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Botany

(70,539 posts)
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:01 PM Feb 2017

Trump's new law that lets coal companies dump waste into streams will kill and/or hurt people

The bottom line is that Trump's law that will allow for more AMD (acid mine drainage)
is that it might hurt and or kill people and it will also not bring back the coal jobs that
have been lost over the past 50 years too.

When coal and the waste products from coal mining mix with water and air you get
iron pyrite (rust), sulfuric, and sulfonic acid and when this mix gets into the creeks and streams
you have AMD or as it is called in some areas "yellow boy." AMD not only kills fishes and other
animal life in the streams and rivers but it also weakens and or kills a lot of the vegetation
that grow along the water ways.

Given the topography of much of "coal country" is that of steep hills and valleys the conditions for flooding
are always present. This flooding might be exacerbated because the vegetated buffers in and along the
waterways were damaged by AMD. Higher flood levels, more erosion, and trees being washed into the
watershed all can be expected outcomes of these common flood events. Every year people in coal country die in
these local floods and their homes, roads, farms, and businesses get damaged too. Trump's law might very well
make these floods worse.

This risk of bigger floods are a steep price to pay for coal jobs that will not be coming back because the power plants now
burn natural gas because it is cheaper, cleaner, and easier to use then coal.


http://gizmodo.com/why-trumps-plan-to-put-bring-back-coal-jobs-makes-no-se-1792481223

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Trump's new law that lets coal companies dump waste into streams will kill and/or hurt people (Original Post) Botany Feb 2017 OP
Thank you for the warning. WhiteTara Feb 2017 #1
In S.E. Ohio streams for the first time in generations were starting to get cleaned up and Botany Feb 2017 #2
is there really much demand for coal anymore, haven't 90% of the businesses that use putitinD Feb 2017 #3
No. former9thward Feb 2017 #19
I wish there was a way to deny IdiotsforPalin Feb 2017 #4
They are introducing 5 tort reform bills so that most, if not all, people will have trouble Dustlawyer Feb 2017 #8
We are learning that the founders had a mistaken reliance on the certainty of checks and balances. JudyM Feb 2017 #13
Great! So next time I go camping I can just take a dump in a stream. Handy! TrekLuver Feb 2017 #5
Do you really think there is a law stopping you from doing that now? former9thward Feb 2017 #21
It was a joke. Unbelievable. TrekLuver Feb 2017 #22
Ironic that the Green poli3 Feb 2017 #6
Yeah, the Greens seem to want things so bad that they experience the "Rapture". Blue_true Feb 2017 #14
Are they actually starting up the mines? Turbineguy Feb 2017 #7
No Botany Feb 2017 #9
for the life of me i dont know why we arent reclaiming the metals, at least. mopinko Feb 2017 #10
What happens is that mining exposes mineral deposits and in the aftermath PufPuf23 Feb 2017 #12
Iron pyrite is not rust. PufPuf23 Feb 2017 #11
FeSO4 is the stuff in coal along with SO2 Botany Feb 2017 #15
I never claimed I could do chemistry, only that iron pyrite is not rust lol. PufPuf23 Feb 2017 #16
I think it is Botany Feb 2017 #17
I agree with you. PufPuf23 Feb 2017 #18
They are so fuckingly demonicall stupid. Cha Feb 2017 #20

WhiteTara

(29,719 posts)
1. Thank you for the warning.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:04 PM
Feb 2017

This too is another unraveling. Do they think they won't have to drink the water or breathe the air?

Botany

(70,539 posts)
2. In S.E. Ohio streams for the first time in generations were starting to get cleaned up and
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:07 PM
Feb 2017

now we are going to go back to rust colored creeks.

putitinD

(1,551 posts)
3. is there really much demand for coal anymore, haven't 90% of the businesses that use
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:09 PM
Feb 2017

coal, figured out that natural gas is much cleaner, cheaper, and safer? Gas is what killed coal, not Obama!

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
19. No.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 11:31 PM
Feb 2017

Coal is used for 33% of electricity in the U.S. In addition coal is needed for steel production and no, natural gas can't make steel.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

IdiotsforPalin

(170 posts)
4. I wish there was a way to deny
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:09 PM
Feb 2017

federal aid for disasters caused by the roll back of these protections. No aid for an health ailments. Nothing zero.

Dustlawyer

(10,496 posts)
8. They are introducing 5 tort reform bills so that most, if not all, people will have trouble
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:45 PM
Feb 2017

recovering in a civil suit.

JudyM

(29,251 posts)
13. We are learning that the founders had a mistaken reliance on the certainty of checks and balances.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 04:21 PM
Feb 2017

One party can control the whole government and plunder without regard to law or ethics.

Personally, I think we need legislation that will hold environmentally destructive decisions/activities to strict scrutiny. If we get in power again, we should make it a Constitutional amendment.

former9thward

(32,046 posts)
21. Do you really think there is a law stopping you from doing that now?
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 11:35 PM
Feb 2017

Unbelievable. Is there someone out there to arrest all the fish, birds, and countless other animals that take dumps in streams?

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
14. Yeah, the Greens seem to want things so bad that they experience the "Rapture".
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 04:45 PM
Feb 2017

The guestioning is how many lives will be ruined or outright lost during the meantime?

Botany

(70,539 posts)
9. No
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:49 PM
Feb 2017

much of the AMD comes from coal operations that shut down
20 or more years ago. This just lets the coal industry not
clean up their left over crap. I forget the amount but a
fee of a few cents on every ton of coal is supposed to be used
for clean up operations. This just lets the rich coal bosses
keep their money and does nothing for the miners.

mopinko

(70,155 posts)
10. for the life of me i dont know why we arent reclaiming the metals, at least.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:50 PM
Feb 2017

people blow up mountains and turn them into dust to extract metals. this stuff is already dust. why dont they mine this stuff?
am i crazy here? i keep asking this question and nobody has yet told me i'm nuts.

PufPuf23

(8,802 posts)
12. What happens is that mining exposes mineral deposits and in the aftermath
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 04:10 PM
Feb 2017

water percolates through the leavings from the mining and dissolves the previously stable metals and other toxic chemicals.

There are Super Fund sites that were once mines that have plants built that gather and process the dangerous leached fluids and extract the toxicity, this applies to other former metal mines (copper for instance). The "product" of the mediation plants separates the toxic from the leached fluid that is then landfilled and stable and not bleeding toxins into the environment.

The process is very expensive, not a net money maker, and the situations very common (and may not have the concentrated toxins where collection and processing is feasible).

Your not nuts but there is not a practical solution in many cases and one that is economically feasible rare. When such a process is undertaken, the process rather than being a money maker is the low cost remediation to an existing problem where there is a feasible means to gather the runoff.

A good example is the Iron Mountain Super Fund site near Redding, CA where a water treatment plant was built to treat toxic runoff as part of remediation:

>>Iron Mountain Mine, also known as the Richmond Mine at Iron Mountain, is a mine near Redding in Northern California, USA. Geologically classified as a "massive sulfide ore deposit", the site was mined for iron, silver, gold, copper, zinc and pyrite intermittently from the 1860s until 1963. The mine is the source of extremely acidic mine drainage which also contains large amounts of zinc, copper and cadmium. One of America's most toxic waste sites, it has been listed as a federal Superfund site since 1983.[1]


History

The site was mined by the Mountain Copper Company, Ltd., both underground using open stope mining techniques and at the surface in the form of open pit and sidehill mining. As a result, the mountain fractured and mineral deposits were exposed to oxygen, water and certain bacteria, resulting in acidic mine drainage. Though mining operations were discontinued in 1963, underground mine workings, waste rock dumps, piles of mine tailings, and an open mine pit still remain at the site. The mine was designated a Superfund site in 1983 and a water treatment plant was built in 1994. In 2000 the government reached a settlement with Aventis CropScience (now part of Bayer) for the long-term funding of the cleanup efforts.[1]

Location and drainage


Collecting drainage in the Iron Mountain Mine

The mine is located at 40°40?20?N 122°31?40?W in the Klamath Mountains of Shasta County, about 9 miles northwest of Redding. The mine area is drained by several creeks which ultimately enter the Spring Creek Reservoir, formed by the Spring Creek Dam, and finally the Keswick Reservoir formed by a dam across the Sacramento River. This reservoir is a major source of drinking water for Redding.
Historic mining activity at the site has fractured the mountain, exposing minerals in the mountain to surface water, rain water, and oxygen. When pyrite is exposed to moisture and oxygen, sulfuric acid forms. This sulfuric acid runs through the mountain and leaches out copper, cadmium, zinc, and other heavy metals. This acid flows out of the seeps and portals of the mine. Much of the acidic mine drainage ultimately is channeled into the Spring Creek Reservoir by creeks surrounding the mine. The Bureau of Reclamation periodically releases the stored acid mine drainage into Keswick Reservoir. Planned releases are timed to coincide with the presence of diluting releases of water from Shasta Dam. On occasion, uncontrolled spills and excessive waste releases have occurred when Spring Creek Reservoir reached capacity. Without sufficient dilution, this results in the release of harmful quantities of heavy metals into the Sacramento River. Approximately 70,000 people use surface water within 3 miles as their source of drinking water. The low pH level and the heavy metal contamination from the mine have caused the virtual elimination of aquatic life in sections of Slickrock Creek, Boulder Creek, and Spring Creek.

The drainage water from the Iron Mountain Mine is the most acidic water naturally found on Earth; some samples collected in 1990 and 1991 have been measured to have a pH value of -3.6.[2] Water temperatures as high as 47°C have been measured underground.
The drainage water endangers fish, including winter-run Chinook salmon, a federally listed endangered species that spawns in the Sacramento River. Salmon kills have been noted since 1899.

from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Mountain_Mine

PufPuf23

(8,802 posts)
11. Iron pyrite is not rust.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 03:53 PM
Feb 2017

Rust is an iron oxide; a iron, oxygen, and hydrogen compound.

Iron pyrite is an iron sulfide; a sulfur and iron compound.

Both are in waste water runoff from coal mining.

Just correcting the chemistry; agree and have no problem with article.

Botany

(70,539 posts)
15. FeSO4 is the stuff in coal along with SO2
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 10:08 PM
Feb 2017

You are right about the chemistry but I dumbed it down a little
bit .... sorry

FeSO4 + H2O + O2 goes to H2SO4 and Fe ????? .... It has been years

PufPuf23

(8,802 posts)
16. I never claimed I could do chemistry, only that iron pyrite is not rust lol.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 10:56 PM
Feb 2017

Nothing to be sorry about you made a good post.

I think the importance is that the mining fractures and exposes rock to water and oxygen and a nasty brew including sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and heavy metals in solution leaches out and into watersheds and is difficult to "remediate". An extreme example is the iron Mountain Mine cited in my other post.



Botany

(70,539 posts)
17. I think it is
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 11:09 PM
Feb 2017

FeSO4 + H2O + O2 goes to H2SO4 and FeOH (some kind of iron oxide) ... it has been years

The sulfur in coal comes as FeSO4 and as elemental sulfur (yellow clumps)

In the past 6 years I have seen creeks in S.E. OH that ran red orange with
AMD for 30 + years cleaned up ..... I fear w/Trump's law those gains will be lost.

this law will not get any coal jobs back but it will let the coal companies and coal
bosses pocket the few cents per ton on coal that is supposed to go to "clean up"
work in the coal fields.

PufPuf23

(8,802 posts)
18. I agree with you.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 11:20 PM
Feb 2017

I dread the idea of general weakening and reduced enforcement of environmental laws under Trump.

I also worry about the privatization of public lands and natural resources.

The money grubbers will gladly pocket any margin they can access.

My chemistry education and any practical use is far in the past too.

Cha

(297,425 posts)
20. They are so fuckingly demonicall stupid.
Sun Feb 19, 2017, 11:33 PM
Feb 2017

Wouldn't be the first time toxic waste has killed people/made them sick.

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