that doesn't blindly follow is showing a lack of "ally ship". A bridge too far. They have rights as well.

They have the right to stand if they want, but they are not being supportive, they are not being an ally.

If you don't want people to criticize people for kneeling during the national anthem, and I don't, then you can't say that those who do stand are racist or not allies of those who kneel.

It's unfair.

I always stand for the NA or pledge of Allegiance, but I would whole-heartedly defend anybody who doesn't want to do so.

You are talking at cross purposes

But somebody who stands for the National Anthem at a sporting event is automatically considered not an ally of people? I'm appalled at all the people calling for Kaepernick and everyone else who stays seated or kneeling to be punished. And I'm actually vocal about it in real life. There are others much more vocal about it. And there are plenty of African Americans involved in civil rights actions and work who still choose to stand. They are definitely allies. To say that they aren't because they stand? Ridiculous.

they are really not the same thing.

that being said, people can be allies in different ways. I don't think not participating in one protest makes one not an ally.

It was patriotism, coupled with reverse back-masking. Cool intro video with this song:

Got it. And not surprised coming from you.

It can be difficult to tell these days...

Standing is very obviously a failure to express solidarity, whether deliberately or out of ignorance.

Like asking someone who is Asian, after they tell you they're from somewhere in the US, "Where are you REALLY from?"

More examples of racial micro aggressions here: https://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/racial-microagressions-you-hear-on-a-daily-basis?utm_term=.ys1DaZ7J7g#.gpbBojm5m3

Though micraoaggressions can be homophobic, or ableist, or whatever.

The word "micro" is a recognition that they aren't big deals, they're little things. But they are still offensive, and when they happen over and over and over again, it gets annoying.

automatically not supportive either? Of course not

It is amazing to me how many people fail to look beyond the end of their own nose to see the obvious just because they want to believe their own biases. People can agree or disagree with these protests without being labeled as long as they do so in good faith. So no questioning the patriotism of those who don't stand or implying that those who do don't care. It just makes people look shortsighted and unable to actually think critically.

The suggestion that blacks are monolithic in thought and behavior is extremely ignorant. Skin color does not automatically convey allyship.

Consider:

I have talked with black friends about their personal reflections on discovering internalized
racism towards themselves and their black peers.

Proximity to whiteness and white supremacy can be empowering. See Ben Carson and Herman Cain and their slew of racist remarks. In what universe would anyone consider them allies to this cause?

There is also a reluctance to act out of fear of their kids being ostracized, losing their jobs, etc.

Black people are not monolithic and the question displays a common lack of insight.

And when you say "micro-aggression" you might as well be saying "yahoo serious film festival" to me.

"yahoo serious film festival"

because

"I am Loki ScarLip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki LieSmith. I am Loki who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

sit on top of the big hill
sitting time fucked up again

etc
etc
etc

N/t

Just become someone chooses to protest, does not mean others have to join the protest.

Be it blocking public streets, shouting down public speakers, or what have you, they expect you to shut up, pay attention to them, and not complain about how it's inconveniencing you, because dammit, THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, and their opinion is more important than anyone elses!!!

I'm going to assume this is a halfassed attempt to troll the board.

'I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color'

At that point everyone has to examine their priorities.

White people who take a knee? Great.
White people who still stand? I wonder..
Non-black POC who take a knee? Great.
Any POC who still stands? There's always that Uncle Tom..

is one of the most insulting things I've ever read toward people of color.

Standing for the National Anthem makes them Uncle Tom's???

I'm pissed off about that classification. It's the most obnoxious thing I've read all week.

The power structure of this country is set up for whites (Caucasians) to benefit off the backs and the misery of African Americans and other People of Color.

Sadly, there are always a few, whether African American, Asian American, or Latino Americano, who find it easier to submit to this power structure - in other words, act like Uncle Toms and House N***ers - than to fight the power structure.

So no, I won't make any apologies for my post.

People can stand for the National fucking Anthem and still be powerful forces of change.

Calling anybody an Uncle Tom or, worse (as you did) bc they choose to stand for something that they were taught to stand for their whole lives? Way to alienate people. (Especially at the beginning of a movement.)

Demanding everyone fall in line or be labeled a racist or "Uncle Tom"

UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE

and on a Democratic website, no less

it is pathetic

It is.

everyone must agree with ME and do what I do - or they are "suspect".

Is that microaggression?

This is all such bs.

but according to post 23, he's an uncle tom.

::eyeroll::

If he doesn't do everything I want him to all of the time.

It's a disregard of the very real observations that have led the players to kneel.

Everyone must believe what I believe that is the only way we can be free!!!!!!

This unfortunate Libertarian philosophy that freedom means abandoning respect and basic decency is exactly what appeals to Trump supporters.

Anyone who is willing to do that should just admit to a disregard for the fear people of color live with daily, and sing the additional verses loudly and proudly.

and it's the pesky philosophy of "freedom" (heavy sigh heavy sigh eye roll) what defends the conscience of the unpopular protestor.

What authoritarians never seem to get, is that with their fetish for censoring media that annoys them or shutting down dissenting opinions they don't like, before long the wheel will come around and it will be their opinions being censored.

who think it's insulting to sit or take a knee when the anthem is playing? What if they're vets who honor their flag? Where is the respect for them? This entire thread makes me think DUers have lost their fucking minds with this. Everyone HAS to do it your way or they're dirt?

There are valid reasons for kneeling or standing. I respect people who do either.

What I don't respect is the:

"If you don't stand for the National Anthem, leave this country!"

or the

"If you don't kneel during the National Anthem, you aren't an ally or.. if you are an African American, you are an Uncle Tom!"


Both attitudes freaking stink!

to such obnoxious, authoritarian-minded people? If you really consider people enemies for not conforming to your every little wish, then enjoy getting nowhere. You need allies, and it's a two-way street. Sorry.

It's allies or not allies. A person who refuses to join people in opposition to a racist anthem celebrating a racist system is not necessarily an enemy. But they are not an ally.
Being unwilling to challenge the white supremacist status quo can come from a lot of places. But that unwillingness itself is a symbolic gesture of acceptance of white supremacy whether a person knows it or not.

Despite my positions on civil rights. I value freedom over the kind of "do what I say, do what I do, you're either with us or against us" authoritarianism being advocated here.

I'd rather be seen as a non-ally over being seen as an authoritarian.

It is disingenuous to claim to support a challenge to injustices earlier but reject the protests and actions intended to call attention to a system that enables vociferous racism.

Black Americans are now saying stop killing us and white people keep redirecting the conversation to themselves.
"But I'm insulted because I am a true patriot who pledges allegiance to symbols regardless of the racism embedded in them."
"My feelings are hurt because I'm not racist and should be respected by the people who object despite my denial of the experience of racism."

I never thought I'd see the obnoxiousness posted in this thread.

...loyalsister has apparently poured a lot of time into making white people feel guilty for things they have no control over. They even point to a campaign against someone who chooses to view people as individuals and didn't buy into her groups ideals as going against racism in the media. This is someone who sees any effort they perceive to be less than theirs as not enough.

Whatever anyone does it would never be enough for them.

Or, everyone must believe as you do to prevent this place from "officially losing its mind." Both premises seem equally flawed... and equally self-indulgent.

Good try.

......they are not allies, right?

There is a distinction between friends and allies. Friends may pay lip service and go as far as their profession will allow but they don't always show themselves to be truly committed allies. Allies lay it on the line and show support with action.

Staying in the comfort zone enables white supremacy. I suspect they know that and also feel that the best option is to broker a deal. It is otherwise known as "balancing interests." Full commitment does not allow for compromise. Friends and part time allies are welcome, but criticism of a lack of commitment is not off limits.

And by Hades nipple, if you dont comply with whoever is talking the loudest. Well, if they claim you are a racist, you are a racist. If they say you are an Uncle Tom, guess what?

Lordt give these peeps strength.

Sheesh...

At best we can expect that people wont threaten to lynch kids who take a knee during the anthem. So as long as non poc are not being violent towards protestors or attempting to shut them down, that's as much as anyone can expect.

I don't expect non POC to join protests. I expect them to not condemn protesters.

If that is trying to create division, that so be it.

If there were no racist there would be no protest.

Yet I am sure it never even once crossed your mind that the people condemning the protesters are the same folks they are protesting against.


Nope must be everyone is a racist set against black people.

This whole I heard it somewhere so that is what everyone that group thinks is the most bigoted bunch of bs I have ever seen here. Quite surprising that the ones saying it are supposedly the most in touch with bigotry.

One would think being so in touch with racism you would recognize it coming out if your mouth but clearly that is not the case.

Apparently it is just your turn to be bigoted no matter what kind of mental gymnastics are required to achieve it

I think what Collin is doing is great. I think the bullshit you are trying to pull is repugnant..

The difference between being an ally and not being racist.

Your outrage comes from your own lack of knowledge.

With such bold statements.

if we had so many allies, we'd have less racism. problem is we don't have that many allies.

You have many allies when you define it so narrowly.

Last edited Thu Sep 15, 2016, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)

As not being racist.

Beat me to it

you have been appropriately conditioned to respond on cue.

I will put it like this.

I stand and place my hand over my heart during the National Anthem for the same reasons they are kneeling. I don't do it because I think we are a perfect union. I don't do it because I think we have beat misogyny or racism. I do it because I believe I am honoring a greater good, a sense of community and coming together, and the ability of our country to undergo great changes when demanded. That is probably why I also have great respect for their protests in this arena. I feel we are doing slightly different things with the same thoughts in mind.

At it's best, at it's best ROFLMAO

it's the old "toss a flashbang into the room" and see what happens play.

Who takes the bait and who just walks away shaking their head?

Could be ignorance. Could be racism. Could be aggression.
Could be lack of alignment with the way the point is being made (no matter how empathetic).


Would a lack of willingness for whites to join the protest in St. Louis by carrying shotguns and rifles show a lack of allyship? Or maybe just a lack of agreement in the nature of the protest?

Who knows - you'll have to ask them...all.


PoC can think whatever they like, and likely they will. They will likely be right some percentage of the time.

.......a personal preference not to participate in that particular form of protest, even when agreeing with the underlying reason for the protest.

I would not join in, personally. It's not because I don't understand and empathize with the reasons for the protest, because I do. It's because I choose not to express my support for those reasons by disrespecting the flag and National Anthem. And my choice in how I go about my own self-expression is every bit as valid for me as theirs is for them.

In the end, no one gets to dictate how (or if) I show my support.

(no matter how empathetic)"

Totally understood, and agree.

Completely arbitrary "subtexts", depending on the person.

to decide that form of protest is absolute. One may protest police brutality in many ways. One is not required to believe that not standing for the US national anthem is essential to that protest.

We're locked in a too-close election battle where the concept of patriotism is in flux, and we want folks to reject the National Anthem?

Idiocy.

And why are asking the question when you know the answer? Giving a white person a hard time because they support a POC is racism.

To try to stop people from standing if they wish or shaming them for it is just as bad as people trying to stop the quiet statements that are occurring.

The only expectation is for whites to both understand the perspective of black views are and to support them. It's not necessary for whites to actually jump out in front to black people whenever we're speaking up for ourselves.

What's more important is for white allies to confront and oppose anti-black bias IN OTHER WHITES.

Black people have their own minds about what to do. The problem occurs whenever anyone takes the side of white oppression of people of color, no matter who they are.

give someone the Big Word a Day Calendar!

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein"

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins383803.html

whites should take a knee just because a person of color does. It's also absurd.

the typical taunts, diversions, and disrespect that they often respond with.

For example, this op.

I think two different people may support the same thing in two wholly different ways. I'd stand. I'd also feel a sense of pride being associated with anyone who didn't stand. I think you're looking for a sin where none exists.

While certainly we can read many, many unambiguously bigoted responses in regards to his refusal to stand, I have no objective or measurable reason to believe that a failure of that refusal is, all other things being equal, simply a different, yet benign path.

So I doubt it.

Whether by satirical design or earnest stupidity, this question illustrates how idiotic this new fad-grievance-double-speak trend really is.

Wow simply hilarious. Also remarkable is the strange compulsion to "identify" with something, no matter how ridiculous, and ascribe some higher meaning to it in an angst ridden, and self congratulatory way of demonstrating some warped sense of enlightenment.

Too funny...