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lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:19 AM Jan 2017

What is it with self-important young men and libertarianism?

I offer an in-depth writing mentorship program with a local theatre collective. I will take on a student after I've reviewed a writing sample. I spend a lot of time reading and critiquing work, so I have to be choosy about who I take on. I'm limited to about 10 students. I don't get paid for this.

Several of the participants are young men (20s) who are actors, writers, and would-be directors. Basically, young white, straight, cisgender men from privileged backgrounds. Despite their professed willingness to hone their craft, which is why they take the class in the first place, these young men are astonishingly resistant to criticism of any kind. One dissed me and withdrew after I told him he had to spell check his own work; that wasn't my job.

Instead of dialogue, what I'm getting is incredible pushback. Their arrogance and ego appear to know no bounds. Any person who might be construed as an authority figure, is to be vigorously opposed on principle. (And I am the least authoritarian person you are ever likely to meet). Heaven forfend I call out a cliche in someone's magnum opus. That makes me an agent of oppression, and a (still trying to wrap my head around this), a "common liberal."

I try to keep politics out of the proceedings, but I'm starting to wonder if alt-right or MGTOW or some other insidious misogyny is infecting these kids. I also get lectured about various conspiracy theories (yawn), and the "authoritarian left." What are these kids reading? And what makes them think they need to be mansplaining it to a woman old enough to be their mother, and a successful professional to boot?

The women and the older men are wonderful to work with and clearly committed to the program. But these young men are dragging down the rest with their sanctimony.

What is with these angry young men? Ye gods, I hope they outgrow it, because they have thoroughly exhausted my patience. The group always needs young actors for readings, but I think I'm going to have to be a lot more selective in my choice of who I accept as a student. I am past the point of giving a fuck, and one of these kids is going to get it right in his privileged ear one of these days.

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What is it with self-important young men and libertarianism? (Original Post) lapislzi Jan 2017 OP
It's a phase... JHan Jan 2017 #1
Have millennial grandchildren jehop61 Jan 2017 #2
Gah! My millennial daughter could not be further from that axis lapislzi Jan 2017 #4
Two daughters, six grandchildren jehop61 Jan 2017 #7
Ignore those, and look for the ones who aren't like that. MineralMan Jan 2017 #3
Agree 110% lapislzi Jan 2017 #9
Many people have talent. It's pretty easy to spot. MineralMan Jan 2017 #12
That's a really cool analysis. lapislzi Jan 2017 #16
It could be a phase (I hope) meadowlark5 Jan 2017 #5
Maybe a bit dated (2014) - but maybe not... jmg257 Jan 2017 #6
They have not lived yet cyclonefence Jan 2017 #8
I keep telling them to go out and get their hearts broken lapislzi Jan 2017 #10
When I was a kid cyclonefence Jan 2017 #15
Immaturity, and enabling parents. kwassa Jan 2017 #11
Kwassa, My wife also teaches at our local community college........... Old Vet Jan 2017 #19
libertarianism is, at the core, selfishness. mopinko Jan 2017 #13
They think they are swimming with the sharks SharonClark Jan 2017 #22
I have a lot of friends who identify this way. Initech Jan 2017 #14
I remember going through a libertarian phase OriginalGeek Jan 2017 #17
Young people might be attracted to Libertarianism due to: LeftInTX Jan 2017 #18
I Have A Millennial Nephew RobinA Jan 2017 #20
When I was young, I thought people failed because they just didn't try. dawg Jan 2017 #21

JHan

(10,173 posts)
1. It's a phase...
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:24 AM
Jan 2017

I went through a libertarian phase myself (I'm 22, not white and not male) and quickly grew out of it when I realised Libertarians talk a good game but never take responsibility for the outcomes (and even ignore the outcomes) of their ridiculous ideas.

Generally though, young people are kinda full of it and very idealistic - this is true with every generation lol.

jehop61

(1,735 posts)
2. Have millennial grandchildren
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:25 AM
Jan 2017

Some have the same attitude you describe. Could it be because they've always been told "good job"? Failure was unacceptable and they aren't prepared for the cold, cruel world.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
4. Gah! My millennial daughter could not be further from that axis
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:31 AM
Jan 2017

She's capable, responsible, focused, and takes zero crap from these types. She would eat their lunch in a heartbeat.

To paraphrase the housekeeper from "It's a Wonderful Life,"...all children should be girls. (tongue firmly in cheek...mostly)

jehop61

(1,735 posts)
7. Two daughters, six grandchildren
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:38 AM
Jan 2017

Three raised with discipline are super, three raised with the attitude of do whatever you want and apologize later, are angry and seem mad at the world and are strong Trump supporters. Puzzling and sad.

MineralMan

(146,333 posts)
3. Ignore those, and look for the ones who aren't like that.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:28 AM
Jan 2017

Yes, a lot of young guys have libertarian, me-first tendencies. They always have. If they aren't interested in direction from anyone, don't bother with them. They'll learn, eventually, or at least some of them will.

A writer who bristles at being told he needs to spell-check is going to fail miserably. I've been a full-time professional writer since 1974. I owe a good deal of my success to taking direction from anyone willing to offer it to me. If someone told me I had a problem with something in my writing, I worked to rid myself of that problem.

I've also taught commercial writing to others. I've met many who could not bear to have anyone suggest improvements in their work. Those people are doomed to failure. It is those who actively seek advice and use that advice to improve their writing who succeed. It's very simple.

So, shrug off all those who think they have already reached their pinnacle. They're probably right, and their pinnacle won't bring them success. Focus on the ones who take advice to heart and demonstrate that with improvements in their writing. They're on the right path.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
9. Agree 110%
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:40 AM
Jan 2017

I will hear and evaluate criticism from any source. I need to hear it. It makes me a better writer--and I've been writing professionally for my entire adult life, albeit not very lucratively, but that's a different story.

Here's an example of what I have to deal with. Ambitious kid makes a short film. I praise his effort. Making a film is not so easy. It's actually a reasonably good first film. Then, I point out an incident that takes me out of the film, that is inconsistent with the story line and should be edited for consistency and flow. The response? "Well, I like it. You're too conventionally shackled to the narrative structure. Kubrick used this device."

I have news for you, kid. You are no Stanley Kubrick, not now, and probably not ever.

Oh, they love their big words.

MineralMan

(146,333 posts)
12. Many people have talent. It's pretty easy to spot.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:56 AM
Jan 2017

However, talent alone isn't enough. Refinement of the expression of talent is the key to success. Your example is a good one, I think. The young filmmaker demonstrated talent in that early film. You praised that talent, but also pointed out an area that caused a problem with the audience's appreciation of the film. That was rejected by the young, talented person. Now, perhaps that young person will end up taking your advice, despite the immediate rejection. If so, then, perhaps the next film won't have that particular flaw.

My wife and I are film fans. She mentioned the concept of a "perfect film" one time and explained it to me. Now, we often discuss films using that criteria. A perfect film needn't be a particularly meaningful film. It simply has to fully engage the audience, be consistent in itself, and have no serious flaws that interfere with the experience of viewing it. It has to capture your attention and hold it from the beginning to the end and do what it intended to do. "Clueless" is such a film, despite its lightweight nature. So is "The Pawnbroker." We spend a good bit of time discussing films we see, but they're always measured by that standard.

We sometimes disagree in our judgment about individual films, and that's really fun. For example, "The Umbrellas of Cherbourg," in its original French version is one of my "perfect films." My wife disagrees, because she was put off by a jazz opera in French, a language she doesn't understand well enough, so she is interrupted by the subtitles.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
16. That's a really cool analysis.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:19 PM
Jan 2017

Interestingly, as a writer, I zero in on the writing and internal consistency, while my husband, who's a sound engineer, is very picky about details both visual and audio--audio more so, for obvious reasons. He positively ruined "Dirty Dancing" for me because of the finale musical number being completely out of character with the film's sensibility. He's right, of course, but I haven't quite forgiven him for that. I can no longer suspend my disbelief when watching that film, although I still enjoy it.

One film that he and I both agree is gets a perfect score is "Moonstruck." There is not a word out of place or a wasted frame of film. I've read the "original" original screenplay, and Shanley was very smart to let the director cut what he cut and where he cut it.

I mean "serious" films, of course. Everyone knows that "Airplane" is the best movie ever. No consistency issues, great performances.

meadowlark5

(2,795 posts)
5. It could be a phase (I hope)
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:35 AM
Jan 2017

I was just remembering the other day how all of my guy friends and acquaintances all loved Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand in general
in college. But at least a couple that I do still see on FB are not libertarian but more left leaning.

Maybe it's just the peak of testosterone and they're feeling alpha maleish. I think they get humbled when they hit the real working world. Of course, some don't.

Sorry they're making this so unpleasant for you.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
6. Maybe a bit dated (2014) - but maybe not...
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:35 AM
Jan 2017
"Seventy-one percent of American adults think of 18-to-29-year-olds — millennials, basically — as “selfish,” and 65% of us think of them as “entitled.” That’s according to the latest Reason-Rupe Poll, a quarterly survey of 1,000 representative adult Americans.

If millennials are self-absorbed little monsters who expect the world to come to them and for their parents to clean up their rooms well into their 20s, we’ve got no one to blame but ourselves — especially the moms and dads among us.

Indeed, the same poll documents the ridiculous level of kid-coddling that has now become the new normal.
...

But whatever the reasons for our insistence that we childproof the world around us, this way madness lies. From King Lear to Mildred Pierce, classic literature (and basic common sense) suggests that coddling kids is no way to raise thriving, much less grateful, offspring. Indeed, quite the opposite. And with 58% of millennials calling themselves “entitled” and more than 70% saying they are “selfish,” older Americans may soon be learning that lesson the hard way."


http://time.com/3154186/millennials-selfish-entitled-helicopter-parenting/

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
10. I keep telling them to go out and get their hearts broken
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:43 AM
Jan 2017

That gets a laugh from the older crowd. The kids just stare at me like I've sprouted antlers. What does art have to do with life, anyway?! Ha!

cyclonefence

(4,483 posts)
15. When I was a kid
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:08 PM
Jan 2017

my father was a newspaper editor and the Neverending Story was that know-it-all snots fresh from journalism school took about a month of seeing what life was really like to calm down and grow up. Nothing like sending a young reporter bursting with Ayn Rand out to interview the survivors of a mine cave-in to rid them of their belief in self-determination.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
11. Immaturity, and enabling parents.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 11:52 AM
Jan 2017

My wife teaches college classes at a community college and another local university. The biggest problem she has is with students protesting their bad grades despite the fact that they never did their homework, didn't come to class, failed their exams, etc. They feel they deserve a passing grade by virtue of enrolling in the class.

Also, quite often there is sexism and racism involved; my wife is black, and though very highly educated, some young white men will not accept her authority. They do this at their peril.

Old Vet

(2,001 posts)
19. Kwassa, My wife also teaches at our local community college...........
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:34 PM
Jan 2017

She tells me the same things you mentioned, How someone can complain about failing and not do the work. There is definitely a sense of entitlement in this generation, Personally I think its bad up-bringing.

mopinko

(70,243 posts)
13. libertarianism is, at the core, selfishness.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:01 PM
Jan 2017

premised on the ridiculous notion that we are stronger alone.

please knock these assholes down a peg. they need it more than they know.

Initech

(100,105 posts)
14. I have a lot of friends who identify this way.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:02 PM
Jan 2017

And I think its' because they're too scared to cross over to one side over the other. I live in Southern California which is mostly known for being a liberal blue area. But I have friends who for some reason or another don't want to admit that they're full on liberal, or full on conservative.

LeftInTX

(25,567 posts)
18. Young people might be attracted to Libertarianism due to:
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:31 PM
Jan 2017

Drug laws
Privacy issues
American isolation issues

They like that Ron Paul was against the "war on drugs". They tend to be more concerned about online privacy than other law abiding groups. They don't want the US to be part of foreign wars, such as Iraq.

RobinA

(9,894 posts)
20. I Have A Millennial Nephew
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 01:37 PM
Jan 2017

who is going through this. He is not entitled, but he's arrogant and Libertarian. I keep telling myself that he hasn't lived long enough to develop any nuance yet.. Plus, the computer world they live in strengthens this mindset, because it contains a lot of white boy winger nonsense. I've heard that "authoritarian left" nonsense. And you can't really discuss anything with them because they attack broad labels instead of ideas. It's never, "Your idea is wrong because..." It's "That idea comes from the liberal media, so it is wrong." Unfortunately, education has failed them and they can't argue ideas.

dawg

(10,624 posts)
21. When I was young, I thought people failed because they just didn't try.
Mon Jan 23, 2017, 01:41 PM
Jan 2017

Only with experience did I realize that so much in life is beyond our control, and that good people who try hard still end up needing help all the time.

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