And thank you for it.

That scares the hell out of me.

I'm somewhat right of the center of the Democratic party. I am a feminist, and I will proclaim that from the rooftops. How the hell did "I'm not a feminist or anything" get into people's vocabulary?

The right has made such hash out of the word "feminist" (and the word "liberal," for that matter) that people who are the very definition of liberal feminists won't call themselves that.

I call myself both. I'm a feminist and a liberal Democrat.

Come on join us on the left side, Recursion. We have coffee and doughnuts.

And yes, there IS indeed a war on women. And I will NOT go back. And I will NOT accept the second-class-citizen status that so many of my countryMEN wish to impose upon me. And I will NOT stand for it being imposed upon my daughter, either. On this, at least for me, there is no middle ground. This is a non-negotiable. So, on this issue, at least for me, it becomes rather difficult to be a centrist.

And, hey Recursion, please come and join us on the left. The water's fine, the minds are open, and there's always room for at least one more! Besides, we have more fun, too!

Why are all these guys so scared sh-tless of us women ? We can do anything just as well as they , is that it ? We can do one thing better than they , that is giving birth . Women , unite , and vote , please !

Glad you're here! We need you!

Now get to work!

My last NOW rally I made a sign that said "The Handmaid's Tale was not an instruction manual". Horrifyingly, I've actually met people who like Atwood's dystopia.

Never underestimate the capacity of the human spirit.

-- Mal

And I counted 5 readers of "50 shades of gray" on the commute home today. None of that really matters.

Democratic Underground is a home for all sorts of progressives and all sorts of Democrats. I am among the more conservative Democrats that hangs out here, but to my knowledge I've never had a post deleted. And I've met some wonderful people with whom I barely agree about anything. Here's a hint: don't be a dick, and you won't get banned.

I hate to cry "alas", but that trolling really pisses me off. I have been a more or less centrist/conservative Democrat on this board for almost 7 years now and I have never ran afoul of the system. This board is really a home for all sorts of progressives and all sorts of Democrats, and those two aren't always the same thing, and that's part of why I love this place.

Eating his pizza in Trollville.

Thank you for posting this and keeping it real and simple.

Given all the infighting here, as a microcosm of national battles, we might step back and ask, who benefits from the gender wars and why? Why are women and women's bodies fair game and even the battleground itself? And as the insanity of the current events ramps up, where does it stop?

It seems another example of How much will people swallow before saying Enough.

I know you feel sincerely about this. But I have to wonder, as a lifelong liberal myself, what you think you were doing flirting on the edges of these RW lunatics. I understand you are saying your issues weren't really women's issues so you can safely say you were not in the middle of the battle. But being on the sidelines often is a sign that your feelings generally comport with that side. If you were "uncomfortable" why didn't you speak up before now? I really don't understand how this just didn't jump out at you when you first confronted it?

I do believe your conversion. But did it not jump out at you way back when? The Republican Party has been doing this for YEARS! This is not new or novel.

Please try to explain why you didn't say anything earlier. I think we can learn something from you. You have valuable information we can use to get inside the mind of someone who might be just like you, someone who really wants to be fair but feels constrained by past loyalties...

As a high school student in a small town in Mississippi in 1992 for some event or another I said "I am a feminist" and that was more or less it. It identified me as to the left of most of the town, but there was nothing non-heteronormative about it. I'm saying I haven't moved; I was more or less slightly left of center in 1992 (by which I mean I was a self-proclaimed feminist and unapologetically pro-choice) and my views haven't changed, but I find a disturbing portion of this board to the right of me now.

I can understand what you have told me. I was born and raised in Texas in a very RW atmosphere. Unlike you, I left, rather than fight, and went northeast to redemption. My family wasn't happy (you were NOT supposed to leave Texas, ever!). I don't think they ever got over it really. But I didn't care. It was just more important for me to live where I could be comfortable in my skin.

I applaud you for your courage. I really don't think I could have done what you did.

As for DU, well, it is getting bigger and it is to be expected that more gradations of Democratic colorings would take place (some of it truly bogus). It goes with the territory. But we still have our core believers and they are strong. Forget the rest. They are dross.

Good luck to you. I hope you succeed in your efforts and I admire you for doing it in the face of such opposition...

Things are becoming so extreme in regards to women, I do feel as if I'm in an episode of The Twilight Zone these days.

When I am alone and my mind is unoccupied I allow myself to think about where all this might be leading, where the end point might be. I think of the bands of men raping women in Africa, not just raping but injuring women so badly they need major surgical repair and still will never be able to defecate or urinate without a bag. Raping not just grown women but toddlers and women in their 70's and older. I think of the women banding together in small villages to protect themselves from the men.

There is no reason to think those things, or worse, won't happen here. There is plenty of reason for me to be as afraid as I am.

I will be accused of hyperbole, but I don't care. I will speak my mind. I feel the way I imagine a Jewish person would have felt in the years leading up to WWII in Germany. Watching the escalating hate and feeling that fear and hoping one might escape, might be safe, maybe things will turn around...

"corporately managed trade, anti-gun control and are relatively hawkish on defense" (imperialistic) are the ones behind the "war on women". It's ALL interconnected with one goal in mind. Installing fascism (as Mussolini described it- a merging of business and government) in the United States.

Well, I disagree with you about gun control (that started with Jim Crow), but I'll just concede that point rather than drag this thread to the Gungeon.

My point is, I'm about as conservative as people are on this board, and I am a feminist, and I am FUCKING HORRIFIED by what's happening to women's rights today.

and not very well obviously , is that it IS all interconnected. It's become pretty much of a "Whose side are you on?" situation. To stop the fascism, which INCLUDES the war on women, you have to defund the plutocracy. And to do THAT, you have to, LITERALLY, take away their money. And since you've got to take away their money, you might as well invest it in the rest of us.

IOW, socialism.

BTW, I own two .25 automatics and a sawed off Mossberg. I'm not anti-gun. When the fascist start shooting, I'm planning on shooting back.

Finally, as a husband and father of two grown daughters, I'm also fucking horrified by the assault on women's rights. Unfortunately, I've been expecting it, so although I'm horrified, I'm not surprised.

And he has your right flank, in the eventuality.

One thing that makes me lose my fucking mind is when people say "I'm against abortion except in cases of rape or incest."

I really have to restrain myself not to beat them unconscious.

"Really?" I say, "You believe abortion is murder but you allow it in cases of rape? Astounding.
"Do you kill murderers' children? No? Why not? Oh, I see, you claim your concern is the life of the child, but in fact it's the perceived morality of the mother?"

Unless its your body, its not your business.

Of course authoritarians are very good at coming up with long winded rationalizations for their need to control other people.

regarding gender roles and rights is so powerful and important to be able to discern carefully

1.2 million people on the mall, all saying "hey you- yeah, YOU! Stay the hell out of my pants, stay inside your own".



Pretty clear, concise, perceptible message.

Difficult to muddy, confuse, obfuscate, or complicate.

Especially for people who have an agenda that DOES involve telling other people what decisions they can or can't make.

" ...there is in fact a war on women being waged, and anyone who does not stand up against it will face the same hisses from posterity that temporizers about racial civil rights from the 1960s did."

Anti choicers, authoritarians, religious right zealots and their apologists and allies.

Fortunately, though, the vast majority of people believe consenting adults should control their own reproductive systems, sex lives, and make their own decisions.

That's why the nannies, control freaks, authoritarians, and zealots will lose. Because most people support freedom.

Isn't it great?

when we women talk about it. I am really truly frightened by what I've been seeing this past year. I've never seen it this bad and I'm going to be 51 in a month.

I've said, on live TV, "I have a penis, why are you asking me about abortion?" but the logic doesn't seem to have taken.

I've started one or two myself. No consensus on motivation that I've seen.

I lean towards a Sun Tzu interpretation myself: mass distraction. "Make an uproar in the East, attack in the West." I think they may well be making this multi-level attack on women to attract attention to this issue, so they can slip past stuff they really want under cover of all the smoke and fury. As a bonus, since they control the legislatures, they can also pass the anti-women legislation despite the uproar. Whatever happens, we are going to be years fixing the damage.

-- Mal

Reading today about pregnant women prisoners being forced to go through childbirth shackled to their beds.

And this in one of the few states that has laws prohibiting it.

It is another complete contradiction to their claim to care about the life of the unborn fetus...as if that doesn't put the fetus at risk.

Not just demeaning and degrading (as if a woman in labor is a flight risk), but dangerous.

The GOP care about a lot of things, but life is not one of them.

-- Mal

i feel like i'm reading more real/honest stuff here lately, and it's really good to see.

But it's like we're back in 2005 trying to figure stuff out again

is able or willing to stop or cushion the fall. we either find a way to join arms and fight back, or we get rolled. it's prolly more suited for an OP, but Chris Hayes' new book Twilight of the Elites - America After Meritocracy does a really good job of outlining this.

...like these cretins, you shouldn't be allowed NEAR one. And you certainly shouldn't be legislating what they can and cannot do! I am terrified! I'm worried about becoming property and not able to leave the house alone. I do not want to give birth, but apparently that's unnatural and they might force me.

But my mother taught me never to lie.

-- Mal

It is a possibility.
Thank God I'm married to a man who loves women, thanks to his mother. He is gentle and loving and I never have to worry about him becoming one of those idiots.

....but I really, really love vaginas. I think they're awesome and I want to be around them all the time. You know what's really weird? That that is not a heteronormative statement. Does anybody else see the weirdness there?

You was a general term I was using for those idiots in Michigan.

I mean, I really love vaginas. I think they're awesome and sexy. But it kind of scares me that the men who put themselves forward as straight seem to be bothered by them. I mean, I really don't get it.

Well, I love women and the thought of personally having sex with another male repulses me. What does that make me?

Used to be, the answer would be "straight." I'm not so sure anymore.

-- Mal

Big penis, little penis, short penis, long penis, fat penis, limp penis, erect penis...penis, penis, penis. There I said it!

You know those guys who drive those huge pick up duallies? We always know those guys have tiny penises. They are overcompensating BIG TIME.

your ox is getting gored with your help.

Too damn many feminist thought they were safe from the corporate owned and operated Reich and could join the other side in spreading imperialism, stealing all the money, cutting the safety nets, and setting up the security state.

The chickens are coming home

Your take on corporatocracy freaks me out a little.....okay, a lot......but that's not the point here.

This woman greatly appreciates you speaking out from the perspective of a centrist and stating clearly and wonderfully,

So, if any other "centrists" or "serious people" need a wake up call, I hope this can serve as it for you: there is a broad, deep, and horrifying war on women being conducted as we speak in state houses all over the country, and in the Capitol itself.

and decided to speak up. That's what is so damn pathetic.

A female who would have appreciated your voice a fuckin' long time ago.

Hard not to notice with that in yer face, huh.

But the religious right, anti-contraception, make-all-abortion-illegal, war on women types are like a completely different species, that I can't even fathom how to relate to, let alone debate.

The majority of Americans support personal freedom, reproductive rights, and contraceptive access, by huge margins in some cases.

The majority of Americans want government out of their bedrooms.

Most Americans, now, think pot should be legalized. Soon, most Americans will support full marriage equality for GLBT citizens, and soon after that, those numbers will be huge and irreversible.

The times they are a changin'. Personal Freedom- Choice- The right of women to control their own bodies- these ARE centrist positions.

What you're hearing are the dying bleats of dinosaurs, a GOP in thrall to imaginary "values voters" and a knuckle-dragging base that is horribly out of touch. You are seeing older generations enamored with fantasies of running other peoples' lives, desperately clinging to their last shreds of relevance. Of influence.

And let me say that I don't think there are too many people on DU who are anti-choice. At least, there shouldn't be.

not "anti-choice"

"And let me say that I don't think there are too many people on DU who are anti-choice. At least, there shouldn't be."

Here, I quote:

The OP said antifeminism. You said anti-choice. You made a claim about DU as if they were the same thing.

And again, what is the precise real-world meaning or agenda in terms of laws, legislatures, and public policy pertaining to this issue, if it is NOT about reproductive freedom?

Particularly in light of the sentence you felt you needed to quote from my previous post.

So, again I ask- if the real-world policy implications and context, what do you believe these issues are about, if not reproductive choice first and foremost? Clearly, when the OP talks about the "vagina" flap (sorry, I know) and about the lives of wives, sisters, etc. being on the line and debated in state houses, the context is the "debate" (because people believe they are entitled to tell other people what to do and how to live their lives, IMHO) over reproductive freedom, choice, birth control, etc.

If it's NOT about that, in terms of law, policy, etc... to you, what IS it about?

feminism mean to you?

you answer my questions?

There is more to it than one issue, encompassed in other aspects of Equality and Freedom.

"And let me say that I don't think there are too many people on DU who are anti-choice. At least, there shouldn't be."

Would you also say:

And let me say that I don't think there are too many people on DU who are anti-feminism. At least, there shouldn't be.

?

Is there some reason you are bothered by placing this discussion in the proper legislative and public policy context, i.e. reproductive rights?

focusing on what I actually said, not your red herrings. You haven't answered the initial point. Never mind.

You seem highly intelligent. How you parse out being pro-choice and for woman's rights and anti-feminist is up to you.

Maybe it's something else, then?

of course.

something they aren't.



I can say unequivocally that I support full reproductive rights, choice, freedom, personal self-determination, and I oppose the anti-Feminist war on women which is being waged in State Capitols and legislatures against those things.

Can you?

I am of the opinion that the ultimate source of right-wing politics in the 20th and 21st centuries is (and has been) the dramatic shift in power relations between the genders that we have seen over the past 140 years or so. Sure, the 1% leans toward fascism to protect its wealth and power, primarily, but how does one explain that nearly 50% of us (including many women) vote for Republicans? Those people, I believe, are fighting for men and for masculinity because they can see how dramatically the power balance has been disrupted. I say that without judgment. This dramatic cultural shift is neither good not bad. It just is, and it has had a significant impact.

-Laelth

and this Right Wign shooting itself in the third leg seems part of it. Maybe enuff ppl will get a clue ... finally. This "centrist" commentary is an example of how. And eventually, most men understand that they're all related to women somehow

You expect people to tolerate your corporatism, militarism, and pro-gun views, but want to call foul on others' perceived sexism. In large part the same people waging the war on women are also in favor of bloated military budgets, no gun laws, corporate rule, union busting, public school elimination, and so on. At some point you are going to have to choose a candidate who most closely represents you. You might have a tough choice.

rich

And your comment makes sense. Being procorporatism at this point makes as much sense as waiting in line for Newt G's signature.

Why are you not preaching to the ones you side with on many issues who are the source of the problem?

But most of the alerts are voted "Leave It" and many of the jurors give snide remarks.

I've met some really wonderful young men and women in the last few years and it does give me hope for the future.

There should be massive demonstrations

go figure. that one took me all afternoon and into the night to get unmad.

you were typing on a phone, huh? lol

And have been voting for Democrats at the national level for 30 years or as long as they have been legally able for the reason that the Republican party has generally been against women's rights.
I guess that I don't understand why as a Centrist that you being concerned about the assault on women's rights is a big deal. For some women this is and has always been the deciding issue.