to be voting from behind bars, MADem Jul 2016 #46
exactly! now, see post 45 Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #48
Too bad, for you, the WaPo found examples of people currently serving sentences in other states Press Virginia Jul 2016 #84
Keep cheering for disenfranchisement--you do realize you are arguing the GOP position? MADem Jul 2016 #89
How do you disenfranchise people who lost their rights after due process? Press Virginia Jul 2016 #92
"Separate but equal" used to be the law of the land, too. Didn't make it right, MADem Jul 2016 #94
So you'd be all for these new voters getting their right to own guns restored Press Virginia Jul 2016 #97
It's the epitome of a non-sequitur Major Nikon Jul 2016 #36
His clemency was not constitutionally valid until Press Virginia Jul 2016 #39
So why is he still alive? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #40
You mean other than the fact the governor fulfilled his constitutional obligation? Press Virginia Jul 2016 #93
Are you going to answer the question or not? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #96
I have. Repeatedly. Surely you're not going to make believe a state employee Press Virginia Jul 2016 #98
Was the order valid or not? Major Nikon Jul 2016 #100
All he has to do is drop it in the mail to them, or have a courier bring it to the legislative head, MADem Jul 2016 #28
everyone please ask this poster what its position is on voter supression Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #45
bravo! Blue_Tires Jul 2016 #15
And this is Terry "Waaah DLC tool, blah blah blah corporate blah blah blah" McAuliffe, too. MADem Jul 2016 #35
McAuliffe has been an awesome governor. n/t FSogol Jul 2016 #52
I am so happy to hear that--I am glad he's doing good, and doing right by the citizens of the MADem Jul 2016 #55
I'll admit even though I voted for him, I was a huge doubter... Blue_Tires Jul 2016 #101
I will never understand how felon disenfranchisement is even constitutional. nt SunSeeker Jul 2016 #30
The states get to decide who gets to vote Major Nikon Jul 2016 #49
What rational "cause" warrants taking away the most basic right of citizenship? SunSeeker Jul 2016 #50
The idea is that those who can't follow the law shouldn't be allowed to make it for others Major Nikon Jul 2016 #51
I started a thread on voter suppression being perhaps the most important issue Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #57
I think Vermont and Maine have the right idea Major Nikon Jul 2016 #65
That makes no sense. We have all broken some law at some point. SunSeeker Jul 2016 #59
That idea would mean the disenfranchisement of the GOP pennylane100 Jul 2016 #75
Their felons are simply in the nicer jails, the country clubs. nt MADem Jul 2016 #90
unfortunately, the Supreme Court has refused to apply this analysis to felon disenfranchisement JustinL Jul 2016 #135
Yes, there's a long list of cases that need overturning. SunSeeker Jul 2016 #136
there's also a particular cruel irony with that case JustinL Jul 2016 #137
Considering the massively disparate impact of felon disenfranchisement... SunSeeker Jul 2016 #139
Excellent tactic!! lark Jul 2016 #32
That's a lot of signing. malthaussen Jul 2016 #66
how much of the thread did you read? Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #67
All of it, why? malthaussen Jul 2016 #71
as did the SCOTUS decide that gore overreached in demanding that ALL votes be counted Gabi Hayes Jul 2016 #76
Stipulating that the VA court voted on purely partisan lines... malthaussen Jul 2016 #80
It comes under the governor's clemency. Nevernose Jul 2016 #123
Thanks for that. malthaussen Jul 2016 #132
Both the state and federal Constitutions made it easier for the Executive... Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2016 #133
It's essential for the balance of powers Nevernose Jul 2016 #134
It's never made any sense to continue to punish criminals after they've paid their debt to underahedgerow Jul 2016 #88
No such thing as an "ex felon" frankieallen Jul 2016 #103
Oh yeah? Tell that to a host of publications, (check Google) and NPR. MADem Jul 2016 #111
Oh yeah? Is there any such thing as a former murderer? A former rapist? frankieallen Jul 2016 #142
Well, it's possible they used to be whatthehey Jul 2016 #144
Those are different things--stop trying to equate them. MADem Jul 2016 #145
Once you complete your sentence Abq_Sarah Jul 2016 #110
This makes me smile Gothmog Jul 2016 #125
I can't speak for anyone else here Tsiyu Jul 2016 #131
In 1902, what was the INTENT of the VA constitutional convention that disfranchised 'felons'? ProgressiveEconomist Jul 2016 #140
 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
1. And it'll be struck down again because the plain text of the constitution requires
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:54 AM
Jul 2016

him to present the particulars of each and every case with the reason for his granting relief to the legislature during regular session.

The VA legislature is adjourned until after the election

MADem

(135,425 posts)
2. Is there a provision in the constitution that he can act without the legislature if they are
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:02 PM
Jul 2016

not in session?

There's provisions in the federal one for that....

Also, he's not changing anyone's sentence, here, they're already out. He's not cutting people loose from jail. No sentence commuting, or anything of that nature. There's a distinction and a difference, there.

I gotta hand it to Terry. He's put enfranchisement front and center, and it IS a big deal. Once someone has paid their debt to society, they should be able to rejoin society FULLY.

He's on the side of the angels with this move, even though he may end up with carpal tunnel if he doesn't use the auto-pen!

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
3. No. This all could have been avoided if TM had followed the constitution
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:07 PM
Jul 2016

instead of issuing his proclamation the day after the legislature recessed.

He should have done what he says he's going to do, now, at the beginning of the year. It would have been presented and constitutionally valid

MADem

(135,425 posts)
8. You, I'm afraid, are wrong. See post five.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:26 PM
Jul 2016

He doesn't have to obtain PERMISSION.

He merely has to INFORM them the next time they show up for work.

Good for Terry.

I am very chuffed that he did this--it's the right damn thing to do.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
10. It's not permission. It's the process according to the constitution
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:28 PM
Jul 2016

it's not valid until presented, as part of the required process.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
24. That's right - It it NOT "permission." It says "Let us know what you have done."
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jul 2016

Keep us in the loop, basically. Give us a report so we know what you were up to.

And he will do that, as soon as they show up for work. But life doesn't stop because they're on vacation.

He is not supplicating, here, he is not asking permission. This is IN his wheelhouse. It is within his authority to do this. The feedback loop to the legislature is bookkeeping, not permission. The deal is DONE by the time the report gets to the legislature.


It's only 13,000 people who have already registered to vote, so he'll do them first, and then do the rest of them later.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
78. If it were, the court wouldn't have struck it down
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:06 PM
Jul 2016

The man actually restored the voting rights of a felon who is currently serving time in a mental facility until he's found fit to stand trial on his new felony charge.

And then there's the felons who left the state and now sit in prisons in other states.

It was a cluster fuck from the get go

MADem

(135,425 posts)
86. Now you are convoluting.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:24 PM
Jul 2016

The blanket ruling overturned by the racist panel of judges is a completely different thing from 13K individual clemency documents, for those who have registered to vote, followed by 187K more for ex-offenders who have also paid their debt to society.


FWIW, a man who is being held in a mental facility because he is non compos mentis but who has not yet been tried or convicted of anything is not yet guilty of anything save being a danger to himself, or others. How hideous that you're trying to suggest otherwise. We do have presumption of innocence in USA, you know.

And we don't remove the right to vote from people with mental health issues.

If he discharged a previous debt to society, then he is a former felon. Being held for charges in a mental hospital is not proof of guilt, it's a medical assertion of mental illness requiring commitment for the safety of the patient and the public; but it is NOT an "admission of guilt" -- and if you continue along these lines, I am going to have to draw some very harsh conclusions about your attitude towards the rule of law.

You acquit yourself very poorly in this thread. What's a "cluster fuck" is your cheerleading for disenfranchisement. It's frankly shameful.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
91. So the insane guy should be voting, right along with the other felons currently
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:33 PM
Jul 2016

serving time in other states.

The 13k were the ones who registered since the blanket clemency. Who knows if TMs people bothered to look into where they currently reside and what their pending legal status is in their rush to get this done.

And racist? He didn't have the authority to do what he did. And his attempt to half ass it, again, will be shot down

MADem

(135,425 posts)
105. You are way out of step with the Democratic Party on this matter.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 06:36 PM
Jul 2016

Some homework for you. https://exoffenders.net/felon-voting-rights/


It wasn't ONE judge who ruled on this, it was several. The vote went along racial and party lines. I thought you were well versed in this topic, apparently you are not.

People who register to vote generally do it WHERE THEY LIVE. These are all recent registrations.

Most states--check your homework, above--will let ex-felons vote. VA is a state with a problem; the governor is attempting to rectify it.

And calling a gubernatorial prerogative "half ass" ing it?

You are far afield.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
107. So it was racist because of the color of the judges?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jul 2016

The process is clear. TM didn't adhere to it.

I can read, I know what was done and I read the decision

Even Tim Kaine asserted that the governor lacked the authority to do this back in 2010. The state constitution hasn't changed, with regard to the governor's clemency powers.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
109. The process IS clear--the governor is going to provide clemency, and
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 07:28 PM
Jul 2016

and if you don't like it, too bad.

The issue here was BLANKET clemency with a majority GOP/white judiciary. Reverse that and you'd get a different decision.

In any event, it's going to be blanket clemency, meted out individually.

smdh.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
113. The correct way, since a partisan court interfered with him, is to sign each one and hand them out.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 08:22 PM
Jul 2016

The legislature gets their report when they return, but the deed is done when the clemency document is signed.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
114. The partisan court came to the same conclusion Tim Kaine did in 2010
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:16 PM
Jul 2016

for the same reasons.
now, is Tim Kaine a racist partisan?
Is a practice that treats all felons equally, without regard to race, racist?


 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
118. How is a practice that isn't based on race racist? And if their opinions are the same
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:28 PM
Jul 2016

how could one be based on racism and the other not be?

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
120. Funny how my views are the same as the current VP pick's with regard to this issue
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:35 PM
Jul 2016

all felons lose their right regardless of race, religion, sex or ethnicity...and you're screaming about racism.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
126. Really? Tim Kaine, the SCOVA and I have all said the governor doesn't have the
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:57 PM
Jul 2016

authority to issue blanket clemency based on the va constitution.

Kaine figured it out in 2010, the court agreed with his interpretation which is the same as mine based on the plain text of the constitution

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
127. Where does it say the actions are not valid until presented? It doesn't.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:42 PM
Jul 2016

This "plain text" you cite talks about pardons and reprieves "granted" - past tense.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
128. If they are not presented then the process has not been fulfilled
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:51 PM
Jul 2016

therefore they are not constitutionally valid until presented.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
13. didn't think he had it in him.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:35 PM
Jul 2016

as a former resident, from 76 to 90, I've noted the dramatic changes

NOVA has become much more liberal, joining the urban/sane voting block to the extent that this state has voted dem for only the third time (last two elections) since 1952, the lone exception being the 64 Goldwater fiasco

http://www.270towin.com/states/Virginia

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
6. so....200000 secondsx10 seconds, divided by 3600=how many hours?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:25 PM
Jul 2016

555 hours?

about 9 weeks of 60 hours each? that's a lot of signing

CNN resident idiot Scottie Nell Hughes just bemoaned the circumventing of the court ruling. har.

watch her video, whose ending slide is at the bottom:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/scottie-nell-hughes-announces-new-gig-at-cnn-in-most-ostentatious-way-possible/

MADem

(135,425 posts)
12. What a loon! All that, over being named a "CNN CONTRIBUTOR?"
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:35 PM
Jul 2016

She's not even STAFF--she's a contract worker for the duration of general election season. She's mainly for "color" because she knows the Trump organization. They may use her to get to someone on the inside, on occasion, for deep background or what-have-you.

As for Terry, if use of the AUTOPEN is legal (and I don't see why not, so long as there's a document with his signature saying "Issue clemency declarations to this list of people&quot , all he needs is a crew of staff (with the equivalent of what's called in the military "By Direction" authority) to check each document and maybe put an initial next to the autopen signature.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
16. I don't have anything else to do....just waiting to change my sprinkler locations
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:38 PM
Jul 2016

tomatoes are going TRUMP on me!

spooky3

(34,458 posts)
4. Does that require someone to challenge each individual case in court, though?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:13 PM
Jul 2016

Unlikely that opponents have the resources to do that.

Surely McAuliffe has competent legal advisers who wouldn't advise him to waste his time on signing 200000 orders if they are meaningless.

According to this

https://governor.virginia.gov/newsroom/newsarticle?articleId=16047

He has experts, including someone who was an author of the constitution, who say he has this individual signature authority.

spooky3

(34,458 posts)
18. Did you read the article?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:39 PM
Jul 2016

It doesn't appear so as the writer is named, and nothing is said about advisers' role in the first case. Here is more info about Howard, who was an author, but I don't know why you couldn't have googled it before mocking it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.E._Dick_Howard

It was a 4-3 decision with the majority white and 2 members of the minority black. Doesn't that strike you as being rather politically, and possibly racially motivated?

Other sources have described the reasoning to be based on convention and not on Constitutional language.

Your posts, without links, are losing credibility here.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
20. The only black and white that matters is what the plain text of what the constitution says
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jul 2016

it's not vague

MADem

(135,425 posts)
25. And it has been quoted, and it is clear as a bell, yet you keep ignoring it.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:51 PM
Jul 2016

The governor does not have to obtain PERMISSION from the legislature, he just has to let them know what he DID (past tense--what he DID, not what he's gonna do).

You are trying too hard, here. This is NOT an "advise and consent" function. It's a bookkeeping matter.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
129. But he knows history and stuff.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:51 PM
Jul 2016

Here I am getting schooled on how the Democrats were responsible for Jim Crow:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8041659

I had forgotten it since the 15 times a week my freeper sister in law posts it on Facebook

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
29. so what? have you heard of Bush v. gore?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jul 2016

or the crooked, FAR right wing judge who tipped the scales in favor of overthrowing Ollie North's conviction?

since you're the expert, what's the makeup of the court that ruled via POWERFUL majority on the 'constitutionality' of his actions?

nothing political there, no doubt, right?>>>>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/gop-wins-long-va-supreme-court-fight-with-mcauliffe/2016/03/10/928bb182-e6d5-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html

so where do you stand on this? are you for or against the idea of felons forever being deprived of their right to vote after paying their debt to society?

if you're for the idea, fair enough. you make a constitutional argument to a clearly political struggle, dealing with a court that is APPPOINTED by the VA legislature, which is every bit as hostile to McAuliffe as congress is to Obama. you didn't mention that very salient fact in your pristine, 'constitutionally' based posts, whose veracity seem only bolstered by your own insistence. who should we believe, your own, uncited admonitions, or the ones which quote actual constitutional language.

if you're against the concept, why are you even here?

for or against all the phony voter suppression laws that are, finally, starting to be slapped down in the courts?

anxious to hear

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
34. I stand with the constitutional process requiring individual orders
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:09 PM
Jul 2016

you realize this stunt restored rights to felons serving life sentences in other states, sitting in local jails awaiting sentencing on new felony charges and, in one case, a man who is currently in a state psychiatrist prison?

This was a poorly thought out and even more poorly executed stunt.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
41. This restores rights to people who have DISCHARGED their debt to society.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:19 PM
Jul 2016

I think you're protesting too much, there.

It's not a "stunt." It's JUSTICE.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
44. that non anwer told us all we need to know
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:27 PM
Jul 2016

appears that it has no problem with voter suppression/denial of restoration of voting rights that is the cornerstone of republican election strategy

I'll assume that to be the case until it responds to that question

does it care at all about the phony striking of names from the voter rolls in florida, which, if reversed, all by itself would have changed the course of history, by not allowing bush to have availed himself of the sacred 'constitutional' process, of which it seems to be so fond

note, also, it failed to answer the question of a totally politicized VA supreme court, along with the selection process, itself

that court has all the legitimacy of the one that gave us Bush. nice precedent. a precedent, of course, which was denied by that very court in ruling for Bush

MADem

(135,425 posts)
104. Are you serious?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 06:16 PM
Jul 2016
"81. They had their rights revoked after getting due process. They aren't owed anything"


Again, you do realize that disenfranchisement is a Republican--not a Democratic Party--goal?

Perhaps you don't realize this, but MOST states restore voting rights to ex-felons.

Here, a primer for you: https://exoffenders.net/felon-voting-rights/

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
106. I don't take marching orders from any party. You want your rights back, earn them
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 07:05 PM
Jul 2016

and not just for voting, guns too.

You want them automatically restored? Commit your felony in a state that automatically restores them.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
143. The rational mind concludes the rights have indeed, been earned back
Tue Jul 26, 2016, 03:42 PM
Jul 2016

The rational mind concludes the rights have indeed, been earned back (more accurately, "restored"-- though I realize that phrase counters your own narratives) by fulfilling the terms of incarceration.

Although I'd be certainly entertain the litmus test you'd place on "earning back" rights should you choose to rationalize them.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
58. where did it go? unsupported assertions remind you of similar discussion tactics?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:58 PM
Jul 2016

wonder if it will be back

perhaps it went to some law links in search of support

OR, perhaps it realizes that there are some who are willing and able to rationally challenge said unsupported assertions......

niyad

(113,336 posts)
60. oh dear, was it something I said? I know, it is so hard for some to understand that we
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:00 PM
Jul 2016

can actually think!!

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
61. didn't mean for you to think it was you to whom I referred.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:03 PM
Jul 2016

I was talking about the one who supports the idea of unconstitutional restoration of voting rights for convicts

niyad

(113,336 posts)
70. from the article
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:38 PM
Jul 2016

The state corrected the errors Thursday after inquiries from The Post about why the civil rights of Cloud, Harmon-Wright and several others were restored, according to a searchable database on the Secretary of Commonwealth website. Their rights were restored on April 22, the day McAuliffe signed the clemency order.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
73. Yeah...if it hadn't been looked into by WaPo
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:53 PM
Jul 2016

You'd have felons, serving time in other states, or currently awaiting sentencing on new crimes, possibly voting in VA Elections right along with a guy who was serving his sentence in a state mental hospital.

This is one of the problems with what TM did.

 

RonniePudding

(889 posts)
64. Their slip is showing, that's for sure
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:10 PM
Jul 2016

The poster seems emotionally invested in keeping people from voting. Not typically the behavior of a progressive. Might be a gunner, too.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
74. Nope. Just want it to be done in accordance wity
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:56 PM
Jul 2016

The constitution.

Maybe you're fine with guys serving sentences in state mental hospitals or serving life sentences in other states having their VA voting rights restored because the governor didn't bother doing the basic due diligence needed to make sure the right people had their rights restored.
I have a problem with it

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
5. The constitution doesn't require the legislature to be in session for him to act
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jul 2016

It just says...

Section 12. Executive clemency.

The Governor shall have power to remit fines and penalties under such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by law; to grant reprieves and pardons after conviction except when the prosecution has been carried on by the House of Delegates; to remove political disabilities consequent upon conviction for offenses committed prior or subsequent to the adoption of this Constitution; and to commute capital punishment.

He shall communicate to the General Assembly, at each regular session, particulars of every case of fine or penalty remitted, of reprieve or pardon granted, and of punishment commuted, with his reasons for remitting, granting, or commuting the same.


So nothing precludes him from taking action, and then communicating his action to the General Assembly the next time they are in session.
 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
11. If it's not presented to the legislature, it's not met the constitutional requirement
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:33 PM
Jul 2016

to be valid.

That will be the next suit to counter his new plan.
It's not as simple as signing a letter of clemency. The particulars of each case must be presented with reasons for the relief.
It is not valid until presented at the regular session.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
21. As said, the constitution doesn't say that and it's a pretty poor assumption
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:42 PM
Jul 2016

If what you were saying is true, a death row inmate seeking clemency at the 11th hour would be executed even if the governor approved it simply because the legislature wasn't in session. The Virginia legislature is only in session for about 6 weeks out of the year, so the idea that a governor might have to wait almost 11 months to take action on something the legislature can't even deny to begin with is just not that great of an idea and is demonstrably false.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
22. Really? So you believe if the order of clemency is never presented it is still valid?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:44 PM
Jul 2016

If your answer is No, that should tell you something.
If your answer is Yes, you're ignoring the plain text of the document

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
54. It's never even been so much as challenged
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:52 PM
Jul 2016

Probably because it would be monumentally stupid to do so.

Read the link in my previous post for a relevant example. I'm sure there's lots more.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
85. If it's so easy to understand, why can't you explain how Robin Lovitt is still alive?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:21 PM
Jul 2016

Very telling that.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
87. because Warner followed the process and presented it to the assembly
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:26 PM
Jul 2016

all the state did was not kill him in the meantime per the governor's order.

it was not constitutionally valid until it was presented to the assembly, as required

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
95. The governor's order was clemency. It was either valid or it wasn't.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 04:02 PM
Jul 2016

You don't get to have it both ways. Without a valid order of clemency, there would have been no legal authority to halt the execution. If you think otherwise, then you should explain the legal authority which allowed the governor to halt the execution. Alleging they ignored a judge's lawful order of execution for shits and giggles just isn't worth that much.

If your allegedly solid theory of jurisprudence had any merit, why then is there exactly zero mention of it in the court petition on the executive order? Did you even get that far into thinking this one out? It's not as if they didn't throw everything else into the mix when they filed it.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
108. Using that logic, there is no need to report the clemency to the legislature
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 07:21 PM
Jul 2016

no one challenged the clemency order. It became constitutionally valid upon presentation to the legislature when the process was completed

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
115. You mean other than the requirement to do so in the constitution?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:22 PM
Jul 2016

Amazing how you invent things into the constitution that aren't there, while simultaneously ignoring what actually is in there.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
116. You've just argued the clemency was constitutionally valid at the time granted
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:26 PM
Jul 2016

I've said, from the start, clemency isn't valid until presented to the legislature

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
121. The difference being I supported my assertion any you haven't
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:41 PM
Jul 2016

I provided you with a relevant example which proves your assertion dead wrong. The best you could come up with to support your assertion is a non-sequitur.

Since you have yet to come up with anything else, I'm getting a bit tired of the argumentum ad nauseum tactic. Feel free to continue on your own here.

former9thward

(32,020 posts)
102. No, not how it works.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 05:30 PM
Jul 2016

Courts are not idiots and would never allow that. One suit will be filed and the rest will be on hold until that is settled.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
17. You're misreading the document. All it says is "Tell us what you did."
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:39 PM
Jul 2016

It does NOT say "Your shit is not valid UNTIL you tell us what you did." If that were a requirement, it surely would be MENTIONED in the document, and it is not.

He's on solid ground.

Your premise that this is the way it works is totally absurd. The government continues on in the absence of the legislature. If the governor could not accomplish anything while they're out of session, TM might as well sashay off to Aruba, or something. The governor has a right to accomplish that which is within the purview of his portfolio, and clemency is in that bag.


MADem

(135,425 posts)
33. It's not a requirement to grant the clemency. That's where you're screwing up.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jul 2016
AFTER the clemency is granted, the legislature wants a report on who-what-when-where-why.

Those are two different and distinct processes. The clemency is granted, and THEN the report to the legislature is provided. One does not "wait" on the other.

You are completely mistaken. You can try dying on this hill if you'd like, but it's a pointless effort--the document is clear as day.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
38. Governor Mark R. Warner granted clemency in November to Robin Lovitt
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:17 PM
Jul 2016

...just one day before he was scheduled to be executed. The Virginia legislature wasn't due to be in session for another 2 months. If what the previous poster is saying were true, Robin Lovitt would be dead today.

So it's not as if all of this isn't easily disproved.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/30/us/clemency-stops-an-execution-in-virginia.html

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
42. And his clemency wasn't constitutionally valid
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:20 PM
Jul 2016

until presented to the legislature.

The fact the state didn't murder him in the meantime doesn't change the constitutional process or requirements.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
72. You are dodging the question
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:45 PM
Jul 2016

So I'll ask it a different way and give you another chance to either answer it or dodge it again.

If the governor's 11th hour clemency of a death row inmate isn't valid until the legislature is in session, should they be put to death?

If you don't understand the question, please ask and I will better explain it to you. Simply avoiding the question provides its own answer.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
46. He is also insisting that jailbirds are going to be voting from behind bars,
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jul 2016

when McAuliffe specifically says this is for people who have PAID their debt to society. Many have been on the straight-and-narrow for a decade or more.

This is all about EX felons, not guys in jail now: http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/07/23/3801355/virginia-felon-voting-update/

and it is also about mostly non-violent offenders, and one in five black men living in VA.

I think the poster is displeased that the Democratic governor found a way around obstructionist, disenfranchising judges.

Too bad about that. Voting rights are human rights.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
84. Too bad, for you, the WaPo found examples of people currently serving sentences in other states
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:18 PM
Jul 2016

whose VA rights would have been restored huh?
One guy is in a state mental hospital until he's fit to stand trial on a new felony

MADem

(135,425 posts)
89. Keep cheering for disenfranchisement--you do realize you are arguing the GOP position?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:29 PM
Jul 2016

You'd do well to read the TOS here. Democrats favor access to the polls.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
92. How do you disenfranchise people who lost their rights after due process?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:35 PM
Jul 2016

I wonder, would you support them owning guns too?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
94. "Separate but equal" used to be the law of the land, too. Didn't make it right,
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:55 PM
Jul 2016

in any way, shape or form. Disenfranchising citizens, particularly those who have incurred a debt to society and PAID IT in full, is denying them a basic right and ostracizing them from our society, which encourages recidivism.

This is social science 101--not rocket science. Only the Republicans take such a backward view of the process, mainly because the fewer poor and brown and black people who vote, to say nothing of women, the better off they are.

I am a strong advocate for more, not less, gun control. I'm certainly not advocating punishing some weed smoking rasta who got sent up the river for twenty years on a dumb ass over-charge (Because War On Drugs!!!) any more or less than I'd punish a Trumpkid - looking inside trader who did a tour at Club Fed.

You've misread the law. McAuliffe is within his rights.

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
97. So you'd be all for these new voters getting their right to own guns restored
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 04:08 PM
Jul 2016

Surely you don't want an actual enumerated right in the state constitution to be stripped from a guy who paid his debt to society, especially a black man living in a state with a racist Supreme Court and backwards laws that steal rights from minorities who paid their debt to the state.

Who cares if the governor half asses his part of the process and restores the rights of a person who is legally insane, serving a life sentence in a neighboring state or awaiting sentencing on a new felony conviction, right? It's about 2016 not actually making sure the right people are having their rights restored for the right reason.

If TM had done his job correctly the first time, the issue would be over. Instead it's going to be even more closely scrutinized and played as an attempt to hand the state to HRC in some corrupt manner....especially if it's found that there are people whose right to vote is restored while they're sitting in a prison cell in MD serving a life sentence

 

Press Virginia

(2,329 posts)
98. I have. Repeatedly. Surely you're not going to make believe a state employee
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 04:11 PM
Jul 2016

would ignore an order by the governor and execute someone

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
100. Was the order valid or not?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 04:25 PM
Jul 2016

Sounds like you are now claiming the order was valid, which directly contradicts your previous claim that it wasn't.

The doublespeak is getting pretty strong.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
28. All he has to do is drop it in the mail to them, or have a courier bring it to the legislative head,
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 12:56 PM
Jul 2016

and his "burden" of notification is discharged.

I realize this is upsetting to you, but the document clearly indicates that the authority is HIS, and his only duty to the legislature is letting them know, AFTER THE FACT, that he has done it. The legislature has NO authority over him in this regard--they can't stop him, all they are is "informed" after the fact.

It's clear as day in the constitution. Read it with an un-jaundiced eye. Not sure why you are trying so hard to see what isn't there, but Major Nikon is right on the money, here.

You're reading the thing wrong.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
45. everyone please ask this poster what its position is on voter supression
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jul 2016

until that, ignore its 'contributions'

pretty simple, yes

does this remind anyone of the merry go round that developed among all the trumpbots, insisting that there was NO PLAGIARISM by trump's female appendage?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
35. And this is Terry "Waaah DLC tool, blah blah blah corporate blah blah blah" McAuliffe, too.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:11 PM
Jul 2016

He's HATED here in some corners--yet here he is, standing up and being a real mensch.

Good for Terry--I love it when Dems do right!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
55. I am so happy to hear that--I am glad he's doing good, and doing right by the citizens of the
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:52 PM
Jul 2016

commonwealth.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
49. The states get to decide who gets to vote
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:35 PM
Jul 2016

Provided they aren't violating civil rights laws, they are allowed to disenfranchise certain people with cause.

It's just a coincidence that an overwhelming disparate number of POC are disenfranchised.



SunSeeker

(51,571 posts)
50. What rational "cause" warrants taking away the most basic right of citizenship?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:41 PM
Jul 2016

These are folks who have paid their debt for their crimes. What possible justification do states have to take away their constitutional rights? What compelling state interest does it serve? Seems like a blatant violation of the equal protection clause.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
51. The idea is that those who can't follow the law shouldn't be allowed to make it for others
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:46 PM
Jul 2016

It's a very old idea that goes back to the founding of the country and probably well before that. Many states have abandoned the idea and two even allow people to vote behind bars.

The Nazi GOP uses it to illegitimately insure they remain in power. The state of Mississippi actually tried to expand the list of crimes to things like shoplifting.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
57. I started a thread on voter suppression being perhaps the most important issue
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:54 PM
Jul 2016

in the election....got about no response

what do you think?

that and recurring civil unrest/violence/terror would seem to the elephants in the electoral tent

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
65. I think Vermont and Maine have the right idea
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:11 PM
Jul 2016

Even people behind bars should be allowed to vote.

I haven't really thought about what should be the most important issue. Many come to mind. Voter suppression is one of many fascist initiatives of the GOP and I'd have to say that it should be very high on the list. There are counties in my state of Texas where fascist sheriffs are stationing deputies at polling places specifically to discourage minorities from voting. The shit is getting way out of hand. If you look at the civil unrest, it's happening where it's always happened which is in the states that have the most bigoted policies.

SunSeeker

(51,571 posts)
59. That makes no sense. We have all broken some law at some point.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 01:58 PM
Jul 2016

Under that rationale, all of us would lose the right to vote.

If we let racists vote, felons should vote.

JustinL

(722 posts)
135. unfortunately, the Supreme Court has refused to apply this analysis to felon disenfranchisement
Sun Jul 24, 2016, 08:55 PM
Jul 2016

In Richardson v Ramirez, 418 U. S. 24 (1974), at a time when conservatives held a 6-3 majority, the Court upheld felon disenfranchisement by a 6-2 vote (two of the liberals dissented, while the third, Douglas, didn't reach the merits).

Justice Rehnquist's majority opinion left undisturbed prior holdings that a restriction on the franchise generally must meet a "compelling state interest." His opinion hinged on his interpretation of the interrelationship between the Equal Protection Clause and section 2 of the 14th Amendment:

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.


The heart of his opinion, from pp. 54-55:

the exclusion of felons from the vote has an affirmative sanction in § 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment, a sanction which was not present in the case of the other restrictions on the franchise which were invalidated in the cases on which respondents rely. We hold that the understanding of those who adopted the Fourteenth Amendment, as reflected in the express language of § 2 and in the historical and judicial interpretation of the Amendment's applicability to state laws disenfranchising felons, is of controlling significance in distinguishing such laws from those other state limitations on the franchise which have been held invalid under the Equal Protection Clause by this Court. We do not think that the Court's refusal to accept Mr. Justice Harlan's position in his dissents in Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U. S. 533, 377 U. S. 589 (1964), and Carrington v. Rash, 380 U. S. 89, 380 U. S. 97 (1965), that § 2 is the only part of the Amendment dealing with voting rights, dictates an opposite result. We need not go nearly so far as Mr. Justice Harlan would to reach our conclusion, for we may rest on the demonstrably sound proposition that § 1, in dealing with voting rights as it does, could not have been meant to bar outright a form of disenfranchisement which was expressly exempted from the less drastic sanction of reduced representation which § 2 imposed for other forms of disenfranchisement. Nor can we accept respondents' argument that, because § 2 was made part of the Amendment

"'largely through the accident of political exigency, rather than through the relation which it bore to the other sections of the Amendment,'"

we must not look to it for guidance in interpreting § 1. It is as much a part of the Amendment as any of the other sections, and how it became a part of the Amendment is less important than what it says and what it means.


IOW, the general "compelling interest" rule announced in prior rulings did not apply to felon disenfranhcisement. Justice Marshall's dissenting opinion, joined by Justice Brennan, disagreed with this interpretation. From pp. 73-74 (footnotes omitted):

The historical purpose for § 2 itself is, however, relatively clear and, in my view, dispositive of this case. The Republicans who controlled the 39th Congress were concerned that the additional congressional representation of the Southern States which would result from the abolition of slavery might weaken their own political dominance. There were two alternatives available -- either to limit southern representation, which was unacceptable on a long-term basis, or to insure that southern Negroes, sympathetic to the Republican cause, would be enfranchised; but an explicit grant of suffrage to Negroes was thought politically unpalatable at the time. Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment was the resultant compromise. It put Southern States to a choice -- enfranchise Negro voters or lose congressional representation.

The political motivation behind § 2 was a limited one. It had little to do with the purposes of the rest of the Fourteenth Amendment. As one noted commentator explained:

"'It became a part of the Fourteenth Amendment largely through the accident of political exigency, rather than through the relation which it bore to the other sections of the Amendment.'"

&quot I)t seems quite impossible to conclude that there was a clear and deliberate understanding in the House that § 2 was the sole source of national authority to protect voting rights, or that it expressly recognized the states' power to deny or abridge the right to vote."

It is clear that § 2 was not intended, and should not be construed, to be a limitation on the other sections of the Fourteenth Amendment. Section 2 provides a special remedy -- reduced representation -- to cure a particular form of electoral abuse -- the disenfranchisement of Negroes. There is no indication that the framers of the provisions intended that special penalty to be the exclusive remedy for all forms of electoral discrimination. This Court has repeatedly rejected that rationale. See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U. S. 533 (1964); Carrington v. Rash, 380 U. S. 89 (1965).

Rather, a discrimination to which the penalty provision of § 2 is inapplicable must still be judged against the Equal Protection Clause of § 1 to determine whether judicial or congressional remedies should be invoked.


Hopefully, with a new liberal majority on the Court, Richardson v Ramirez will be overruled.

SunSeeker

(51,571 posts)
136. Yes, there's a long list of cases that need overturning.
Mon Jul 25, 2016, 12:13 AM
Jul 2016

The fact that the did not even try to articulate a state interest, let alone a compelling one, is telling.

JustinL

(722 posts)
137. there's also a particular cruel irony with that case
Mon Jul 25, 2016, 01:08 AM
Jul 2016

As far as I know, section 2 of the 14th Amendment has never been used for its intended purpose of protecting voting rights. No matter how many of its citizens it disenfranchised through poll taxes, literacy tests, white primaries, etc., no state ever suffered a reduction in Congressional representation as a result.

SunSeeker

(51,571 posts)
139. Considering the massively disparate impact of felon disenfranchisement...
Mon Jul 25, 2016, 01:38 AM
Jul 2016

...that alone should make it unconstitutional. Cruel history indeed.

malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
66. That's a lot of signing.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:16 PM
Jul 2016

I don't think using an executive order to restore voting rights is the right move, constitutionally. Voting rights have normally been in the purview of the legislature, not the executive, haven't they? (With application to the Courts if the legislature violates the Constitution of the state in question). What would be the effect if suit was filed on the grounds that depriving time-served felons of the right to vote is unconstitutional? Wouldn't that be the route most in keeping with the idea of checks and balances? Could even be a class action suit, to avoid having to deal on a case-by-case basis.

-- Mal

malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
71. All of it, why?
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 02:44 PM
Jul 2016

Most of it seems to be a debate with one individual over the mechanics of awarding clemency in Virginia.

Since the governor's executive order has already been declared overreach by lower court, the question is not one of the legality of the action, but rather if it is right and fitting that the executive should decide who is and is not eligible to vote in the state.

-- Mal

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
76. as did the SCOTUS decide that gore overreached in demanding that ALL votes be counted
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:02 PM
Jul 2016

the VA court situation is totally politicized, just as that SCOTUS was, with similar, anti-democratic results

if the court had been filled according to the governor's wishes, instead of being stalled and blocked by an insanely right wing VA legislature, would you have agreed that the decision to allow the convicts to vote, therefore, constitutional

big fan of Bush v. Gore, are you?

malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
80. Stipulating that the VA court voted on purely partisan lines...
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:10 PM
Jul 2016

... a matter on which I am not competent to comment, you seem to be asserting that if the Court were politicized in another direction, the constitutionality of the Governor's act would have been affirmed.

But I am not, for the present, interested in the legal question, but rather in the question of right. Should it within the purview of the executive branch to decide who has and has not the right to vote? Is there precedent established that it is? Or has it rather, for good or ill, been a question subject to the Legislature with judicial review?

Bush v Gore does not apply.

And to forestall any question on the subject, I do not favor, as a matter of right, that felons should be denied the right to vote once their sentence has been completed.

-- Mal

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
123. It comes under the governor's clemency.
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 10:44 PM
Jul 2016

Just like pardoning or commuting, in Virginia the Governor can also restore voting rights. Since I believe that it's acceptable for an executive to pardon or commute, this dilution follows naturally.

malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
132. Thanks for that.
Sun Jul 24, 2016, 09:12 AM
Jul 2016

Theoretically, does not the power to loose imply the power to bind? If the governor can enfranchise a group of people by the proverbial stroke of the pen, what prevents him from disenfranchising a group?

-- Mal

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
133. Both the state and federal Constitutions made it easier for the Executive...
Sun Jul 24, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jul 2016

... to restore rights than take away rights.

Trial by jury and the requirement of due process of law prevents the executive acting in such a manner.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
134. It's essential for the balance of powers
Sun Jul 24, 2016, 03:01 PM
Jul 2016

Legislature makes the laws, judiciary applies them, governor enforces them. Part of that circle is that each branch has remedies it can use to correct the actions of the other branches.

I don't think any executive in a Western democracy can sign an order taking AWAY voting rights, at least not in a legal way, though I also suppose lots of shenanigans occur though with number of voting booths, counting votes, etc.

underahedgerow

(1,232 posts)
88. It's never made any sense to continue to punish criminals after they've paid their debt to
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 03:26 PM
Jul 2016

society.

I'm not a fan of state's rights, but that's a whole 'nuther Oprah.

“For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.”
― Thomas More, Utopia

 

frankieallen

(583 posts)
142. Oh yeah? Is there any such thing as a former murderer? A former rapist?
Tue Jul 26, 2016, 03:33 PM
Jul 2016

I don't think so, if you have a felony on your record, your a felon...period.
As it should be, a felony is a very serious crime.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
144. Well, it's possible they used to be
Tue Jul 26, 2016, 04:15 PM
Jul 2016

But now? Disturbing a funeral is a felony in Delaware for example, as is transferring "obscene" material such as any recordings with an extraordinarily broad definition of the word including "The work or conduct taken as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value."

MADem

(135,425 posts)
145. Those are different things--stop trying to equate them.
Tue Jul 26, 2016, 05:14 PM
Jul 2016

Murderer is not a synonym for felon. Rapist is not a synonym for felon.
In some jurisdictions and circumstances, those crimes are misdemeanors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdemeanor_murder

http://www.people.com/article/prep-school-rape-trial-owen-labrie-found-guilty-misdemeanor-sexual-assault



Your argument is very poor, indeed. I told you where you could find examples of the term being used. "I don't think so" is not a valid rebuttal.

I am sure NPR et.al. won't lose any sleep over your pique.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
131. I can't speak for anyone else here
Sat Jul 23, 2016, 11:57 PM
Jul 2016

but this makes me glad to be a Democrat.

I have seen so many good kids lose their rights and spend years never catching up because of the disenfranchisement old men heap on young people.

Yeah, I'm talking to you you old fucks who benefit from messing up poor young people's lives.

Today was torment watching one person so sick of paying for the pettiest of crimes for YEARS today just say "fuck it, I can't get hired, I can't move out of the state, I can't feed myself, I can't get any help so I'm gonna turn myself in, spend a year locked up to just be done with it."

The mind fuck we have done to young people, saying: "you made a little mistake, but you're poor so you get everything stripped from you" is criminal and a sin. Old men are getting erections and making fortunes telling young men they are less than human.

I am so glad McAuliffe refuses to be bullied by all of the decrepit, bitter old asshats who think nothing of denying others their basic human rights. I can't wait til the old mean turds all die off.

ProgressiveEconomist

(5,818 posts)
140. In 1902, what was the INTENT of the VA constitutional convention that disfranchised 'felons'?
Mon Jul 25, 2016, 02:02 PM
Jul 2016

Only four states currently take away a 'felon's' right to vote for the rest of his life: FL, VA, KY, and IA.Though a 2005 11th Circuit decision in FL seemed to foreclose most prospects for overturning these disfranchisement' through 14th Amendment federal lawsuits, a Georgetown Law student thinks VA's disfranchisement' might be ripe for such legal action:

"Consider this infamous quote from the 1901-02 Virginia Constitutional Convention:

'Discrimination! Why, that is precisely what we propose. That, exactly, is what this Convention was elected for–to discriminate to the very extremity of permissible action under the limitations of the Federal Constitution, with a view to the elimination of every negro voter who can be gotten rid of legally, without materially impairing the numerical strength of the white electorate'.

.”That quote comes from Carter Glass, a future U.S. Senator and the very delegate who sponsored the state’s suffrage amendment."

(quote from Alex Keyssar’s The Right to Vote: The Contested History of Democracy in the United States)

Now, two things are clear from these statements: first, the explicit intent behind the suffrage laws adopted at the Virginia Constitutional Convention in 1901-02 was to discriminate on the basis of race; second, these legislators believed that any law which did not specifically restrict the right to vote based on the voter’s race was constitutional.

Of course, under our modern jurisprudence, that second belief is false: a law enacted with the clear intent to discriminate is hard to sustain under the Equal Protection Clause.  However, Virginia, like Florida, has revised its state constitution since the offending provisions were enacted.

But is a (2005 11th Circuit ) test with such a low burden for the state really appropriate where the law was so thoroughly tainted at the outset?

While the 11th Circuit granted additional leeway to Florida where the intent behind their arguably discriminatory law was unclear, I believe the evidence from Virginia justifies a much more searching inquiry, and a much higher level of scrutiny than the 11th Circuit endorsed for Florida in Johnson. The greater the evidence of a law being used to intentionally and willfully discriminate, the greater the burden a state should face in keeping it on the books."

J.R. Lentini is a student at Georgetown University Law Center.

http://electls.blogs.wm.edu/2009/12/04/discriminatory-disenfranchisement-in-virginia

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