For the post and the words of a great individual.

Fuck Nazi's the Klan and anyone who identifies themselves as such. They are a threat to the survival of law, society and civilization.

MLK was murdered.

And your "they" refers to who exactly? People with prejudice who took no action, planned no violence? Or people who planned or engaged in it? Speech is a proportional response to speech. If they acted or planned violence, force is justified. But not prior to that. No preemptive strike based on speech or belief. That is approaching fascism itself.

maybe that's how it starts.

Do you think that didn't happen or something? That question sure explains a lot.

Anyone we think is a Nazi shares in the guilt those we associate them with? And get's sucker punched preemptively? That's mob justice and it shreads the Constitution.

They commit it every day. You incite a riot with your speech, you better duck.

Fuck them.

kill many, if the left punches one guy then we are even.

Imagine if there was killing done in opposition to trump, it would give the right license to destroy us all.

We have a severely fucked up situation here where people lie about two sides doing this or that, etc.

Republicans can do anything they want with impunity, if a liberal sneezes, watch out.

So no, we cant do violence.

They're convinced that everyone is out to steal, rape, kill and then rape their corpses.

One jackass getting the ass whooping his momma shoulda gave him the minute he started talking about racial superiority or some bullshit won't change that either way.

But it is making the Nazi in question come down with a mean case of agoraphobia.

And what is the group? Who are we lumping up together? See the lack of Due Process?

He had a homogeneous society that he was able to manipulate and hone in on Jews as the root of their problem. This is America, which is comprised of more demographic groups than White Supremecist Klan Nazis know to shake a stick at. WE KNOW what they stand for. They've shown us. They are still showing us. You join a club; you take on their charter. Fuck them.

Give me a break. You can even see it. Right here on DU.

can we can punch you in the face now? What kind of legal system is that?

Yeah. Actually - FUCK NAZIS.

root of that...most of it entirely irrational and based upon lies. You want to help to give them narratives based upon truth. It won't matter when they're using this stuff who actually started it and who the promoters of hate are versus the people fighting for equality...It will matter that they can point to people who want to commit violence upon their "benign" cause. This is the kind of stuff people recruit with.

Tell you what though, Martin Luther King Jr. knew what the world was like. He knew that his life was always in danger from people who had hate in their hearts. This thread was opened with a post quoting him. He knew who Nazis were. He knew who the KKK were. It would be hard to call him naive under the circumstances . Were his words wrong?

And you know what else? FUCK NAZIS.

discomfort.

Yeah. Fuck Nazis.

No need to let them build up a following. He promotes ethnic cleansing, thems fighting words

Nazis should fuck ALL the way off

https://canipunchnazis.com/

it did not go well for the Nazis after that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/tales-from-auschwitz-survivor-stories

Everyone seems to forget this part. He succeeded because there were people behind them that WERE advocating violence. Society had a choice between MLK or Malcolm X. Britain had a choice. Gandhi or the Ghadar Party.

Neither one could have worked without the other.

There are scads more who don't publish, don't wear uniforms, don't have an organization. Those are the ones to be most afraid of, and have fun hunting them down before they hurt someone.

It didn't work with Dylann Roof, for example.

Don't reckon too many of our grandparents would be debating the morality of violence against Nazis.

Just like not picking on the little boy or defending the wife.

Trump silenced the EPA - and he is going as long to get along with every single thing the REPUBLICAN PARTY is giving him to sign.

There is no knowing if they are armed

<Insert quotes by Dalai Lama, MLK JR, Gandhi, and Erma Bombeck here>

a philosophical level, because everybody is way too triggered to do so, and I get that that goes with the territory. . I try to be consistent myself, so I weighed in here for that reason. I don't believe in corporal or capital punishment. I don't believe in punishment as the best way to teach anything. I don't get my jollies off of revenge or inflicting righteous suffering. On some level I can appreciate a Nazi getting punched in the face, and there's no way I'm going to condemn that guy for doing it. But where I get uncomfortable is where we start proudly advocating for that violence as a response to violence, not as a defense against it. I disagree with it. You might have very good reasons for not disagreeing with it, but of course, that seems to be an impossible conversation for us to have, if we're to take this thread as an example.

That doesn't mean I don't have less than kind thoughts. When the Oakland fire that burned down that art studio happened, I admit it, I was like, "why couldn't that have been a young republican's convention..." Its not something I'm likely to repeat in the public because this attitude and language does not foster empathy and humanity. Sure, I could justify my perspective, but it gets into the territory of making judgements about some life being worth more than other life. This is how everything gets justified. This is how we humans do it.

It's refreshing to see a post at DU that upholds the principles written down in the U.S. Constitution.

I now return this thread to the keyboard commandos, who will continue to express bravery from afar.

I'd hate to get blind-sided by someone who assumed the worst just because I'm a white guy.

The only time I've been assaulted, it was from a gang of white racists.

It was a little depressing to walk home from the hospital the next morning, through a mostly AA community, and seeing black guys seem happy to see me bruised and covered in dried blood.

I've shared this story on DU before, and my main focus has been the fact that white guys attacked me.

The black guys were just an added disappointment, but obviously not the main problem.

that I wore when an ambulance took me there.

Are they supposed to wash them or something?

Edit:
Here's one of my old posts about it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8194801

Cops charged a guy they find beaten unconscious that they send to the ER for hurting himself. Hmmm....

If I'd called family to drive me home, it was a sure bet they would blab to Mom and it would've worried her.

My only friends were co-workers.

Someone at the hospital asked me if I could call a cab when I was released, and I replied that I could (although I didn't have a cell phone on me). As I started to leave, I checked my pockets and noticed that all of my cash was gone. Then I basically said, "Screw it" and started walking home.

My car was still parked behind another building close to the bar. My wallet was still in the glove box.

When I read the police report later, it indicated that I was talking in a slurred voice when they asked me questions. I don't remember any of that, but I apparently told them my name and date of birth.

The hospital was pleased to get my insurance information later. It wiped out my annual out-of-pocket max in one swoop. I decided to finally get a very old hernia fixed later that year since it was basically free.

I think the cops were just being lazy.

By the way, as soon as I mentioned the name of that bar to the judge, several people awaiting their turn to face her burst out laughing. They apparently knew about the place. I didn't.

Edit:
Not to mention that two of my siblings are legally blind and can't drive. What was especially bad about the punch that I took to the face was that it happened to my ONLY GOOD EYE. I'm lucky that I can still see. Like most of my siblings, I inherited something called PXE that causes early blindness. People with PXE are supposed to avoid any blows to the head due to increased risk of detached retinas.

I had a big distortion in my "good eye" after the assault and needed an injection of Avastin in my eyeball a few days later to help stop the bleeding. About a week later, I had a HUGE wormy-looking "floater" in that eye. I went back to my retinologist and he said the vitreous had basically split in half. I mostly ignore that "moving worm" image now, but not always. If I think about it, it's easy to see since it takes up a big portion of my eyesight now.

Silver lining? Ever since the vitreous split, I don't have regular bleeding from the PXE-related neovascularization in my retina anymore. So I don't get eyeball shots about every month now.

That ending. What a zinger! You should be a writer.

But wouldn't the name of the bar be in the report? Why would you have to tell the judge that? Or is that just the lazy cops again?

what really happened.

I also had a gigantic shiner around one eye (needing stitches around the orbital bone) and pointed out the lack of damage to other parts of my face. (There's more about the eye in the edited part of the previous post.) I pointed out that I would've needed to fling my face against a doorknob or something if I did the damage to myself. I also showed her the very big bump on the back of my head. That wasn't stitched, but it had bled pretty bad too. It had a big scab on it.

He fought them in Europe so we wouldn't have to see them over here. Now if they try to get a foothold here, it's all of our duties to stop them by any means necessary.

" I don't favor violence. If we could bring about recognition and respect of our people by peaceful means, well and good. Everybody would like to reach his objectives peacefully. But I'm also a realist. The only people in this country who are asked to be nonviolent are black people."

Malcolm X

...and I shed absolutely zero tears when a nazi gets cold-cocked.

Is that so hard to understand?

He opposed the Vietnam War as did all sensible people. I doubt he would have advocated passive resistance against people who would literally kill you.

Dr. King would have been standing shoulder to shoulder with the armed Jewish resistance to the SS in the Warsaw Ghetto. He certainly wouldn't have been standing with the SS.


The whole question of whether someone should go around punching random NAZIS seems more of a metaphorical or rhetorical one, not a literal one, at least not without looking at all the mitigating factors.

I am sure if a bunch of Klansmen showed up at Dr. King's door with a noose he would resist. There is a difference between passive resistance and suicide.


As to Richard Spencer I doubt most folks are getting worked up about him getting punched.

Don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about what American Nazis do and have done. Do you?

http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/george-lincoln-rockwell-martin-luther-king-jr-1965/

See any punching going on?

George Lincoln Rockewell was a toy NAZI and as I said in my analogy he wasn't showing up at Dr .King's home that he shared with his wife and young children with a noose.


My father received a Purple Heart for being blinded in one eye by shrapnel and contacting malaria in the Battle Of North Africa fighting real NAZIS. As to punching NAZIS, real and pretend, I almost punched one in high school. He kept saying "Jew this" and Jew that" until I could no longer take it. I had some fast hands back then. I threw three straight rights that landed within a fraction of his chin. If we would have swung first they would have landed, We were sent to the assistant principal's office and I told my side of the story. They called in my parents. The first thing my dad asked me is "did you win?"

The real NAZIS (fascists) killed s 20,000, 000 people, threw four continents into war, and brought Japan, Germany, and Italy to the brink of ruin. They also blinded by dad in one eye in the Battle Of North Africa.


Would I hit that poseur, Richard Spencer just for speaking? No, but if he got in my face with his white nationalist bullshit I would tell him to perform an unnatural act on himself and hope he was crazy enough to swing at me.

The "Nazi" in question WAS Richard Spencer. And you asked the ignorant question, "what does Martin Luther King, Jr. have to do with Nazis?" It was ignorant of Dr. King's legacy and history and insulting. I seriously doubt you've spent more than two seconds thinking about him. The thread was about domestic fascists like Spencer, and the Civil Rights Movement has a long tradition of opposing them, including Nazis, who attack black people as well as Jews, immigrants, GLBT people. Why should the Southern Poverty Law Center even bother opposing and tracking them - according to YOU?

There is a direct connection between Spencer's crowd and MLK, Jr. Read the NPI's Radix Journal, in particular their "The Meaning of MLK".

I can't take you seriously if you give a pass to home-grown fascists and racists, just because they had their own state in Germany.

Calling me "violent" and "dehumanizing" while giving George Lincoln Rockwell and Richard Spencer a pass....it doesn't hurt my feelings. It's too illogical to persuade me.

Dr. King is very important to a lot of people and THE reason they pursue progressive and non-violent politics.

You're disrespectful in asking what Dr. King has to do with punching Nazis. It's ignorant of what civil rights
groups do. Many of us who followed that movement into progressive politics ask what Dr. King would do if he
were in the same position.

You're free to think whatever you want of me, but I feel sorry for you because you're thin-skinned and WRONG.

Unpersuasive as well.

More ad hominem attacks. Where do I go to mend my broken spirit? Killing a person's soul is worse than killing his or her body as the soul lives on.

“Martin Luther King Jr., a fraud and degenerate in his life, has become the symbol and cynosure of White Dispossession and the deconstruction of Occidental civilization. We must overcome!”

– National Policy Institute column, January 2014

The debate is not “IS VIOLENCE ALWAYS WRONG” or “GEE, VIOLENCE SOLVES EVERYTHING.” It’s fucking complicated.

But, also, whatever moral wrongness there is to punching Noted Crybaby Racist Nazi Richard Spencer, it’s low on the list of moral wrongs I’m worried about.

Martin Luther King, Jr. is a hero of mine and I doubt that he would say that sucker-punching Nazis accomplishes anything.

Yes, we have Nazis. Yes, they feel emboldened by the Trump administration. He does nothing about that.

Fighting hate requires a well-considered tactical approach, not what feels good in the moment.

As for WWII, that was a war, in which people were under instruction to kill Nazis. I doubt anyone here would advocate shooting Richard Spencer. Professional racists have been shot before. It accomplishes nothing. The hate continues.

Nazis will crawl back in their hole when there isn't so much common everyday racism for them to feel encouraged by. Spencer knows what he is doing - you can't read a pro-Trump forum without seeing floods of racist memes and comments and fascist sentiments from people who call themselves Republicans. What are people doing about that?

with a Nazi's name on their fist will be surprised if said Nazi punches back?

Also if people are allowed to attack preemptively Nazi's will they in turn be allowed to attack protesters preemptively as well?

Which side should face charges for initiating violence or do we just let it slide?

They deserve everything they want for others to happen to them. Their ideology is to kill the rest of us and wipe us off the face of the earth. Calling for the death of billions of humans because of race is the worst type of 'fighting words' and as such should not be protected speech.

It is more wrong to not hit a Nazi.

If they didn't want to get punched in the head from time to time, then they shouldn't have been Nazis.

We fought an entire world war over this. One of the many reasons we fought it was for the right to punch Nazis right in their stupid fascist faces.

Are you going to try to punch the Orange Fuhrer in the face?

Because he's the reason Richard Spencer was out in the first place.

We didn't fight a war for the right to preemptively punch individual fascists. We fought a war
to stop the spread of fascism. How are the people excited about Nazis getting punched doing that?

Just read Free Republic. It's full of budding fascists and racists. Should we hack their site and take it down?

When this happens, or riots happen at their sad little parades, that gives them national exposure. It makes them bigger and more important than they should be, and it gives them a good guy hook that they can use to indoctrinate the starry-eyed racists of the future.

Sure, I'm sympathetic to punching a Nazi. Going further and saying it should be done, and at every opportunity, is an emotional appeal, but not an intellectual one. It doesn't yield good long-term results, even if it makes us feel good. I get why this is emotional. I also get why people would react negatively to a post that seems to be railing against such a "small" thing compared to all the real misery being prosecuted upon people in the world. For my part though, it is about how we chip away at that misery effectively.

It's a damned shame we can't still do that.

...who don't call themselves Nazis? Many hate crimes are committed by them.

Are we going to shoot them all?

It's illegal and impractical.

But...

I'd certainly love to see all the white supremacists shot.

The world is in the terrible state that it is because we keep tolerating those who will not tolerate others.

impractical is a temporary problem...

千里之行，始於足下
a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step
-Lao Tzu

We are a very violent culture and believe that violence is a primary solution to conflict.

Remember a few months back when all the GOP/NRA nutbars were like:

"If the Jews in 1930s Germany had guns, they would have been able to preemptively attack the Nazis and the whole tragedy would have been avoided!!"


And today they're losing their shit because someone punched a Nazi...

I don't want people to lose sight of the real issue here

Is a far more cowardly act.

Other than NAZIs, who else can we assault without any provocation other than their identity?

I would say Fascists, Communists, and Nickelback fans.

As a side note, Dallas Cowboys fans should not be punched, but I think it's appropriate to give them a wedgie.

Where did y'all go to school? Where I went, you said stupid shit, you got your ass beat and then you learned to act right. These RW snowflakes went to their upper-middle class all white schools with their helicopter mommies and daddies and now think just because they smell nice, they can say any damn horrible thing that comes into their minds with no consequences.

If you advocate violence and go out of your way to draw attention to that fact, you might attract violence. Not saying it is right or not right. It is like gravity. It just IS. People just have a sad about it because he looks nice. If it was a sweaty working class skinhead with bad teeth, no one would give a shit. But punch the pretty frat boy for IDENTICAL statements and people get all spiritual about it

People who "don't have the right amount of melanin"?

People who advocate genocide might attract violent reactions. That is something any decent person understands. Guy is a bully. He threatens and insults people for a living. He got punched. Big deal. Not a STRICTLY legal way to deal with the problem, but understandable.

You wanna appease neo-Nazis, have at it. I think we should make them as uncomfortable and afraid as they are trying to make others. That fucker throws Nazi salutes and recite Mein Kampf for fun! He needs to know shame.

Your position is that we should beat someone's ass until they learn to act right, is that right?

I guess I'd be going out on a limb if I were to guess who you think should decide what constitutes "acting right"?

Just in case you weren't sure, my guess would be "you". "You" get to decide who's acting right and who gets their ass beat.

Am I right?

NO! People are not acting right when they run around throwing Nazi salutes. It scares the piss out of decent folk because the last group who did that committed a HUGE genocide. Mass murder. The worst the world has ever seen. Final level evil shit. It is not a stretch to say that a person who references that is WAY outside of the social norms of polite society and that, as a result, he might attract a little violence.

Punching the guy is not strictly legal, but totally understandable. If he had been raised right, he would not be expressing such putrid views out loud where people can hear. Not reacting strongly, even violently, to that level of hate speech normalizes it. I do not condone the normalization of racist hate speech that glamorizes mass murder. It is not cute. It is not a phase. It is dangerous. He knows what he is doing. He likes the attention. He thought he could get away with it. Not anymore.



Stop putting words in my mouth. 'Guessing' is boring. I'm done with you now.

not the best I've seen in my time here, but a good one nonetheless

"Whole thing going around 'seemingly'?" Not here, sorry. Richard Spencer is a hysterical idiot who does anything he can to get attention and is notorious for this sh!t (there are many on the right and on the left who are questioning the entire "punching" incident). Other idiots like Gavin McInnes send out tweets saying they will bring their "boys" (Gavin is a failed "rock star" -- he was never remotely a star -- now he is in his forties and has discovered the alt-right, and is rather bitter about life in America even though he is Canadian) to brawl with some group. Yes, he absolutely does this, then cries that he is being targeted by evil left-wing meanies. Then he acts shocked when some random guy punches in his direction and (presumably drunk) Gavin punches right back while surrounded by his security guards. He cries that he's really worried about the womenz in his group who will be hurt. Of course that doesn't stop him from starting up whatever nonsense possible to a level of hysteria that is stunning. They were all convinced that their "Deploraball" was going to be the target of some massive attack, which didn't happen despite their endless hysteria.

We do not have a "decision tree" on DU about who should punch Spencer or McInnes or anyone else. They are grown men, and they both travel with security. As grown men with public lives they must deal with their own issues. It is stupid for us to fret about it.

I have no idea why these threads about left wingers and "violence" have been popping up on DU, every day since the election, but they are a waste of our time. Totally. We have not advocated violence against Spencer, and we have far more important things to be concerned about -- as in what Trump is doing and how it affects millions, not one or two jerks with Twitter accounts or YouTube shows desperate to get more attention.

They court spectacle and violence and use it to gain attention. I think it is a HUGE waste of time for those of us on DU to indulge in handwringing about Richard Spencer. We are not responsible for what happened to him, full stop, and we shouldn't indulge him or his hysterical colleagues by worrying about how some guy in a crowd (about whom we know nothing) behaves towards Spencer. Sorry, we can't control the world or how Spencer is received in it.

A thread where many DUers are enthusiastically advocating violence is a foolish place to pretend that it is not happening.

He is attempting to normalize neo-nazi ideology by dressing it up in a decent suit and pretend intellectual discussions. He got punched and it reminded everyone what he really is. A racist thug who goes around throwing nazi salutes and quoting Mein Kampf in the original German. Fuck that guy. Fuck his little peepee the frog pin and fuck his faux intellectual digressions about what his exact flavor of white supremacy actually is.

Every time he gets punched, it disrupts his brand and his media game. He looks like the weak, violent little bully that he is, whining when he finally gets his comeuppance. There is no more pretend about what he advocates. He wants violence, genocide and thuggery. Shit got real and he has no answer. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.... I hope he gets punched often.

BTW, MLK also said that the riot is the language of the unheard. He was waaaay more nuanced on violence and protest than people who cherry pick his saying to justify their own privilege or narrow POV want to believe.

can we ALSO punch KKK members? Or will we invoke King's legacy to defend them too?

If the question was "What would MLK do?" then no, he would not punch Nazis. He would also understand if people DID punch Nazis. I can show you the entire quote in you want me to look it up, but it is there. Like I said, his view on violence were far more nuanced than you seem to understand...

Also, non-violence is a tactic used successfully by oppressed people against the powerful. When the powerful use it against the less powerful, it just looks weak. Last I check, we were not oppressed by neo-Nazi, at least not yet. So non-violence is not an effective tactic here.

BUT the discussion is if it is OK to punch Nazis, correct? The MLK thing is just a weird thing you threw in to derail debate.... And I say YES! Punch the bastard in the mouth next time. If someone punched Hitler every time he left the house when he was just starting out, before he came to great power, pretty certain he never would have come to power. He succeeded because people were polite. We call them The Good Germans now, and not in a nice way. In a way that understands how immoral it was of them to sit back and allow a monster to come to power while they sat safe and secure in their little cocoons of middle class respectability because they were either too afraid to call him our or because, in a dirty little corner of their soul, they agreed with him.

So I say YES! Punch the fledgling American neo-Nazi early and often. Yell. Make him feel shame. I give no quarter to racists like that. I also do not underestimate them. Call them out early and often. Call them what they are, white supremacists, hate groups and neo-Nazis, not whatever pretty label they are trying to re-brand with. And punch them when you can so people remember that they are thugs and are ASKING for it.

Do not appease neo-Nazis. Or Putin either, if we are on the topic. They are bullies and only understand strength and power.

Apples and oranges..

NAZIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fucking Nazis. No mercy.

The answer is that Nazis deserve punching.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be penalties for committing assault.

But as someone whose Mom grew up in Nazi Germany..... Punch 'em.

Last edited Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Treating these assholes' viewpoints as valid and reasonable is how we got in this mess. I think the Greatest Generation taught us a very important lesson about how to handle Nazis. You don't invite them over for tea and polite debate treating ethnic cleansing as a valid viewpoint (they can call it peaceful all they want but even the people who say we shouldn't slug them KNOW that's not their endgame). You take anything at your disposal and you put em back into their Swastika decorated hideyholes.

Frankly I picture the ghost of some WWII veteran going up to the puncher and saying something like:
"Hey sonny I've been watching these assholes for awhile. I did not take a bullet in Normandy for this shit. Let me give you some advice on how to handle this guy."

The only thing the Nazi puncher did wrong was that he didn't have brass knuckles on at the time

for if I see the guy. Because this is EXACTLY what I think about when he starts with his Heil Hitlers in public. Massive genocide.

OMG. It's like they think they are allowed to say ANYTHING, threatening and ugly as possible, and that no one is allowed to respond. Be nice to Nazis because MLK!!!!!

Feminists and anti-racists being doxxed and sent death/rape threats. Many people who advocated for fair treatment of women minorities and the disabled were afraid to leave their homes
Kurt Eichenwald was harassed by Nazis who were trying to trigger his photosensitive epilepsy. His crime? Trying to do journalistic reporting on Trump while the rest just focused on stupid bullshit he Tweeted.
Lunatics shut down an Oregon town with threats of mass killing government officials.

We need to stop playing happy grab ass with these people. The "moral high ground" and $5 will get you a coffee.