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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 11:08 AM Nov 2016

A 1967 experiment turned perfectly normal US teenagers into full-blown fascists within a mere week.

http://libcom.org/history/remembering-third-wave-leslie-weinfield

What came to be known as the "Third Wave" began at Cubberly High School in Palo Alto as a game without any direct reference to Nazi Germany, says Ron Jones, who had just begun his first teaching job in the 1966-67 academic year. When a social studies student asked about the German public's responsibility for the rise of the Third Reich, Jones decided to try and simulate what happened in Germany by having his students "basically follow instructions" for a day.

But one day turned into five, and what happened by the end of the school week spawned several documentaries, studies and related social experiments illuminating a dark side of human nature - and a major weakness in public education.

...

Jones decided he had to end the experiment immediately, but without losing the point of the lesson. He had the three skeptics escorted to the library for their own safety, and then told those remaining that the Third Wave was more than an exercise, that it was more than just a game.

...

"There is no Third Wave movement, no leader," he told the stunned audience. "You and I are no better or worse than the citizens of the Third Reich. We would have worked in the defense plants. We will watch our neighbors be taken away, and do nothing," Jones said, referring to the three skeptics exiled to the library for the crime of disbelief. "We're just like those Germans. We would give our freedom up for the chance of being special."

...

"A big reason I went along with it was my trust for Jones," Neel says. Moveover, he "was just beginning to feel bitter about Vietnam, and part of the experiment seemed like we could change the government responsible for hurting us. There was a feeling something really remarkable was going to happen, going on throughout the country - that the movement was going to change politics, change the structure of school. The combination of everything made it happen, and boy, did it happen."

...

"Fascism is always a possibility because it's so simple and people are frustrated. They lose their jobs, their dignity, their sense of worth, and someone comes along and says, "I've got the answer."




-------

This article was written in 1991.
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A 1967 experiment turned perfectly normal US teenagers into full-blown fascists within a mere week. (Original Post) DetlefK Nov 2016 OP
Rec to read in full later lunasun Nov 2016 #1
That was a fascinating read. cwydro Nov 2016 #2
Wow! dhol82 Nov 2016 #3
What an amazing, and scary, story. Thank you for sharing it. Red Oak Nov 2016 #4
They would be more likely to fall into place because they were well off. malthaussen Nov 2016 #9
Similar to the Stanford Prison Experiment. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2016 #5
The Stanford Prison Experiment was inspired by this and happened a few years later. DetlefK Nov 2016 #6
And the Milgram Experiment csziggy Nov 2016 #24
Of course, if you'd posted this before the election... malthaussen Nov 2016 #7
I remember the movie (1981) made about it--it was horrifying to watch those young people blindly niyad Nov 2016 #8
A timely reminder. rug Nov 2016 #10
fantastic article NewJeffCT Nov 2016 #11
Will read later. Please note, human psychology can be manipulated in two directions. KittyWampus Nov 2016 #12
Awesome! The link is a MUST READ! vkkv Nov 2016 #13
looks interesting hfojvt Nov 2016 #14
something kind of similar concerning discrimination took place in Iowa rurallib Nov 2016 #15
great post Locrian Nov 2016 #16
I think that must be based on Milgram's obedience and conformity studies loyalsister Nov 2016 #17
Keep in mind all of the Right Wing Megachurches out there saying the rich are blessed. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2016 #18
This is very telling. Initech Nov 2016 #19
Understanding some of what's going on here is covered in the book, Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2016 #20
Jones has been misrepresenting this event for a while; a student newspaper shows that it was quite Chathamization Nov 2016 #21
K&R!!!!!! burrowowl Nov 2016 #22
Stunning, to say the least. mia Nov 2016 #23

Red Oak

(697 posts)
4. What an amazing, and scary, story. Thank you for sharing it.
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:11 PM
Nov 2016

I assume these students were well off, with few money issues, yet still fell into place. Quickly.

How much easier a Trump would have it with many people in dire financial straights and with a surveillance system in place.

Damned scary stuff.

I wonder if today's social media be the antidote of such group think or just the fuel for the fire?

malthaussen

(17,215 posts)
9. They would be more likely to fall into place because they were well off.
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:29 PM
Nov 2016

Conformity is the great virtue, and nowhere more so than in secondary school, where even those who want to be non-conformists adopt some fashionable means. The desire to be though well of by one's community is deeply rooted in herd psychology. Suffering or oppression may lead to revolution, but it is complacency that leads to counter-revolution.

-- Mal

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,189 posts)
5. Similar to the Stanford Prison Experiment.
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:14 PM
Nov 2016

They made a movie on it a year or two ago. Really chilling how quickly people can be "turned" sadistic.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
24. And the Milgram Experiment
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 10:30 AM
Nov 2016

Which preceded the experiment in the OP article:

The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience; the experiment found, unexpectedly, that a very high proportion of people were prepared to obey, albeit unwillingly, even if apparently causing serious injury and distress. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology[1] and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


As Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." That is why no one should be above the law and there should always be checks and balances to control the powerful.

niyad

(113,510 posts)
8. I remember the movie (1981) made about it--it was horrifying to watch those young people blindly
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:28 PM
Nov 2016

following along.

the end was just chilling --"you are here to meet the leader of this movement (paraphrasing, has been a lot of years). they are taken into an auditorium, and a picture of hitler is revealed.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
12. Will read later. Please note, human psychology can be manipulated in two directions.
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:49 PM
Nov 2016

I just wanted to say that. Yes, authoritarians use fear and anger.

But there are ways to overcome that.

rurallib

(62,433 posts)
15. something kind of similar concerning discrimination took place in Iowa
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 01:41 PM
Nov 2016

shortly after that.
Trying to teach children about discrimination shortly after Dr. King was shot, a 3rd grade teacher ran a subtle experiment in which intelligence was linked to eye color. It took on a life of its own quickly.

Here is an article about it if you are interested:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/lesson-of-a-lifetime-72754306/?all
The story has been on PBS Frontline before.

It is an interesting corollary to your story. IIRC one component of fascism is a scapegoat.

BTW - that was one hell of a read

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
16. great post
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 01:47 PM
Nov 2016

something to remember when people think that it would never be "them" that become fascists

maybe labeling the system vs the people makes mores sense re trump supporters....

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
17. I think that must be based on Milgram's obedience and conformity studies
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 01:51 PM
Nov 2016
And in the introduction of his 1963 paper, he invoked the Nazis within the first few paragraphs: “Obedience, as a determinant of behavior, is of particular relevance to our time,” he wrote. “Gas chambers were built, death camps were guarded; daily quotas of corpses were produced … These inhumane policies may have originated in the mind of a single person, but they could only be carried out on a massive scale if a very large number of persons obeyed orders.”

Though the term didn’t exist at the time, Milgram was a proponent of what today’s social psychologists call situationism: the idea that people’s behavior is determined largely by what’s happening around them. “They’re not psychopaths, and they’re not hostile, and they’re not aggressive or deranged. They’re just people, like you and me,” Miller said. “If you put us in certain situations, we’re more likely to be racist or sexist, or we may lie, or we may cheat. There are studies that show this, thousands and thousands of studies that document the many unsavory aspects of most people.”

But continued to its logical extreme, situationism “has an exonerating effect,” he said. “In the minds of a lot of people, it tends to excuse the bad behavior … it’s not the person’s fault for doing the bad thing, it’s the situation they were put in.” Milgram’s studies were famous because their implications were also devastating: If the Nazis were just following orders, then he had proved that anyone at all could be a Nazi. If the guards at Abu Ghraib were just following orders, then anyone was capable of torture.

The latter, Reicher said, is part of why interest in Milgram’s work has seen a resurgence in recent years. “If you look at acts of human atrocity, they’ve hardly diminished over time,” he said, and news of the abuse at Abu Ghraib was surfacing around the same time that Yale’s archival material was digitized, a perfect storm of encouragement for scholars to turn their attention once again to the question of what causes evil.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/rethinking-one-of-psychologys-most-infamous-experiments/384913/



I'm trying to track down one that explains 2016 polling where a lot of people with bigoted beliefs will not show it unless they can do it anonymously.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,771 posts)
20. Understanding some of what's going on here is covered in the book,
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 08:17 PM
Nov 2016

Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.

I think the authors do and excellent job of discussing cognitive dissonance theory and showing how it affects just about everyone's behavior in ways that make human beings likely to make and then refuse to accept that we've made mistakes. Sometimes, very serious mistakes.

I honestly think this book ought to be read by every single person past the age of about 11.

A good summary can be found here.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
21. Jones has been misrepresenting this event for a while; a student newspaper shows that it was quite
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 10:22 PM
Nov 2016

different from how he describes. Have a look here (pdf page 5, newspaper page 3). Seems like something he's been grossly exaggerating for years for his own personal benefit.

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