You have a right, even to stupid speech.

The linking of the arms of the whole team.

We are all in this life together, is the message they send. We are all each other's brothers and sisters. We are here for each other.

It's just one reason why the 12s are so enthusiastic about their team.

is dumb, ridiculous, arrogant and stupid? Disapproval of police killings is a point of view she would "strongly take issue with"?

I always though she was one of the good ones, but apparently just another authoritarian.

I merely responded to what she said.

But it's a moot point now since Ginsburg has retracted those comments.

thread has kicked it back up to the top of the page.

Am I on DU? (I haven't been here in awhile since a lot of liberals seemed to be leaving.)

Has Justice Ginsburg taken a strong stance on police violence? She was a close friend of the late Justice Scalia.

Would she have been a close friend of a black, left-oriented Supreme Court justice who endorsed and excused violence against whites, and demeaned white people, i.e. if the race of Justice Scalia were reversed?

Or would such a person be a social pariah, and not invited to Ginsburg's Capitol Hill luncheons, or Texas ranches?

And while you're at it, be grateful for Ginsburg's continued presence on the Supreme Court---and Scalia's permanent absence from it.

Ginsburg is entitled to express her viewpoints, as is Kaepernick. And you're entitled to your viewpoints, thanks for jurists like Ginsburg.

Apparently, she isn't sensitive enough if she'd rather go after the protesters instead of going after their reason for protesting.

TIL protesting racial discrimination is "dumb and disrespectful"

I guess if you have an opinion about something or someone, you're 'going after' them.

i side with the football player on this issue.

Kap has done little to bring attention to the plight of innocent black's being gunned down. What he has done is brought attention to whether we should stand/sit/etc for the anthem. It has become a free speech protest. NOW, I completely agree with his right to express himself and what he is protesting is noble, but the message has gotten lost in all this. Every stinking argument about Kaep seems to be based on nationalism, patriotism (even faux) and free speech...seldom anymore do I hear any real conversation about police brutality served against black citizens as part of this discussion, at least in relation to Kaep's current stand.

And to me THIS is exactly what the authoritarians want...change the issue from REAL problems (black men getting gunned down) to what is essentially a bullshit issue (standing for a song).

Defending the irrational isn't easy, even for a supreme court justice.

Most of the people who reactively leap to pose in genuflection to the flag or the national anthem, are utterly clueless about the constitution.

.. in an informed position to evaluate her statements.

Free clue: it ain't what you seem to think.

Last edited Wed Oct 12, 2016, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

to elucidate a coherent arguement for her disagreement, instead of labelling what she doesn't like, with slurs.

Quite frankly, she doesn't have any business telling black men how they should peacefully protest the injustice they experience. And calling them "stupid" and "arrogant", is just beyond the pale. Her words are very offensive, it's just that simple. Her past decisions are irrelevant, in my opinion. She clearly exsists in an ivory tower, now.

Peoples' irrational reaction to these protests, is a simple matter of indoctrination from propaganda that maintains their consent for militarism, nothing more.

Taking issue with his form of protest rather talking about what he is protesting.

It's also telling in what seems to be outraging people more - his actions as opposed to what he is acting against.

You'll hear people claim that more people would be willing to listen to concerns if only those who are discriminated against would voice those concerns in a manner that isn't offensive (to the dominating culture). And people say this without once hearing themselves speak.

Kaepernick is very respectfully not engaging in a collective homage to a symbol (and a song can be a symbol). A symbol imbued with feelings (unity, national identity, etc..) that do not reflect the reality of America. The pledge claims "with liberty and justice for all" - yet that isn't the reality of America either.

(“When there’s significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it’s supposed to represent in this country, I’ll stand,” Kaepernick said earlier this month.)

The man is quietly kneeling. Nothing disrespectful in his act. What is shameful, though not the least bit surprising, is people taking offense to a protest against the depth of denial in America - of how some people want to see America (through symbols espousing ideals that don't match reality) and how it actually is in America for people of color.

People can pretend, and they do, that they would be more willing to listen if only Kaepernick had done something else, but that's bullshit.

The same people taking offense now would have taken offense to anything Kaepernick said or did simply because he is challenging ingrained attitudes and beliefs (patriotism/nationalism is taught; affected), and using the symbols of that conditioning to expose the hypocrisy of it all.

Word.

This board needs more of it.

As a sitting SC Justice? But it's not outside purview to opine on stuff "everybody" agrees with. Pauline Kael principle.

I, being part of the "everybody", simply don't agree with her.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I feel for them, though. I just can't reach them.

My issue with Kaep is that his chosen protest simply isn't very effective. I couldn't care less about standing for the flag. I've not stood for the anthem before, for no particular reason other than that I didn't feel like it. I've never been a flag worshiper in the least or given it a second thought.

However, immediately once he started doing it, this became about what the "proper" respect should be given about the flag. Absolutely everything about what he was protesting was lost.

His protest is not even the slightest bit offensive to me. It's extremely ineffective however.

But it didn't have to go there, just safer to go there. Safer to wax patriotic than to talk about racism in America. Safer, and easier. For some people. Those who took offense are the only ones responsible for any diversion away from his protest - well, them and those who enable them by encouraging the diversion in any way.

Kaepernick did not cause the diversion - the offended did with their outrage. But that's to be expected from certain quarters. Easier to attack POC who protest racism and injustice than it is to address the concerns of the people protesting. Easier to make it about wrapping themselves in the flag than it is to deal with their denial.

Blaming him in any way is just another diversion. It goes from his method of protest to how it's not effective - because the offended refuse to address the reason behind the protest and would rather talk about the method. That's all on the offended - not on Kaepernick.


His protest, and the nature of the offense by the offended, has highlighted the hypocrisy behind those offended feelings. And given the widespread discourse, I'd say he was very effective in exposing that hypocrisy.


Whether or not anyone wants to hear the message is on them. You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think. (to borrow a phrase)

Whether or not anyone wants to hear the message is on them. You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think.

You're telling him he needs to change his ways so as to better appeal to racists. He's a black man - he will never appeal to racists.

And he will never appeal to those who would rather be offended by a black man protesting racism in America than to address the actual problem of racism.

If people shut their eyes, ears, and hearts to his message, it's because they never wanted to hear it to begin with.

POC being attacked for protesting injustices and racism in America, especially by the well meaning, is nothing new. People, with their good intentions, and always only wanting to help, have always criticized the method of protest calling it unproductive or not conducive to achieving change.

It was from a position of white privilege when MLK, Jr. was told to change his methods and it's still the same kind of thinking today.

I am acknowledging the reality that if he wants to effectively accomplish what he wants to, he would be better served by changing his strategy.

I'm not blaming him for anything. Only stating that what he's doing isn't effective. If he wants to continue an ineffective tactic, that's his right.

The fight for equality continues.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that just because Bull Connor is dead that racism is over. Jim Crow is alive and well in America. Just because black people aren't being hosed down in the road by police doesn't mean they aren't being gunned down in the streets by police.

Yes, black people can sit anywhere on the bus - but just try being a black man hailing a cab after nightfall.

Yes, black people can shop anywhere - as long as they don't mind being followed around like they're serial killers.

Job discrimination still exist. Housing discrimination still exist. The right to vote is still a fight. The right to exist is still a struggle.
Systemic racism still exist.

MLK, Jr. didn't win the war. He won some battles. The war continues.

Stop trying to tell a black man to tailor his protest so as to not offend the sensibilities of racists and nationalistic hypocrites. Because that's all you're doing.

"changing his strategy", you say - but what you're failing to understand is that it wouldn't matter how he protested - racists would find a reason to find fault. He could wrap himself in the flag while humming the "Battle Hymn of the Republic", and he would still be attacked for his methods because he was protesting against racism in America, and not just racism but police violence against black Americans in America.

All anyone has to do is look at the jingoistic, hyper-nationalistic response to his simple act of defiance against an institutional system of racism to know Kaepernick struck all the right nerves.

assuming he had a desired goal of engaging relevant discussion he has not struck the right nerves.

have no problems with the blatantly racist and slavery supporting other verses to that anthem.

I guess it's good that a SC justice doesn't want to have him jailed for it, but what about those other verses?

Everyone see Bryant Gumbel's HBO Real Sports analysis of this issue, it is frightening.

Covers the history of the anthem (and racist lyrics about slavery within)

The recent spate of forced flag-standing during the 7th-inning stretch for God Bless America in MLB
(especially at Yankee Stadium) led by a coalition of military and "first responders" (read Giuliani NYC Cops)

(many of whom identify themselves as part of the military, and part of the fascist Trump coalition)

The literal giant-flag-waving and worship at ballparks by military men, and the fact that no other country on earth except Russia and China do this sort of thing;

The fact that the flag salute originated as the fascist salute, in the same period as Mussolini became popular, and was supplanted by the "hand over heart" in 1942

The supplanting of "America the Beautiful" (a much better song) with "God Bless America"

(a shitty and frankly blasphemous song) (and jingoistic)

The fact that the national anthem used to be a drinking song

whose tune I might add is very poorly reviewed among music critics, meaning it is objectively dissonant, covers too many octaves, and not a classically well-written choral tune.

Or whichever series they was robbed in (was it 2001?) in the wake of 9/11.

Maybe they've caved to jingoism since then.

about his own musical genius than it is about the song.

...I suppose someone had to do it, since Scalia isn't here anymore.

You know whats dumb and disrespectful? Attacking the protesters, rather than what they're protesting. It shouldn't take that much sensitivity to see that they're protesting the systemic discrimination that minorities are victims to in this nation.

It was a gesture of protest that obviously involved some amount of reflection and then boldness of action, and further, he must have known that he was going to piss off a number of his fans, maybe even most of them.

It was a deliberately disrespectful expression, and it's his 1st amendment right to do that.

BUT... He has the right to do it and it has brought a lot of attention to black lives matter and generated a dialogue. So maybe it wasn't so dumb. Idk. She's entitled to her opinion and he's entitled to his. I basically just said a lot of nothing.

but as soon as she's not, I hope she' quietly retires to her 'ranch' and I never hear anything from her ever again. It's the reason for the protest!!!!!!!!! But AA's are supposed to ALWAYS figure out a way to demonstrate without upsetting white people, it seems. Fuck that.

citizens to be gunned down for no reason, with little or no recourse. Actually, it's reprehensible, disgusting, and horrifying.

Not sure why Ginsburg felt the need to get so nasty about someone who is trying (probably in vain) to bring about change.

The flag is an inanimate object. Why are people, especially Christians, demanding blind worship of a symbol? Ginsburg and others should save their outrage for humans who are violated, hurt, and killed!

She didn't say anything original.