General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy defend Holder? Is this guy worth the effort?
What has he done for the American people...other than persecute defenseless medical marijuana users and let Bush war criminals and economy-destroying Wall St bankers off the hook?
Let sleazeball Issa and the GOP have their pointless little victory and force Holder to resign. It can only benefit Obama to have the Holder distraction out of his hair as he's running for reelection. Meanwhile, anyone other than Holder will be an improvement for the rest of us.
deaniac21
(6,747 posts)appal_jack
(3,813 posts)I called Holder an 'asshole' in another thread, and I'll stand by that overall. Fast & Furious is a debacle & crime, Bradley Manning's imprisonment is unconscionable, the medical marijuana clinic busts are horrible. I could go on. But the fact is that Holder is also doing some good work protecting voter registries in Florida and other states, preventing the widespread disenfranchisement that seems to be Republicans' goal. As a Democrat, I of course stand for voting rights. I wish that Holder would uphold many other civil rights and liberties with equal zeal, but a Republican AG (remember Gonzales? Ashcroft?!?) would be worse.
And more importantly, caving to Issa now gives the Republicans too much raw meat just before the election.
I won't join the chorus of voices calling for Holder's resignation, even though I think he has done a lousy job of supporting (at the very least) the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments of the Bill of Rights. We can and should discuss this matter in the future, but right now it's most important to keep the Mitt-bot away from the levers of power.
In return, I expect Obama to appoint a much better AG during his second term.
-app
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)that you might not fully understand - especially when the Repukes are attempting a coup?
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)This site is Democratic Underground. While that may mean blind Democratic party loyalty to some, I prefer to concurrently embrace the notion that because we are Democrats, we believe in government by the 'demos,' i.e.- the people.
I have been paying close attention to politics & policy for decades now, so I feel quite competent to evaluate the performance of the present AG. But more imortantly, the AG works for us. 'Eleven-dimensional chess' & super-secret double-plus-good policies don't cut it. Had Holder upheld the full Bill of rights, as is his job, he would have the unequivocal support of myself and many Americans like me. He didn't, and so he doesn't. Maybe the 'Eleven-dimensional chess' strategists can put these facts in their pipes & smoke 'em.
As I said, I expect better from the second Obama administration. I am willing to temper my (legitimate) anger aginst Holder for a few months in order to help make that second Obama administration happen.
-app
Aerows
(39,961 posts)are the same people that defend to the death anything Obama does. We all know who they are. Personally, I think he should get the boot, but after the elections. He's a failure of epic proportions and not because of this incident.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)"he's on the team" that we simply must support.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)...seem to be what Obama has in mind: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002839253
It's also faulty logic.
Do you think Issa will drop it? That he'll give the next AG a pass? That Republicans will suddenly end their attempts to make Obama a one-term President?
Here's a hint from above link:
mercymechap
(579 posts)every time we give in to Republicans they consider it another victory for them and instead of thinking that they did the country a favor by getting rid of someone that may not be as effective as we would like, they will brag that Democrats are weak, that we give in to Republicans, and therefore not worthy of running the show.
Why any Democrat would be okay that is beyond me.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)Don't expect Congress to do squat other than political posturing from here through November. The rushpublicans would love Holder to resign and a protracted battle to confirm his successor. In the meantime the DOJ goes without any real leadership to follow up on things like...let's say a trivial matter such as voter supression.
I'm all for holding Holder accountable for actions of the DOJ but on our schedule not on theirs. He's said he doesn't want to serve in a second administration...so the message is pretty clear to those who want a more "Progressive" AG...start humping to get Democrats elected to the House and Senate to make such a dream possible...
pscot
(21,024 posts)the President can't let Issa take him down.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)I don't think so.
This is a witch hunt and the GOP is just doing a fishing expedition.
Holder needs to stand firm and tell the GOP to go to hell
swayne
(383 posts)You can't have the Attorney resigning over anything 5-6 months before an election over something that the GOP wants to poke the Democratic Party over the eye....
That's right....why hand anyone a "pointless victory?" What would BE the point?
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is ridiculous. It borders on campaigning for Republicans.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I just want this issue to go away.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)based only of the intractability of the stink of scandal, I think the President's re-electability might not survive the resignation of Holder.
Contrarily, I think making Issa act rashly and/or get his ass handed to him by the President ends his career. It certainly did wonders for Bob Barr when he tussled with Bill Clinton.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)so the GOP can stop the Department of Justice from investigating these Voter Purges & Suppression tactics.
Don't you think THAT is more important if you want to see Obama re-elected.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I suppose we can't have it both ways ... either we're gonna fight for our's (our policies and our people) and avoid the appearance of looking "weak", or we're not; but if we question whether this guy is worth fighting for, we shouldn't complain about our looking weak for not fighting.
To borrow a phrase: "He may be a useless bastard; but he's our useless bastard."
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)in the way the DoJ has impinged on civil rights. But, even so, I don't think allowing the Republicans to just run over Holder is a smart thing to do.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I must have missed the DoJ impinging on Civil Rights thing. IMHO, not doing what we want (when we want it) with respect to EXPANDING Civil Rights, is different from IMPINGING on said rights.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)with localities against Occupy, and on down the list, IS impinging on civil rights.
On the other hand, I agree with Nancy Pelosi that this is pay back for going into Florida. Holder and Obama must have known the GOP would never sit still for that. The fact that they went in anyway is much to their credit, imo.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)give the gop far too much credit.
This is not pay back for going into Florida ... unless we/she are/is talking about the Trayvon Martin matter ... because this witch hunt was been going on long BEFORE Florida started acting on the purge.
No ... This is yet another attempt to hit at anything associated with President Obama (and the fact Holder is also a Black man is an added bonus).
That said ... If Issa's antics are to be associated with a specific DoJ action, I suspect it would be more closely related to the DoJ's actions here in Arizona. The DoJ has had Joe "the toughest sheriff in America" Arpaio under siege (and rightfully so) for the past 5 years and turned up the heat within the last 2 years ... just when F&F hit.
I think it is no coincidence that the harder the DoJ hits the good sheriff on its pattern and practice of racial/ethnic discrimination (in its enforcement of SB-1070), the harder Issa pushes his investigation of F&F.
This is merely the gop playing to its histronic base; as those supportive of Issa's investigation are, also, strong supporters of SB-1070.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)(Or maybe, suppressed him, lol.) And you're right about the Republicans keeping this one on the fire for that long, too.
But I wouldn't underestimate the Republican's sense of entitlement to Florida or their traditional suppression of the black and brown vote there or the symbolism of our black president or his surrogate hubristically deciding to protect voters of color there from their GOP predators.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Oh, I don't underestimate the gop sense of entitlement on any or everything ... this IS their country to take back ... Right?
So I guess this all is just a hodge podge of hate. It really must hurt to be a goper.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)They've laundered everything there, from money to destabilizations to their capos. In their mind, it's a suburb of Houston.
They're going to lose it soon when the demographics tilt so far against them that they can't hold on any more but, they won't let go easily.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)They'll retrench at the Texas compound ... It'll be so much easier to isolate.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)This has been the standard script during this President's entire administration.
I don't believe it's accidental at all.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Which makes sense, given that he's carrying Issa's water in this post.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Vivian Malone Jones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Malone_Jones
p.s. Holder mentioned her during his confirmation hearing. I thought I'd post this here for the folks that didn't know
RZM
(8,556 posts)For the life of me, I don't understand what he's talking about. What racists has Holder gone after? It sounds like bullshit to me.
For the record, Reading is a serious d-bag, who likes to remind people that he 'supports violence.' I'm not hating on the guy just because of that, but what is the evidence that Holder has emphasized racial prosecutions? If there is some, I'll stand corrected. But as far as I know, he hasn't done much on that front. The only racial case I know of that is associated with Holder was the New Black Panthers thing in Philly. And that was dropped. So I really don't know what the hell Reading is talking about (and yes, he is related to Otis Reading).
Gman
(24,780 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)It sounds to me that you haven't listened to this guy. He's carried on XM 128 - The Power, which is the African-American talk station on XM. Reading is not a fan of Obama at all. He feels that his support of gay marriage and his moves in favor of the DREAM Act are betrayals of the African-American community in favor of other minority groups. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Reading is not particularly concerned with what Holder does vis-a-vis Joe Arpaio. Having listened to him and knowing something about his worldview, he's not going to put his reputation out there over immigration.
So try again. Why did he say this? Maybe I should call into the show on Monday and ask.
Gman
(24,780 posts)You started out saying "For the life of me, I don't understand what he's talking about. What racists has Holder gone after? It sounds like bullshit to me.". I'm saying Arpaio for one. There are others.
RZM
(8,556 posts)I just doubt that's what Reading was talking about. But I don't know. And it's not like it's your responsibility to clarify his remarks. I asked for an example and you gave one. If I want his examples I'll have to ask him.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)Let's had the pukes a talking point to use during the election, for them it would be worst case that Obama wins then they can go after him for a corrupt AG.
Again, nice fucking plan!
Edit: and to keep Dems on Defense, for fucks sake!
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)They create them and they are automatically propagated throughout the media.
Instead of being so concerned that we are giving them anything, how about standing up and fighting for what we know is right?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)"the election", especially where Obama's concerned.
Swede
(33,253 posts)Bus,under,you know the rest.
Gman
(24,780 posts)medical marijuana? Spare us, please.
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)Maybe you'll get the chance to see how trivial it is after a few bouts of chemo. One never knows.
The DEA closing down dispensaries is despicable. It adversely effects many, many people. Patients are denied medicine stolen by the DEA scumbags. People in the industry are out of jobs.
Obama has the same reaction to questions about medical pot as you do. He thinks it's a fucking joke, even though he was a stoner himself. What a fucking hypocrite.
You need to do your homework on cannabis in general. It is perhaps the useful plant known to man, yet it remains taboo. What BS!
sendero
(28,552 posts)... what happens to Holder. He is a joke, our version of Gonzales.
I chuckle in amusement at this entire fiasco.
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)I can't stand the guy.
TBF
(32,064 posts)now we have to defend him because the repugs are attacking. I'd love to see that guy go - he reminds me of Palmer (Wilson's AG) ...
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)I can't stand him either.
But I don't understand people here being so willing to let the likes of Daryl Fucking Issa have his way. I just don't get it.
TBF
(32,064 posts)Palmer did the same thing and then deported them. Holder just locks them up and throws away the key: http://www.frso.org/about/statements/2011/one-year-after-09-24-2010.htm
Issa is a pain in the ass.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)how these same people willing to give Issa has way, were the same people criticizing the administration for being weak.
I think something else is at play here ... perhaps, for some here, Holder is merely a pawn to be sacrificed to push a larger (anti-President Obama/anti-Democrat) plan?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)bigtree
(85,998 posts). . . you'd let republicans do their dirty work. With that kind of advocacy, I'd hope those republicans' utterly corrupt maneuvering would fly in your face . . .if yours was the only one in the way.
You can keep your republican-promoting bullshit. What hypocrisy! Frickin' ignorant hypocrisy at that.
And you act as if you care about his reelection. Sticking a knife in the Democratic administration's back over an issue only republicans would likely criticize is just self-defeating. It's obvious folly. Hard to believe you can't see that.
emilyg
(22,742 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)No way should Issa get any kind of victory.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)He was the one who introduced the illegal Bill of Attainder to defund ACORN. Did Democrats stand up to him then? No, they let a weasel like O'Keefe and Issa take down a 40 year old organization that had stood up for minorities against Republican bigotry for decades.
Issa was also responsible for the recall of a Democratic Governor in Ca and airc, Democrats went along with the lies he told regarding that Governor and still do.
He himself refused to respond to subpoenas, but suffered no consequences from Democrats that I recall.
Like a temper throwing brat, he was catered to, over and over again, AGAINST OUR WISHES, and now you tell us 'we need to stand up to him'?
I remember being told we could NOT stand up to him regarding ACORN. So he got his way, over and over again.
Thanks to all of those who told us we were wrong when we wanted to fight Republicans. Thanks for putting us in a position where we now have to defend one of the worst DOJs appointed by a Democrat, who let Republicans off the hook over and over again, including the crooked Sen. Stevens, while supporting the corrupt, political prosecution of a GOOD Democrat and victim of Karl Rove, Don Siegelman.
Yes, we know we have to support him in order to not allow Issa have yet another victory. It's just sad that the party finally decides to take a stand against Republicans for someone who himself never has.
Well, to be fair, he has finally gone after Arpaio, but that's about the only one I can think of.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Oh, wait.. Not a great example..
Err.. They should stand behind Holder just like they did Van Jones..
Umm.. Never mind..
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Democrats should NOT fight for Holder?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)After all, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But maybe this being during the election cycle and all ... things will be different.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)who's going to write the strongly-worded letters?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Holder might be the center of attention now, but make no mistake - the far right wants to tie this to Obama. They want to make this his Watergate, his Iran-Contra, his Lewinsky - in other words, they want to make this the issue that tarnishes his presidency. If they thought they had a chance, they'd impeach him in a heartbeat over this.
Don't give in to the rethugs
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)but for the autonomy of his office; if you bow to pressure then you're damaging both the credibility of his administration (and the President's re-electability) and the ability of future AGs and DoJ's to perform the duties of their position.
I detest Eric Holder but I know the right course of action is to fight.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 22, 2012, 03:34 PM - Edit history (1)
This whole thing is made up lunacy from the right wing. Why should we let him go and not defend him when he did nothing wrong? Why should this Presidency be besmirched by a lie?
I don't agree with letting the criminals off the hook nor do I agree with busting the weed houses but that is no reason to allow a bunch of right wing bullshit to ruin this guy and this President. Why let the assholes gain credibility from this line of crap? Your suggestion is insane.
And really, do you think he's going to be replaced by a firebreather that will frogmarch Cheney, Rummy, Chimpy and Condi off to the Hague? Fat fucking chance.
The replacement would simply pick up where Holder left off, Issa and the pigfucker Republicans get an undeserved scalp and the President is damaged. All for lies.
No thanks.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)As an AZ resident, I have follwed F&F very closely and I still don't understand those that wish to prosecute/persecute Holder for an operation that traced (and recovered), literally, tens of thousands of weapons (that are important pieces of cases against the cartels bosses) ... all because a couple got away.
That would be like shutting down a drug operation that interdicts tons of cocaine because a couple of keys got to the street ... that happens.
Yes, in this case a Border Patrol Agent happened to get killed by one of the weapons that got away; but honestly, does anyone really think that the trafficker that shot Terry would not have been there ... with a weapon ... had F&F not occurred?
While the trafficker would not have had THAT weapon, but he would have armed never-the-less.
That is just plain ridiculous.
If we want to prevent our Border Patrol Agents from being shot by drug traffickers, how about we end the War on Drugs?
WillyT
(72,631 posts)You use these things as leverage.
Sure I'll support, vote, support you when you are under threat... and need me.
But what are you going to do for me/us???
That's the way it works in the "high-powered" world... no???
bigtree
(85,998 posts).. it's not just the presidency that loses when republicans get their way.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,414 posts)The Republicans and Fox News will crow endlessly about "getting" somebody major in the Obama Administration and probably embolden them to go after other Administration figures, if not President Obama himself, it will make President Obama look weak for giving up and giving in, particularly since he has now entered the fray by claiming EP on some of the documents Issa wants, there won't be anybody "acceptable" enough for the Republicans in the Senate to confirm as Holder's replacement and, frankly, if they are "acceptable", progressives will hate him/her just as much if not more than Holder, and, perhaps most importantly, while we're sitting around waiting for the Republicans in the Senate to get off their butts and do their job to confirm a replacement, nobody will be aggressively be pursuing voter disenfranchisement in Florida and elsewhere.
Does all THAT sound good to you?
If he's got to go because he's really messed up and/or done something illegal and/or unethical, then yeah, he's got to go but there is no evidence AFAIK that he did anything wrong and/or scandalous, certainly nothing worthy of his immediate removal from office via firing/resignation. So far, his only "crime" is not playing along with Issa's partisan witch hunt. Democrats almost always play along with these witch hunts and end up getting burned time and time again. Did you live through the Clinton years? Do you remember how many investigations Congressional Republicans ran and how many actually yielded any actual wrongdoing? You don't like the policies he's carrying out? Fine. But don't do the Republicans' dirty work to help advocate his removal from office when you know that we won't be getting a replacement for some time and that whomever President Obama nominates to replace him may be equally (or more) unacceptable. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
There's not even any evidence that this is hurting President Obama, at least so far. How many people (in real life) do you know whom even know what F & F is let alone who actually is the AG of the United States? How many people whom do know care about all this at this point? If President Obama is being harmed by anything so far, it's the weak economy, which is what most people are worried about at this point. Republicans are going to do anything and everything to throw him off his focus on jobs and the economy. Unless some Dems in Congress join in on the gangbang, I don't see F & F getting blown up into anything more than a partisan witch hunt being led by Issa and other Republicans.
So, considering all this, WHY should President Obama run and dump Holder all of the sudden?
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)It also seems "our Eric" knowingly oversaw a gun running scam in an effort to persecute the failed drug war which I'm not going to "stand with" ever. The "best" excuse seems to be Bush started it which is why I might reluctantly accept if he didn't know on his watch due to deep moles, though it is his business to know, I could see a bit of grace but to try to blow off what has gone on here is rubberstamping the activities and the wider efforts they were used for and not on your life for this citizen.
If he got caught even doing something outside the law but for some reasonably beneficial purpose then I could rally but to stand up for someone doing the despicable in pursuit of the stupid and despicable is long term detrimental and amoral.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,414 posts)Getting rid of Holder right this second is not in our interests and I don't want him gone unless there is some kind of illegal and/or unethical behavior revealed. Otherwise, he needs to stay for at least the rest of this this term (presuming Obama wins a second one). If Romney becomes POTUS, well, you won't have Holder to kick around anymore- though I wouldn't look forward to HIS pick for AG.
stevedeshazer
(21,653 posts)They are after President Obama.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)Obviously, you're not familiar with the o.p. A quick search will quickly tell you that this is nothing new.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)And medical marijuana "users" are not what the DEA has been focused on going after.
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)That statement is complete bullshit.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)this is`t about him...this is about the law and executive privilege. this issue has been settled but isaa decided to challenge executive privilege and various legal issues that are beyond his power to investigate.
this is far from a "pointless little victory" this is an assault on the office of the president and the american legal system.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)if Obama wins re-election, god knows they have done a shitty job. 4 years of mediocrity is enough. Wipe the slate clean, and start over, it would be a great sign for the Democratic party and a second term. I would be happy to see Joe Biden given the heave ho as well. Team Obama needs some radical changes, that much is obvious.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)Unfortunately, politics prevails this close to the election so he won't be going anywhere for a while.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)But this is nothing more than a partisan witch hunt because the DOJ is going after these GOP Governors and their purges and other voter suppression.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)denying the GOP a political victory is well worth the effort...
Besides, we owe the fuckers at least one for all the good people we needlessly had to squeeze resignations out of because of the "GOP poutrage of the week"...
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I'm thinking you must have been in a coma during the Clinton administration.
Holder's resignation will not stop the investigations, just like the resignations during the Clinton administration did not stop the investigations. Once they win their scalp, they'll be even more emboldened.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)But Obama is now in the position where he must stand up for and fight for him. It is even to the point where if Holder submitted his resignation, Obama should not accept it. It sucks that political capital will be wasted on this.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Nope... so who in the DoJ goes after the voter purging? Which is why they're really going after him but hey, let the repubs have their way, because you don't like what he's done.
Do you think another AG wouldn't have done the things Holder has done? Who tells Holder what to do or what not to do? Obama told him not to defend DOMA and guess what? The DoJ is no longer defending DOMA. Who told him not to go after Bush et al? I think, if memory serves, that would have been Obama again.
"The attorney general is nominated by the President of the United States and takes office after confirmation by the United States Senate. He or she serves at the pleasure of the president and can be removed by the president at any time;..."
If you're pissed at anyone in regards to Bush, marijuana or Wall St., be pissed at the person behind the AG.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)As Nancy Pelosi and Charles Pierce have pointed out:
"These very same people holding in contempt are part of a nationwide scheme to suppress a vote. They are closely aligned with those who are suffocating the system, special interests, secret money, and they are poisoning the debate. They are poisoning the debate with that money. And so what does the average citizen say? They throw up their hands and they say, a pox on both your houses, and that is a victory for the special interest," Pelosi continued.
...Senator John (Box Turtle) Cornyn gave this whole game away a week ago:
"You still resist coming clean about what you knew and when you knew it with regard to Operation Fast and Furious. You won't cooperate with a legitimate Congressional investigation, and you won't hold anyone, including yourself, accountable. Your Department blocks states from implementing attempts to combat voter fraud. In short, you've violated the public trust, in my view, and by failing and refusing to perform the duties of your office," Cornyn said.
That is not a non sequitur. That's a tell.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/Why_Pelosi_Is_Correct_Today
Throw the Attorney General out now, and the Republican states will go full speed ahead with voter suppression, while blocking attempts to get the AG's office back in order.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)....they will not stop at Holder.
The Republicans will not stop at having Holder as a sacraficial lamb. They invision him as a domino to bring down the President.
Hence, the smartest thing for us is to make sure that domino doesn't fall.
Unless there was some clear wrongdoing by Holder in this FnF thing and the whole issue is more than just a bonehead program initated by the Bush Administration, then there's no sense to throw Holder to the wolves.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)and voter blocking is happening? The Congress is not approving of any of President Obama's nominations for anything.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And he hasn't prosecuted defenseless medical marijuana users, but medical marijuana clinics that violate regulations.
It is his decision whether to prosecute "war criminals" and there are plenty of arguments against doing that.
He has otherwise enforced the law, which he is supposed to do.
1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)He has been worthless, less than worthless actually because his lack of action has embolden criminality at the highest levels of Government. If he had gone yesterday it would have been 3 years too late.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)spanone
(135,844 posts)brentspeak
(18,290 posts)The GOP was apparently encouraged by Obama's own actions.
hack89
(39,171 posts)defend Holder now and let him him go honorably after the election.