even if you fire them, they can't take other jobs (or start their own businesses) competing against you.

I'm currently finessing the shit out of one right this minute.

If you think you're stuck in one, especially if you get fired, get a good lawyer.

It was just an example that came to mind.

Your advice for anyone in that situation, however, is very sound. These things must be drawn very narrowly in order to be enforceable. And, like everything else in the U.S., a lot depends on the state where you live.

They're almost completely unenforceable.

- wage theft - refusing to pay time & a half for overtime hours
- bait and switch when selling products

it's not enough to keep a worker doing that job alive, everybody knows that. Paying it in order to get richer, yourself, is unethical.

Some minimum wage workers are worth a lot more. But some aren't. And it shouldn't be the employer's responsibility to make up the difference. (We the People should do so.)

Everyone deserves a living wage. But not everyone is able to do work that generates that much economic value. That is where a compassionate government needs to step in.

Paying a worker less than it takes to keep him alive is UNETHICAL.

I don't give a shit what the greedheads told you in business school.

If he contributes $5 of value for every hour he works, I can't pay him $15 (unless I just want to drive myself out of business).

*Someone* needs to make sure he gets $15 an hour (or the equivalent living wage). I think we both agree on that.

But why is it solely my responsibility?

Answer: It's not.

Personally, I like the idea of Universal Basic Income. Everyone, and I mean *everyone*, would get a check from the government that would be enough to provide for basic necessities. Businesses and workers would then be free to negotiate wages based on market forces, and not based on need.

You sound like the Spanish Conquistadors who captured native slaves and refused to feed them, knowing it was far cheaper to let them starve to death and capture new ones than it was to feed them. They didn't come here to lose money, either.

If your business produces something of so little value to its workers and its customers, then do something else in the world.

I've never been called a conquistador before.

But seriously. It's not that the business isn't producing something valuable. It's just that different individuals within a business are able to perform at differing levels of productivity.

Some workers are only able to produce enough value to the company to justify the minimum wage.

You say it's immoral to hire these people. But the alternative is to just leave them jobless.

Businesses are not set up to be charities. And maybe, if a business owner has a good heart, he or she can *carry* some workers who aren't producing up to the levels of their salaries.

But that would be a gift and a kindness. And some business owners just can't afford it.

their strong points, so they can feel like they are earning their full potential? I understand where you are coming from and I understand Warpy's point too. Everyone has their own special talents and sometimes those talents are discovered when *kind*, patient employes, teachers, friends, etc., take notice.

But some people just aren't capable of producing at a very high level. These people need assistance, but it shouldn't be up to private individuals to provide that assistance. We should all play our part.

To me, a worker should be paid commensurate with the value they add to the company's products or services. If that isn't enough for them to live on, the government should step in and help them.

"DON'T GET CAUGHT" - D. Trump ("Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - A. Crowley)

Lies, half-truths and bait & switch abound.

3 quick cases --

Check the history of NOS communications for example:

Deceptive practices alleged at NOS Communications
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2002/jul/11/deceptive-practices-alleged-at-nos-communications/

Or WELLS FARGO
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-wells-fargos-high-pressure-sales-culture-spiraled-out-of-control-1474053044

And the beloved NFL as a recent public example of the American business zeitgeist:

“The number one goal of this league is not to respect the fans [amazing he would admit it - kind of like Trump's killing people in Times Square bragging], produce a good and safe product ["we pay the players a lot and if a few have too many concussions and kill themselves, que Serra, Serra"], and earn the respect of millions. The goal of this league which I run and basically own is to make money and a lot of it.” - Roger Goodell (NFL 2017)

Goodell also vented some during the conference about the public funding that is used to build new stadiums like the one in Las Vegas. “We provide the product, why should we have to build our own stadiums. Sure we have the money, but why should we do that when counties and cities across the country are just dying to throw money at us?” [i.e. "f*ck you all, we're greasing the GOP palms and taking the money and you can't stop us] Read David Cay Johnston on how G.W. Bush made money with the Texans.
***

"To me, to "get rich slowly" means you are ethical. You treat your employees, suppliers, partners, investors, etc well. You abide by ethics. You realize employees have legitimate needs as fellow humans and try to meet them halfway. Your employees and ex-employees have good things to say about you, in private and in public. It takes you decades to "get rich" (rich meaning perhaps $10 million USD in personal assets, arbitrary I know)." - that might have been Republican elite in the 1800's, but not now.

The billionaires and flashy millionaires get all the press.

just one anecdote for now.

abuse of the bankruptcy process is a huge source of unethical behavior. he's one i experienced as a consumer.

mrs. unblock and i got a good deal on some furniture, on sale big time from a large, well-known baby furniture store.
we put down a deposit because they didn't have what we wanted in stock but they said they'd order it and we'd get it in a few weeks.

two months and many phone calls later it turns out they never ordered it because they used our money to pay more pressing bills.
turns out, also, that the large, well-known baby furniture store operates on a franchise basis and while the large, well-known company was doing fine, the franchise we gave our money to was not.

eventually the franchise declared bankruptcy. in the end, thanks to some great negotiation from mrs. unblock, we ended up with a floor model and most (not all) of what we had ordered, and didn't have to pay the balance (we settled for just them keeping the deposit).

we didn't get too badly burned on that one, though it costs us an awful lot of time and angst in advance of mini-unblock being born....


now, i understand that anyone who gives a deposit is accepting bankruptcy risk, but it's plainly unethical to take money for one stated purpose and then use it for another. or, specifically, to take a deposit in order to place an order and then to never place that order.



as for the book, i work with trade receivables (i.e., business-to-business). there's a tremendous amount of negotiation after the fact, heavily influenced by the relative power of the buyer and seller. fascinating stuff, much of it entirely legitimate disputes, but plenty of room for unethical behavior if a buyer or seller is so inclined.

at this rate, when i'm 80 or so....

I'm not willing to charge people lots of money for work that didn't actually take lots of my time, and I'm not willing to hire someone else and pay them significantly less than the value of their work.

All that leaves is for me to work really hard and for really long hours.

And I'm too lazy for that. (Although I do it anyway.)

But I want to be. I don't want to take advantage of anyone else. I just want to get paid a fair rate for the work that I do.

But that doesn't get you rich. You just get by.

I do think that you can strike it rich by creating something that speaks to thousands of people. For instance, if you were to write a bestselling book. The people who bought the book would be getting a fair deal. Books aren't expensive. But the sheer volume of transactions could end up making it very lucrative for the author. And he hasn't exploited anyone in the process.

Yet are perfectly willing to defend paying $5/hour. Less than the legal minimum wage.

I quit because the boss was a fucking slave driver.

Most small businesses don't make that much money for the owner. I've comanaged one and saw it from the bottom up. Up wasn't up that far.

I am in private business but in an industry that does a lot of work for government clients.

I am always amazed at how little attention is paid to conflict of interest. I know some really well meaning decent people who just don't get it.

I am hyper-vigilant about it and i constantly get overruled by people who just don't see it the way I do.

I am so paranoid about it that I do not take favors from anyone. Vendors are constantly trying to do things for me because I am in a position to recommend their products. When I stand in front of a City Commission and say "Product XYZ is a good fit for your City", I want to be able to do it with a clear conscience. I never want anybody to challenge my judgement because I got something of value from the recommended vendor.

It seems obvious to me but they laugh because it makes me such an odd man out compared to their usual dealings.

But in general...

1. Follow all laws, rules, regulations, etc.
2. Some companies (like the one I work for), insist they give back to the community. Some don't care.
3. Provide a product and service that is promised. Not more, but no less either.
4. Fiscal responsibility to its Shareholders and Customers. In other words, don't gamble with revenues that leave the company bankrupt which wipes out the value of the company and destroys any warranties for the customer.
5. A fair and impartial work place.
6. Reasonable goals (for example, company I work for set some goals that were impossible, apparently there was a disconnect with upper management. Long story short, we didn't hit a single goal. But the CEO apologized and made sure we did get, albeit, minimum, bonus).
7. Transparency in its finances and dealings.

If you note, equal pay for equal work isn't there. As its considered a negotiation between the employee and employer...and considered "ethical" under society norms.

But those are just seven "norms" if you will. I once got called up by an AIG recruiter, didn't want to move so I turned it down. Later on, an independent recruiter working behalf another company was telling me about how ethical the company was in comparison to AIG which in its off site office parties would hire strippers, etc. (this is prior to the 2008 crash).

But from experience, the further away you get away from HQ and more difficult to police, that's when the unethical stuff starts to happen. Every once in awhile, this boils over and then company takes a very active role in policing that area. But in reality, its playing "whack a mole".

What I've witnessed is this...

A start up created by a group of well meaning but initially wealthy people, they are likely from elsewhere in the industry but they are not traditional people. They're shaking things up and doing things differently, i.e. treating employees fairly, paying well, great benefits, employees first, etc...

The start up has now expanded beyond the control of the original group. They need help. A local company that is known for being terrible to it's employees has caused an exodus within it's ranks because it's employees saw no ladder to climb, no benefits. All those employees from the bad company are now getting hired by this awesome new startup.

But it's not just those employees that are apart of that exodus...

Many of the board members and higher ups of that bad company are also fleeing that ship, they notice the start up needs more higher management roles, they join the start up, and BRING ALL THEIR BAD BUSINESS PRACTICES THAT RUINED THE FIRST COMPANY WITH THEM.

But this is the point, those at the top? Remained at the top during their transition the entire time. Those employees that were fleeing a bad company? They're still fucked because the bad higher ups just followed them elsewhere. No way they'll be able to climb the ladder now. And this cycle repeats. The wealthy class keeps acknowledging the wealthy class, and closing the doors for those at the bottom that are working their asses off.

When you are an attorney/lawyer, you are working FOR the client.


If your client freely pays you $300 per hour to handle the case to the best of your ability and you abide by all legal ethics, all laws, and don't engage in shady billing practices, I'd say that's pretty ethical. Of course, the client and attorney need to agree upfront on what the goal of the case is. No attorney, for example, can ethically guarantee that you will skip a murder charge. Granted, if you are filthy rich, your odds of skipping a murder charge go way up, but a guarantee ? I think not. Guarantee means 100% chance you are going to skip.

I've been to law school (dropped out), my brother is a lawyer, my dad was a lawyer, and I had two other lawyers in my family. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not going to say they are (or were) complete paragons of virtue in all respects, but I'm not aware of any shady dealings from any of them.

Wait until Gorsuch gets his chance to allow corporations to really control the country.

Don't screw with your employees by working then an hour or two for an 8 hour shift then sending them home when they are scheduled for 8. Employees plan budgets and other jobs based on when you say you will have them working, that screws them over.

Don't demand on-call hours where they are not paid at least something for arranging their lives to be able to respond as needed. My company, for example, pays an on-call fee for days you do an on-call shift even if you don't get called out. So if I make sure that day I am within the range to respond and am not drinking and not doing anything I can't drop I get some reimbursement for that.

Don't ask your employees to do illegal or unethical stuff and put them in the position of having to compromise their integrity.