People were trying to get fresh air from the windows and it would not suprise me if in the chaos and confusion at least a few people ended up being pushed out.

of an awful, awful day.

I was sick when I realized what was happening. There are a few moments that stand out for me from that day.
The first is my boss swinging her office door open, white as a sheet, saying a plane had hit the towers.
"It doesn't seem right," she said.
We went in to watch the TV in her office. Talking heads were speculating it was a small engine plane.
As we watched, I saw plane number two.
I let out a sound of pure human terror when I saw it fly into the building.
"That was another plane," I screamed.
My boss and co-worker both said "no, no"
"It was a replay, they found footage of it as it happened"
I said "no... that just happened. Something is wrong"
They were both still shaking their heads when the anchor said it was a second plane.

Watching those buildings raining smoke and fire was heartbreaking in a way I can't even express. All I could think of were the people inside. Surely help would make it up to them, I thought. It had to.

And then I realized I was seeing people jump.

That's when I started to shake. When it hit me that what they were in such hell that there was no hope.

The other moment that stands out, that I always think about, is watching the first tower fall. As it went, I wailed. I felt liked I'd been punched in the stomach. I remember thinking, How many souls just left this earth? How many parents aren't going home tonight?

When the second tower fell, I almost threw up.
Again, my co-workers said it was just a replay.
I wish it had been.

That day was just black from the moment the office door swung open to when I finally fell asleep later that night, sobbing for the thousands of people who were just... gone.

You mention it in two different ways: The second tower being struck by a jet, and the second tower collapsing. Even as they're watching it live on television, people can't immediately process the enormity of what they're seeing: "It was just a replay." I think our minds have developed these mechanisms to protect our psychological health; the reality is just too much to face all at once.

for the days training. A coworker called me, and said a plane hit the tower. When the second plane flew in I said "I thought they didn't have video of the crash". It took a couple seconds to click in.

burned into my memory

Hiwever, attributing the reluctance to spotlight/acknowledge the most heart-wrenching images of that day has nothing to do with religion. That is quite a stretch.

Who cares? Suicide is really an issue here? They had two choices, both of them life-ending. Why would anyone want to sully their decision? I cannot even imagine, so I surely won't criticize.

Those were disturbing images they could not show on TV.

It had ZILCH to do with courage or cowardice. What a ridiculous idea.

Some of those who died had life insurance policies that would pay off if they were murdered or died accidentally but not if they committed suicide. I vaguely recall that this was mentioned at the time in connection with the medical examiner's official classification. I don't know if any insurance carrier decided to take the PR hit of trying to contest coverage.

Life insurance policies normally exclude suicide only for the first year or two. After that, suicide is covered.

And what kind of an imbecile thinks that life insurance was foremost in the thoughts of those people in the towers in those perilous moments?

A couple of hundred people either jumped, fell or were pushed from the buildings. It is impossible to know who they were and how they came to their ends. Accordingly, when you wrote the &quot L)ife insurance policies exclude suicide for the first year or two," there is no way to know who's policy might have had the suicide exclusion in effect. Additionally, your statement is too generalized as there are many life insurance policies that exclude payment of benefits in the event of suicide. In fact, it was murder as none of the victims would have lost their lives if the hijackers hadn't attacked with the intent to kill people.

More importantly, the medical examiner is required to list a cause of death on the certificates they issue. It's understandable that New York City's Chief Medical Officer would classify these victims' demise as homicide. The survivors of all the victims who fell to their deaths that day would be entitled, by law, to death certificates; these are among the required documents to settle anyone's estate.

Lastly, Jim Lane did not imply that the victims made their life-ending decisions based on their life insurance policies. And I agree with him that no insurance company was going to challenge any death-benefit claims.

if they contested coverage over that, they'd be crucified in the media.

Those souls all faced a horrific choice in ways to die.

not surprising considering the source, but this:

"But there are other, more complicated, reasons. In the aftermath of this attack on America’s sovereign territory — a period of intense patriotism — some considered that to choose to die rather than be killed showed a lack of courage.

And in this country of intense religious fervour, many believe that to be a ‘jumper’ was to choose suicide rather than accept the fate of God — and suicide in whatever circumstances is considered shameful or, indeed, a sin that will send you to Hell"


is just completely made up. I've never heard anyone say anything remotely like that about those people.

these people were MURDERED

Die by fire or die by impact, either way it was homicide.

It's more likely people don't like to talk about it, because it's almost too horrifying to contemplate. It was one of the worst aspects of the tragedy. I can't imagine a more frightening decision to have to make. I don't think I will ever go into another tall building.

meaning if you commit this highly significant sin, you will go to hell - the reasoning they argue is something like you don't have a chance to ask for God's forgiveness before you die - which clearly would not apply to these individuals even if, in theory, they are considered suicides, since in the 10 seconds it takes to hit the ground, perhaps they all asked for God's forgiveness? If that is possible, then they must be given every benefit of the doubt.

Additionally, the heat from the fire and the suffocation that occurs from both smoke and the fire's thirst for oxygen would prompt an irresistible "flee" response.

Setting all that aside, I feel dirty giving any effort to forming a reply to Daily Fail rag-level creative speculation which they sell as journalism.

While suicide is generally classed as a mortal sin, there can be mitigating factors, such as being in such pain and confusion that the primal animal brain takes over and a person takes what looks like a means of saving themselves that turns out to be fatal. Or, as the OP states, some people tried to make parachutes which failed: making a choice between sure death if one stays and a 99.999999...% chance is not a sin.

This issue came up at the time, and if I recall Catholic officials declared that the jumpers were not suicides. Either way, it's a decision I hope I never have to make.

"many say-believe-tthink" etc

Just like "there are those who say"
"some people say-thing-feel" etc

Name your sources or else label the writing as something as other than news.

It's insulting and horrific.

These humans weren't shown on the news because what happened to them was horrifying. Families of the victims and NYers and children and Americans and humans worldwide all had trauma as a result of this. They didn't need extra speculation about this type of thing.

The 3000+ people were murdered. That's all that matters.

to suggest some stigma to the act--in the most impossible of circumstances-- is beyond inhuman IMO.

Who thinks like that?

The Daily Mail made it up.

In all the years since 9/11 I've never heard anyone say that. Never.

who wrote the article.

Never heard any other human being express that thought.

...briefs up to the day of the attacks.

She makes Cheney look positively honorable.

not only for 9/11, but also for Iraq.

The woman is like a robot, I doubt she's had a human emotion in her life.

is almost too horrible to contemplate. I cannot imagine a worse way to go.

I cannot believe this is actually being recommended.

Of all the pro and con revisionist history of 9/11, I never heard anyone claim the people who jumped were cowards.

When a wall of intense fire, smoke and fumes is pouring like a heat tsunami at you, there is almost zero choice but to back away and in many cases those people were pushed right out the windows by the flames.

The whitewashing is forgetting that some chose to jump...

It was a perfectly natural response to the disaster, yet it is taboo to discuss.

No one was a coward on 9/11 save for Bush Cheney and other leadership who chose to hide rather than lead.

The "jumpers" have always been openly discussed from day one, and I have never seen a reference to them as being anything other than victims who were murdered in the attacks.

It has never been "taboo to discuss".

The photos of the jumpers were not widely publicized out of respect, not because of any "whitewashing".

As someone on this thread astutely observed, those photos were tantamount to "snuff porn"

First, it's not about the photos or that people jumped. For the record, I think the pictures violate the privacy of the people who did jump. Snuff porn is a good description for those who seek them out.

What I was against is the notion that most of the people did not make a conscious choice to the matter. Maybe it's me, but I have had discussions with people who did not accept people would/could make such a decision to jump - rather it's the winds, or the flames, or something pushed them out.

It hasn't been whitewashed in the least bit. Shit, a lot of the eyewitnesses describe that as the first thing that really shocked them and the camera guys even had a number of zoom shots....

One show was dedicated to finding out who a jumper was...

The Falling Man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man

9/11: The Falling Man is a 2006 documentary film about the picture and the story behind it. It was made by American filmmaker Henry Singer and filmed by Richard Numeroff, a New York-based director of photography. The film is loosely based on Junod's Esquire story. It also drew its material from photographer Lyle Owerko's pictures of falling people. It debuted on March 16, 2006, on the British television network Channel 4. It later made its North American premiere on Canada's CBC Newsworld on September 6, 2006, and has been broadcast in over 30 countries. The U.S. premiere was September 10, 2007, on the Discovery Times Channel.

The novel Falling Man, by Don DeLillo, is about the September 11 attacks. The "falling man" in the novel is a performance artist recreating the events of the photograph.[14] DeLillo says he was unfamiliar with the title of the picture when he named his book. The artist straps himself into a harness and jumps from an elevated structure in a high visibility area (such as a highway overpass), hanging in the pose of The Falling Man.

It's not about "if" people jumped, it's to the "why". I've run into too many people who are in denial that people *chose* to jump given the circumstances. Rather, they believe they were pushed out, sucked out, etc.

L-

I suspect my experience is more common than yours.

I deal with too many conspiroids and air-heads...

L-

Who has forgotten there were individuals who jumped? Who is whitewashing this? Who says it's taboo to discuss? There is no collective will stating any one of the particulars above, merely odd individuals of no real standing or influence. Unless...

The Illuminati? the Rothschild's?

n/t

What I'm saying is they chose to jump rather than walk into an intense wall of fire closing in on them. They could not go any further down the building or out the room. They chose one way to die over another.

Save your nitpicking and "edgy" bullshit for someone else.

Have a nice day.

Last edited Mon Sep 12, 2016, 01:17 AM - Edit history (2)

. . . that fact is mentioned in nearly every article or documentary one sees about 9-11. The suggestion that choosing not to publish images of them falling -- which amounts to publishing snuff porn -- is specious and disgusting.

And as to the article's suggestion that there has been an air of judgment in this country about those who jumped, I have never heard or seen, from the lips or pen of any American, a single word of judgment concerning those who made that choice.

I believe it was the Daily Mail that published a photograph from 9-11 of a group of young people sitting on the Queens side of the East River as the towers burned. At the instant the photograph was taken, the five or six people in the photo happened not to be looking directly at the towers, but at each other as they were engaged in conversation. The photo was published with the scurrilous suggestion that it was indicative of American 'indifference' to the events of that day.

You should really choose sources that are at least a little better than a right-wing, British tabloid rag!

is and always has been suitable only for lining the birdcage or wrapping the fish and chips. It should not be cited as a source for news on DU any more than the US Enquirer is.

They were murdered

That act does not let Al Qaeda off the hook for those deaths. They were murdered. They only had one slight choice on how to die.

The only ones I saw saying this are writers in the MSM claiming that people are saying it. They never give an example of anybody.

I find the idea of ascribing an idea to "many" people useless. This sounds mostly made up. It's the standard garbage on Daily Mail.

What does that even mean?

And I have never heard any discussion about "suicide" versus homicide.

No competent ME is going to call it suicide when a person jumps from a burning building. First of all, in many cases, there is no way to know if someone actually jumped or were blown out of the windows. If the windows were intact you are not going to be able to get out. That is thick tempered glass and an explosion strong enough to break out a window could easily take people with it.

And just how horrific it was for them.

questioning their unspeakable choices that day. If you've ever had a burn, you know how excruciating even a small one can be. Imagine how it would feel to have a wall of flames coming at you.

When I think of that day, I think most of the folks in the planes and the ones that jumped. Shame on anybody who criticizes even one of them or their choices.

On edit: Just the fact that some desperately tried to make a parachute proves that they didn't want to die. Jesus Christ.