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Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:41 PM Feb 2017

What's the procedure for when a President is mentally unstable?

Just for the sake of argument, let's say a President becomes mentally unstable or has a breakdown. What would be the procedure for removing him from office? You think there is one? How mentally unstable does he have to be, I wonder?

I have never heard of any way to remove a President other than impeachment because of high crimes and misdemeanor. So, can a President stay in office, even if he's delusional or unstable, as long as he doesn't commit a crime?

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What's the procedure for when a President is mentally unstable? (Original Post) Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 OP
25th Amendment nt pkdu Feb 2017 #1
The Constitution isn't that long, it's good to read it occassionally. PoliticAverse Feb 2017 #2
And exactly which part of the 25th addresses the OP's question? Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2017 #5
... PoliticAverse Feb 2017 #6
Thank you (and all the others who responded), Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2017 #10
Yes, it was intended for cases of mental or physical incapitation. The fact that... PoliticAverse Feb 2017 #11
Section 4 Sgent Feb 2017 #7
Section 4. k8conant Feb 2017 #8
I have read the Constitution, or most of it. Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 #22
Amendment 25 has a procedure that makes the VP acting president. CK_John Feb 2017 #3
Yes, I know the VP becomes acting Prez in the event Prez is gone... Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 #23
Take em out back and shoot em. Just kidding njhoneybadger Feb 2017 #4
As long as Trump signs what Ryan and McConnell want him to sign, guillaumeb Feb 2017 #9
That's it in a nutshell. Our political and legal systems aren't capable of handling this situation. PSPS Feb 2017 #12
Agreed. The GOP ceased to be a political party many years ago. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #13
Ah, yes. Reagan did have Alzheimer's in his 2nd term.... Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 #24
But a narcissist is easier to manipulate if the one manipulating flatters the narcissist. guillaumeb Feb 2017 #27
Although technically the 25th could be used, from what I can tell, it is seem as highly unlikely. Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2017 #14
"But proving the president is unstable would be enormously difficult" - they don't have to prove it, PoliticAverse Feb 2017 #15
I think the implication is that if it's not "proven" it will be very difficult to get Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2017 #16
I can certainly understand not remembering the exact procedure the Constitution provides... PoliticAverse Feb 2017 #18
Thx. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 #25
Give him the nuclear codes and live in complete denial. milestogo Feb 2017 #17
Read your US Constitution!! longship Feb 2017 #19
I have read much of it. Honeycombe8 Feb 2017 #26
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2017 #20
The constituion seems irrelevant now as the GOP ignores Scrotus' lies and whatever BSdetect Feb 2017 #21
The problem with the 25th Amendment it assumes that people in government doc03 Feb 2017 #28
We all die unitedwethrive Feb 2017 #29
Break out the popcorn RainCaster Feb 2017 #30

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
5. And exactly which part of the 25th addresses the OP's question?
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:50 PM
Feb 2017
Just for the sake of argument, let's say a President becomes mentally unstable or has a breakdown. What would be the procedure for removing him from office?

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
6. ...
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:53 PM
Feb 2017
Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
10. Thank you (and all the others who responded),
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:03 PM
Feb 2017

but I don't see where this addresses the mentally unstable aspect. So, this can be used for any reason whatever, as long as the Veep and the appropriate majority agree?

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
11. Yes, it was intended for cases of mental or physical incapitation. The fact that...
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:14 PM
Feb 2017

they put in the clause for the President to disagree and Congress to ultimately decide highlights the
intention to deal with a President that might just be crazy.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
7. Section 4
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:54 PM
Feb 2017

FYI the Cabinet is the body that decides along with the VP.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[3]

k8conant

(3,030 posts)
8. Section 4.
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:55 PM
Feb 2017

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
23. Yes, I know the VP becomes acting Prez in the event Prez is gone...
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 09:49 PM
Feb 2017

But I didn't read of a procedure for this situation.

Who says he has mental instability? Is a psychiatrist's diagnosis necessary? What is the tool used, since this isn't an impeachment for "high crimes and misdemeanors."

That's really what I was asking.

njhoneybadger

(3,910 posts)
4. Take em out back and shoot em. Just kidding
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:48 PM
Feb 2017

People have explained on DU but it's still kind of sketchy, the way the constitution is written.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. As long as Trump signs what Ryan and McConnell want him to sign,
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 07:59 PM
Feb 2017

there will be no actions taken.

It is really that simple. It worked the same way when Reagan was President.

PSPS

(13,599 posts)
12. That's it in a nutshell. Our political and legal systems aren't capable of handling this situation.
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:14 PM
Feb 2017

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
24. Ah, yes. Reagan did have Alzheimer's in his 2nd term....
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 09:53 PM
Feb 2017

The main thing was to keep him there, since he was presumably easy to get to sign things. Iran-Contra and all that.

But Trump, while easy to trick, isn't unable to function. He has a strong, willful personality. Still, he doesn't understand these politicians and might be easy to trick or get to sign things.

OTOH, he is surrounded by a close team of people who haven't lost their marbles. They wouldn't be easy to trick.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
27. But a narcissist is easier to manipulate if the one manipulating flatters the narcissist.
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 10:54 PM
Feb 2017

And Trump certainly shows no interest in learning about the issues.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
14. Although technically the 25th could be used, from what I can tell, it is seem as highly unlikely.
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:17 PM
Feb 2017
But if Robinson and company are correct that Trump is “crazy,” it is plausible, although extraordinarily unlikely, that his own cabinet and vice president could give him the boot.

But proving the president is unstable would be enormously difficult.

If Mr. Trump were suffering from a physical ailment, and the White House physician testified to that fact, the matter would be relatively cut-and-dry. Mental illness, however, is a much more subjective matter.

“How do you demonstrate someone is psychologically unsound?” Robert Gilbert, a professor at Northeastern University and an authority on the 25th Amendment, told CBS News.

This is a question with no clear answer in the Constitution, and could invite a nightmare scenario of dueling teams of psychiatrists testifying before Congress, and in front of the world, about a president’s fitness to serve.

And don't let anyone make you feel bad that you didn't know the answer:
The 25th Amendment, adopted in 1967, sought to answer that question. It is the longest amendment adopted since the Civil War, yet remains a bit obscure – in the aftermath of the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan, many cabinet members were said to be unaware of its contents.

All excerpts above from: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/an-obscure-way-to-oust-an-american-president/

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
15. "But proving the president is unstable would be enormously difficult" - they don't have to prove it,
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:26 PM
Feb 2017

Congress just has to vote it.

"many cabinet members were said to be unaware of its contents."

If you are going to be a cabinet member, please read the Constitution at least once.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
16. I think the implication is that if it's not "proven" it will be very difficult to get
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:36 PM
Feb 2017

congresscritters to vote to remove the president.

Also, most competent readers do not memorize everything they read. They particularly don't memorize parts of the text they deem most likely irrelevant. Considering the 25th has never been used, seldom even considered, in the 50years since it's addition, it does not seem unreasonable to use memory cells to house items more likely to be useful.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
18. I can certainly understand not remembering the exact procedure the Constitution provides...
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 08:42 PM
Feb 2017

but I would expect them to remember at least that there's "something in the Constitution that covers this because I read it
once".

longship

(40,416 posts)
19. Read your US Constitution!!
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 09:09 PM
Feb 2017

It isn't long and there's a lot of thought and intelligence in it.

For instance, it is not easy to change it, however it provides the methods to do so.

And... there are no do overs for presidential elections.

One of the more recent amendments is #25. That's one we all ought to become familiar with. One only hopes that the White House staff has enough straight jackets for when Drumpf goes further off the deep end.

In short, it's a Chum some of this shit... We're going to need a bigger boat! scenario.


Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
26. I have read much of it.
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 09:56 PM
Feb 2017

I'll read (or re-read, as the case may be) the 25th. Consider me bi__h slapped!

Response to Honeycombe8 (Original post)

BSdetect

(8,998 posts)
21. The constituion seems irrelevant now as the GOP ignores Scrotus' lies and whatever
Fri Feb 17, 2017, 09:16 PM
Feb 2017

I think we can assume they will leave him in the WH as long as possible.

Its also their own involvement in the FBI debacle.

Remember Guiliani knew what Comey was planning.

doc03

(35,338 posts)
28. The problem with the 25th Amendment it assumes that people in government
Sat Feb 18, 2017, 12:36 AM
Feb 2017

are there to do what is best for the country rather than the party. So it is impossible
the 25th Amendment will be used unless he ends up rolled up in a ball crying under the desk
in the oval office or kills millions of people.

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