Thanks Huey!

But they just keep on trying to impose their uniformed opinion on everyone not even realizing just how stupid they are making themselves look.

But what would motivate such people? If Koch paid millions to Manufacture Consent though the corporate media, paid a Tech guy 20,000 to flip the votes, I wonder...could they afford to hire internet posters and send them out to shut up any questions about the election?

And if they did hire people to shut us up...that means we are right. WE cannot let them get away with this!!!

Nobody's offered me any money, worse luck. If they did, I'd take it in a heartbeat, create an account for trolling, and make the stupidest posts I could imagine to fulfil my obligation.

Come to think of it, there are a couple of people at DU who apparently think I've already done that.

-- Mal

there was a time long ago when selling your morality out like that would be a shameful thing...but those days are long gone I guess..
But It shows that the propaganda of greed and selfishness laid on us for the last 30 years or so has worked...now everything is about the money...and nothing is about morality and truth.

and who else they might be paying, then I would expose them.

I am actually skeptical that there are "paid" trolls, since so many people would do it for love. When have you ever heard of a rich man parting with money he didn't have to?

-- Mal

Those companies will expect to see an increase in sales. The GOP is run like a business, so it's possible they might use the same tactic, agreed. I just doubt they'd have to.

-- Mal

other such corporations. But you're right, it could definitely be someone in a paid position with the Kochs.

Who are "they"? Who are "we"? Who are you?

Just like the lack of evidence doesn't prove vote rigging didn't not happen.

I think they might be interested in having verified voting as well.

They should be just as angry and adamant that we have elections that are hand counted, publicly.

They should be interested in the fact that our vote can be easily changed at the accuvote counter or the central tabulator.

They should be appalled some company out of a strip mall is in charge of counting the votes with secret software.


So we witnessed a revolution in Wisconsin, and huge reaction to Walker, massive get out the vote effort by Democrats (where Republicans hired out of state felons to get their signatures)...all indications point to the people demanding change.

WE have record turnout, exit polls showing the candidates are neck and neck...then oh, the exit polls were wrong, corporate media (paid record amounts for this 'election') tells us to eat shit and like it. Walker 'won' despite any evidence of support other than bought and paid for manufacture consent on the corporate media.

Now the talking head are bragging about the power of the tea party (even though they stopped holding rallies because their turnout was so poor they were embarrassing themselves) and how they will sweep the elections in Nov.

It is pretty freaking obvious that they are going to steal those too, since this was so fucking easy even after all the attention on Wisconsin.

Just how stupid are we going to let them make us look? Because we are letting them make us look pretty fucking stupid, lazy, brain dead and/or incapable of standing up to them.

Who here thinks Republicans would just sit back and take this abuse?

Collect your prize at the door on the way out.

And I am convinced that the fix is already in and the outcome of the election is known...and that explains why Romney is making no effort to win over minorities and don't give a shit if he has popular support.
the polls say it is 50/50 and that will not change much between now and November no matter how much Romney steps in it...and the media will constantly make it about Obama...
And yes they have there peps that try to shut down any talk of it being a fix...and do other things intended to demoralize us all into not voting at all and making it easy for them...and the primary weapon against us is the CT meme that they can use to intimidate us into silence because no one wants to be thought of as a CT nut...a part of the "grassy knoll" society that they created to put us in.

The solution is hard and it will require organization and leadership from the Dems...and I see few willing to do it.

As a lifelong Democrat, this is what I find most heart wrenching.

I've met my local State Senator, and said I was happy to come from the Senate Majority House speaker's district. Both men are Democrats, and my new Senator made a back-biting disparaging remark about the other Senator. I thought, WTF??? As long as Dems continue to be so individualistic, to care only about themselves and their careers, we're never going to be able to help each other. We have to truly care about the greater good, and not just give it lip service.

For instance in my county here in No Calif., some 40% of all the Republicans who are registered voters turned out this June election. Roughly the same number of Democrats turned out.

Five percent of that forty percent of Democrats voted by writing in someone other than Obama.

And eight percent of the Republicans that turned out voted for Ron Paul.

Then there was the 20% of all of us Lake County people who are not registered to support either the R's or the D's.

So roughly one quarter of all the voters I rub shoulders with are not on the bandwagon for either Obama or Mitt Romney. This is one dirty little secret that our Main$tream media folks do not want to mention. Elections are a big cash cow for the Big media.

In fact, back in 2008, one time when a caller into C Span was trying to get this point across: that each election, more and more people are tired of the major Parties, Brian Lamb looked more upset than I have ever seen him. He quickly decided that another segment of the show needed to go on, and dropped the caller.

But I don't think it is 50/50 at all...and I don't trust the polls any more than I trust Fox news...the media seems to be well managed to me...and like I Orwell said....he who controls the past controls the future and he who controls the present controls the past...and so it goes.

It's to frame a false argument to prevent the true argument.

The reason the right wing nuts are passing the voter fraud laws and requiring voter photo I.D's and purging voters is to 'hose down' the argument that there is no 'real' voter fraud by average people, which is true.

The voter fraud that is so damaging is in the system itself. Voter fraud is committed by people in power who are breaking laws left and right and getting away with it. If a private corporation can rob people and a political administration can beat people, taze people, torture people, murder people by the thousands in illegal wars and get away with it then they know committing systematic and technical voter fraud is a breeze.

When we say things like, "We don't need photo I.D' laws or purging because the percentage of voter fraud is infinitesimal and there is no voting fraud.", they say, "Why are you complaining about voting fraud when there is none."

Of election fraud!

How has this gone on so long is the real question?

And if they had a tool such as this to steal elections and it was this easy to get away with it, would they continue to use it?

in reaction the TeaPubliKlan essentially becoming the anti-government party and with that comes a defense of about any establishment institution no matter how dubious or obviously flawed or even failed they are because such concerns day add depth to the broad anti-government/distrust of institutions rhetoric of the opposition which results in a whole less focus on functional systems, good policy, quality and effectiveness of legislation, oversight, and law, transparency, or even if things are working or not and toward supporting government and established institutions for it's own sake, some figuring that "we'll fix it later" once the anti-government threat backs off some.

Voting goes dead to the heart of this delusional stance, if you question elections then you are effectively questioning the system it is used to populate. If the elections are crooked then there is little room for confidence in the actual machinery of government which plays into the TeaPubliKlan rhetoric and public disenchantment and distrust even if it is the TeaPubliKlans corrupting the system, better to pretend the system is essentially incorruptible and that no public person would actually lack the decency to cheat.

They don't want to risk sounding asinine and outright claim the cheating ass TeaPubliKlans don't cheat and they don't want the system questioned (especially when we are nominally running things) so the "third way" is to say prove it. Never mind that the impossibility of proving it is about at the root of the concerns.
They would love proof that could be used against the TeaPubliKlans but minus that smoking gun they want silence on the subject because it is not pro-government, pro-system, or pro-establishment.

A step further, we have some folks so married to the system that they would rather have the TeaPubliKlans run the show than risk any disruption and certainly are fine with assimilating their policies as long as it broadly maintains the status quo and builds acceptance of government which all their policies are designed to undercut or use the institutions we have to transfer power and wealth to the few.

all that is left to the masses is revolution.

"But my question is, why does there seem to be a team of people with the same excuses who seem very uneducated about our election systems but they are adamantly attacking anyone who questions it and they work tirelessly to shut people down."

I asked this question myself, over and over, and never got any kind of answer that satisfied me. I finally reached the conclusion that this team of people is real, and there is no rhyme nor reason for them.

There is some recent research suggesting that this team of people (and some of them are at least ostensibly on the left as well) are not open to logic or reason and that these people will not change regardless. There is something within me that wants to say "if only...then they would..." and blah blah.

There is no "if only" and they won't. They're not going to and it's irrational to expect that they will ever advance themselves or evolve.

So my big question is why we continue to wring our hands over them and expect them to ever be anything more than what they are?

These people are enabling fascism.

They have no shame, no guilt, no remorse...what are we supposed to do with them?

We cannot just let them continue, they are manufacturing a reality that none of us want to live with.

And that's why I don't think we can afford to pretend that they are anything more than what they are, which is in my opinion, fascists.

And you are right they cannot be changed...only controlled and their effects mitigated by the law...and in fact it is why we have laws...to protect us from them.

But over time many of them became the law and once that happens they can work with impunity.

But the biggest thing they accomplished over the last 40 years is to sell the new generation on a philosophy that suits them and makes them the good guy...the teachings of Ayn Rand and her notion and dogma of the Virtues of Selfishness....once we lost the principles that make us know that there is no virtue in selfishness we were surrounded by them and the very principles of a shared society was trashed.

It is really a blueprint for despotic rule....lose your morality then your soul and then they take it all.

?

But the first step is always recognizing the problem...I can do that and I have...and am trying to get others too...but beyond that I have no answers that anyone would like to hear.
And any answer I would give would not be acceptable to most people....like organizing a sit in protest at the supervisor of elections office until we get paper ballots and a hand count....far to radical for most people...and most people are afraid of jail time.

Is it technologically possible to rig voting machines? Of course. It's ALSO possible to rig the old fashioned level machines and to stuff a ballot box with paper ballots. I'm a former Ward Committeeman from Philadelphia, and the tricks that could get pulled were legendary.

But, is it practically possible? I continue to say "no". And here's why

First, it requires a conspiracy of massive dimensions. First, the politicians (presumably Republicans) and interest groups that want to rig elections. Then, the company staff members (executives, mid-level managers and technicians) to design and implement the rigging software as well as design and implement the technology to change voting machines on a massive geographical basis. And all of these people have to stay quiet about the program for more than a decade.

Then there needs to be an agreed on process by which decisions are made as to who gets the extra votes. Every Republican?. Federal Candidates only? Every prescient, or is there a secret master computer running the numbers to decide which pivotal machines need to be adjusted. And who are the people running that effort who are keeping their mouths shut?

And despite the existence of this conspiracy, somehow Democrats keep getting elected. Including a majority of Democrats in the House and Senate for two elections running. And especially, a Black, Muslim, Socialist President in states like Indiana, Virginia and North Carolina.

(note - this is the point at which some conspiracy theorists kick in with either "they wanted to lose so Obama would be blamed for the economic situation and they'd win next time", or "the vote was so high they couldn't rig enough votes to make a difference". Bull---- to both. I've been engaged in politics since the age of nine, and studied electoral politics in college. NO politician ever wants to throw an election. They always think they can deal with the problems facing them, and never want to take a pass. And, the vote difference between actual and exit polls is rarely large enough to reflect that massive difference that would have to exist in the actual vote outcome to explain why the evil cabal couldn't pull out a couple more fraudulent votes.)

But, the big reason I don't believe in a conspiracy to steal elections electronically? They keep trying to steal them the old-fashioned way. Voting list purges. Voter suppression tactics. Closing polling places. And spending god-awful amounts of money on advertising. If the the Koch Brothers had an ace up their sleeve, would they be spending hundreds of millions of their hard-earned dollars to sway the voting patterns of undecided voters?

Conspiracy Theories are great because 1) you never have to prove them; 2) they answer all questions, and 3) they absolve you of any responsibility for the outcome. Now, if you have any solid evidence, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, I'll stick with reality, unpleasant as it is: we sometimes lose elections because we have bad candidates, or bad policies to run on, or just bad circumstances beyond our control.

...but who decided to hire the prgrammer, and gave him the specifications, and decided which races to apply the code to, and actually applied the code ten years after the machines were built and...

AND, how is it they're able to also win races that don't use touch screen voting machines.

never seen or counted by human hands.

We are just trusting that they are counting accurately.

Then the numbers are sent through the central tabulator to the state which can also be manipulated.

We never see or hand count the paper ballots, we are to just trust them.

If there is a recount, the paper ballots are put through the same accuvote machines.

What we need is to hand count the paper ballots, post the totals at the precinct level, before the central tabulator...this way we can double check the numbers and there is no possibility for technological manipulation.

There is no reason we can't hand count the ballots. Most precincts are small. Even if it took extra time, wouldn't it be worth it?

Canada and the UK hand count all ballots, why don't we?

Why do we have a system where we have to 'just trust them'

So you bear no credibility. You just say shit to suit a blanket statement. It discredits the point you try to make.


Most of the state uses a version of Sequoia Voting Systems Optech Eagle Optical Paper Ballot Scanner.

http://gab.wi.gov/elections-voting/voting-equipment/voting-equipment-use

...the ballots were initially scanned by accu-vote. The vote was too close to call. A hand recount was held. The Republican won.

Because that is what this is about.

to access. People "feel" safe with OpScan, forgetting that the votes are still counted by computer, not by an adding machine. And those ballots are only as good as the chain of custody.

5/12/2012 ...over objections, the ballots of 2004 can be destroyed.


http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/klbna.php

No, you mean Bush in 2004, when we had a mediocre candidate (said as someone who worked for him)

and where Blackwell sabotaged the recount and where three people, iirc, went to prison for stacking opscan ballots.

That Ohio.

When you have to attack our candidate instead of actually looking at what happened, that makes YOU the conspiracy theorist.

thank you!

Do we have collective selective amnesia in this country or what?!

for beating their favorite. Guess that's why there is still so much anger towards Senator Kerry. And the aftermath of 2004 just brings out bashers like cockroaches. This is what this is all about.

Weird, if he was so mediocre, why is Obama aka Team Obama taping him to play Mute? He is a valuable surrogate and debater, but haters are always gone hate.

as a debater and surrogate. Guess people will always hold some sort of grudge towards Senator Kerry.


IGT nothing he does as Senator matters anymore, just that he was "mediocre" and didn't fight for ME!



More power to our classy POTUS though. He respects his Dems.

The stolen election conspiracy theories drive me nuts. Democrats are no longer allowed to lose an election; it has to be stolen.

The stolen election meme is irrational and is counter to all of us who have worked for years as poll watchers, and witnesses of the vote count. Are we in on the conspiracy, too?

Grand conspiracies inevitably collapse under their own weight. From now on, I will ignore these threads on DU because the conspiracy kook will never not see a conspiracy. It's the reds under the bed syndrome whose premise is that Democrats never lose an election, so if they lose it must have been by some insidious plot.

The Walker recall wasn't close. There was no fraud significant enough to steal that election. Democrats lost. Get fucking over it.

Sheesh! Exit stage left.

And could you explain to me how you watch a machine count? Thanks.

!

if not, and they concede rather readily then it becomes a liability to make the claim of election fraud. I trust the candidate when he concedes, it's over at that point.

The integrity of our elections is more important than short term political calculation. Which is why we can never expect the party to do a thing about this.

Then when election results were the exact opposite of exit polls, he conceded without fighting.

Thankfully our classy POTUS shows ten times more respect for what Kerry does as Senator than most, but guess that some will always hold some sort of grudge against him instead of the Dems that should have been doing the heavy lifting.


Apologies for interrupting the Kerry let MEEE down, Dem bashing. Good luck in finding your perfect Progressive/Liberal.

or say that they aren't fighters or they "threw the election" when they and their families gave it their all. But, let's let the others walk while the candidate sits in the corner with a dunce hat.

Thankfully, out POTUS disagrees with the OP and respects decent people like Senator Kerry, same with Gore.

That is room enough for questioning the system to me.

The whole argument is a distraction. This debate has been going on for years and it ever and always turns away from the actual point which is transparency in the system with independently verifiable results.
It doesn't matter if you believe cheating is going on with the count or not, it should just be a discoverable fact.

There is no need in the world to prove anything to demand and expect transparent election tabulations.
Of course there have always been methods of frauding the system and they continue to be exercised, having the best navy doesn't keep one from striving for the top air force as well but that remains a distraction from having transparent and verifiable tabulation no matter how well reasoned, simple, or even true points might be.

Of course you stumble into reasonable doubt when a manufacturer of the equipment with proprietary coding states in front of God and everybody that he is going to do everything he can to help a candidate win, your mileage may vary but that is more than plenty for me to actively distrust over and above the default distrust of the basic premise of system no one can check.
Not to get back into the distraction but just being fair on my point of view, I see no need to play a false neutral. I do think their are shenanigans but even if you don't what is the argument against fair and open elections?

No matter how one words that message, it is the first identifying characteristic of any BS conspiracy theory.

That is the best explanation of why the conspiracy theories are just plain nuts.

Who are you working for? And who are you voting for in November?

regarding why any democracy would hand over its voting machines without having access to the machines in the event, and such events HAVE occurred, that there is a question about the votes being tallied.

Why is it secret? What are they hiding?

but thanks for the chuckle.

Both conservatives and liberals are concerned about voter fraud, but each with totally different aspects. For the most part, liberals are afraid/against machine/paper-free voting tallies and conservatives are freaked about people voting who don't have the right to vote.
In essence, machine rigging is a money issue--the big corporations/donors have motive and opportunity. On the other hand, registration fraud is really only practical if you have the grassroots and access to significant populations of non-qualified voters.
These are not equivalent arguments and I'm not making the case that they are. I'm just pointing out that both sides dismiss the prevelence and importance of the other side's fraud. (Repubs say there is no machine tampering, Dems claim (rightly I believe) that there is no real registration conspiracy).
So, everyone seems to agree that election fraud is occurring, and at the same time everyone also agrees that election fraud is not a problem.
Once again, I do NOT believe there is a significant number of illegal votes being cast (so, I believe in "no election fraud" in that aspect). I DO believe that there may be and quite possibly HAS been deliberate tallying error in e-voting (so, I believe there "is election fraud&quot .

actually it downright pisses me off that there are people "telling" us to just trust results. So this is what people died for???? Fuck THAT! Good post!

The burden of proof is on the gov't. That's the main point I took from the post at the top of this thread. And I completely agree. It's the only rational way to run a "democracy".

That the Democratic leadership never raise this issue makes me think they are a bunch of gd useless tools. One of many reasons I think that.

In WI, for example, Nickolaus is a confirmed election thief. Yet if this is mentioned, there are a few DUers who scold with "Conspiracy". This is not a theory, it is a fact. And it's rampant. I think the nay-sayers are trolls.

Yup.

Just an OP bashing Dems.

I distrust that MY vote is fairly counted. And obviously so do a lot of other people. As a poster above stated, that distrust SHOULD be enough to call for transparancy in the vote count. But it's not. Nobody wants to take a few extra hours to hand count the ballots. An observed hand count would shut up the "conspiracy nuts", but none of the defenders of the voting machines want to do that. They'd rather label than actually COUNT THE FUCKING BALLOTS.

Why are these people defending Deibold or whatever they're called now? Aren't they a self admitted RW corporation? And yet they're counting this socialist's vote. SURE I trust them.