It's been said he doesn't read anything longer than a paragraph or two,
and prefers Power point presentations.

A can of hair spray

Just pointing out the he's both a hypocrite and a incorrigible man-child.

If knowledge is power, what's lack of knowledge?

... in other words he doesn't read because he can't.

That would explain why people like Steve Bannon can pretty much do what they want, while they spin BS into Trump's ears.

I will have 5 beers.

When I meet a RW who is spouting Islamaphobic nonsense I tell that joke and ask if we should eliminate all Arabic influences in our educational system. When I get the inevitable red face "YES", I tell that joke and ask how we are going to run computers on the Roman Numeral System. I continue to ask questions until they agree that they don't know what they are talking about.

To display Arabic numbers they have to be formatted from binary, one could as easily display Roman numerals. All math in a computer is done in binary and then is displayed in something else.

I hope that your other questions have a better foundation than claiming computers require Arabic numerals, because not all right wingers are as stupid as most of them.

(ons and offs) and are still represented as Arabic numbers.

They could be represented as easily by dots and dashes, "A"s and "B"s, + and -, any two symbols. Just because 1s and 0s are commonly used to display binary, does not mean that Arabic numbers are being used by the computer.

It doesn't matter what it "could be" represented as. It's what it IS represented as in the industry for binary. And for those who program, it is what their higher level languages eventually boil down to upon conversion to machine language, which instructs the computer to turn a circuit on or off (my dad was a COBOL programmer).

I don't have to go to my daddy's knowledge, I have been programming since 1979. It's what pays my bills. Deep down inside the processor, there are no numbers at all, just voltages and absence of voltages.

We use a decimal system because it is convenient, not because it is required. Early computers used lights to indicate results, no numeric symbols at all. If we had 6 fingers on each hand, we probably would use at base 12 system.

Don't confuse what is used with what is required.

and worked in IT for the past 25 fucking years after working on computers in an analytical lab for 7 years.

You completely missed the point of the sub-thread's OP assertion - the use of the Arabic numbering system and NOT Roman Numerals.

The use of the "1s" and "0s" are common representations used by programmers to represent circuit state. Let's be for real and stop posting stupid shit.

Resorting to cursing is usually an indication that one is losing.

You completely missed the assertion of the sub-thread's OP. That one can't operate computers without Arabic numbers, an absurd, completely false statement. Oh, it will work on someone who doesn't have a clue about how computers actually do things, but it is humans that PREFER Arabic numerals, not computers.

Humans find Arabic numerals really useful and have been using them a long time, a valid point.

Computers don't use numerals at all and don't care what they programmer wants to display results as.

If you are wanting to convince someone that Arabic numerals are useful, there are tons of examples of how humans find them useful - a computer does not find them necessary and is a false example of why Arabic numbers are useful.

Be happy that someone is willing to pay you for what appears to be only a basic understanding of what computers are.

Perhaps you need to step back and focus on the point of the subthread's OP rather than going off on a tangent about a critical concept that Islamophobes seem to have no clue about.

The person I replied to stated that computers need Arabic numbers. That is false, and you haven't made any arguments that prove that it isn't (you actually stated that they don't yourself). Arabic numbers are very useful to us, but not to computers.

Sorry if you don't understand that, but those are simply the facts.

I have made no arguments that Arabic numbers are useful, but you seem to want to put those words in my mouth. You are arguing against provable facts - you proved yourself wrong in your first reply to me.

And you proceeded to go off on a tangent about computers running themselves and not needing Arabic numbers and other nonsense when it said how are "we going to run..".

But keep digging. Maybe you'll dig yourself out of your hole one day.

tell that joke and ask if we should eliminate all Arabic influences in our educational system. When I get the inevitable red face "YES", I tell that joke and ask how we are going to run computers on the Roman Numeral System. I continue to ask questions until they agree that they don't know what they are talking about.

The poster talks of eliminating Arabic influences and posits that computers are useless without Arabic numbers.

The fact is computers don't use numbers in terms of Arabic or Roman numbering systems. I'm sorry that you are falling for the same fallacy that the poster believes Right Wingers will, but it is wrong and nothing you can say will change that.

Enjoy yourself!

After swearing failed, you are flailing at anything to try to rescue your evening.

Fact: computers don't use Arabic number systems, except to display results. They could as easily display Roman numerals as Arabic numerals. We have them display Arabic numerals because we prefer them, not because the computer requires them.

That has been my argument since I posted in this thread. You have ranted and raved, for some reason, for hours, against a fact that you can't dispute.

Have a good night, sleep it off, and go to work tomorrow with a better attitude.

and am retired so have plenty of time to enjoy the more lucid conversation on the rest of the site thank you.

Your casual contact with them while working in a lab obviously didn't give you a deep knowledge. Your insistence that binary is 1s and 0s (inside a computer, they are not), that your daddy programmed in COBOL, that you worked in IT for "the past 25 fucking years&quot despite also claiming that you are retired), that you tried to use a portion of a quote out of context...

Your rambling around leads me to believe that you are really looking for someone to argue with and to tell them to get off your lawn.

Have a nice retirement and find someone else to argue with tomorrow. Don't forget to take your blood pressure meds, this much excitement could be bad for you.

What's the matter, can't support your position, what ever that is at the moment?

Without the zero, real math is impossible. That's why we use the arabic numbering system, whatever base we are working in. And then there is algebra, another arabic invention, which also needs zeros.

Decimal numbers require 0 for a place holder. Real math can be done be done with any symbols, it's just a lot easier to use decimal.

Computers do not use Arabic numbers except to display values for our use, formatted from a series of voltages and grounds.

base 10 and hindu/arabic numbers? Really? I don't think so. Roman numerals are just a tally system. Doing mathematical operations using Roman Numerals is a morass of complications. At one time, I learned how to do basic arithmetic with them, but I forgot all that as soon as I possibly could.

Love ya, MM, but computers do not require Arabic numerals.

That's why there are so many programming languages. That's why the users of those computers enter numerical date and see results in arabic numbers. The binary nature of computers is due to their use of simple two state semiconductors for everything. For them to be useful, it all has to be converted into something that people can use to provide input and get information from those binary systems.

Through my adult life, I have had to learn to think in multiple bases for mathematics. Most of those were powers of 2. Other number bases were less useful, but interesting in their own rights.

However, it's not particularly useful in the real world to use any number base but 10. We do that because of our five-digit pairs of hands and feet, the earliest tallying devices of all. If we had evolved with 6 fingers and toes, we'd be using base 12, most likely, as is used in some systems of measurement.

In many way, we're still counting on our fingers, and base 10 makes arithmetic pretty easy, really. So, it's a good compromise.

However, most of us can still tally on paper. I still use a tally system for counting large piles of discreet objects as I move them into piles of some size or another. We're also pretty good at instantly identifying groups of five things. Watching a pharmacy technician count pills manually, you'll usually see them separating out five at a time.

Computers are good at displaying any data in any form you wish, if the programming is designed to do so. Like most educated people, I use scientific exponential notation for very large and very small numbers, using powers of 10 to abbreviate them.

I never use anything other than base 10 in daily life, though. I could, but can't think of any practical reason to do so. I work with common fractions, of course, and am quite comfortable with measurement systems that are 12 or 16 based, but that's a specialized thing and should probably be replaced by metric measurements, in my opinion.

You and I are not computers. The post of the person I responded to' had the argument was that we couldn't operate computers without Arabic numbers.

That is patently false.

I have not argued that humans don't need Arabic numbers, in fact, I said that before you started trying arguing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekatron

I have a Burroughs BD 301 Beam Switching tube on my desk that I use as a paperweight. It's a faster version of the Dekatron.

http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/tubepage.php?item=18

The output of these computers could be displayed directly using decimal Nixie tubes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixie_tube

No binary numbers involved.

One of my first technical jobs was at Burroughs and they were still servicing all sorts of 'fifties and 'sixties computing equipment. Among my favorites were the 10 megabyte hard drives as big as washing machines.

My boss was a great guy, he let me take home all sorts of stuff that was headed for the dumpsters. He'd also say about compressed air leaks on the factory floor (which irritated me immensely) "If I can't hear it, it's not leaking." Funny thing is he was nearly deaf.

The concept of "zero" was the great innovation of Arabic numbers.

When people think of computers today, analog computers using vacuum tubes generally don't come to mind.

When trying to convince someone of the usefulness of Arabic numbers, citing computers doesn't strengthen the argument, it weakens it.

It makes our head hurt, it does.

Todd Rundgren used the verse as the opening lyrics of his 1975 song Real Man.

Last edited Sun Mar 5, 2017, 09:16 PM - Edit history (1)

it is about time for him to try something new.

But as you said, 70 years is a long time to become fixed in habits.

has a computer group, does anyone go there?