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still_one

(92,217 posts)
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:20 AM Apr 2017

Is it legal for the U.S. to invade an independent county because it violates the rights

of some of its citizens?

Isn't this what they Syria situation is about?

Isn't it why invaded Iraq the last time under George W. Bush. The first invasion of Iraq we justified because we said Iraq invaded Kuwait.

The Second invasion of Iraq we justified because we said they had WMDs. That it was based on a lie isn't the point.

The point is does one country have the right to invade another country because they do not approve of its policies?



49 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is it legal for the U.S. to invade an independent county because it violates the rights (Original Post) still_one Apr 2017 OP
a missle attack is not invading beachbum bob Apr 2017 #1
Obama sent a lot of troops there last year HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #5
A missle attack on a military air base is an act of war, and US law says it is illegal except L. Coyote Apr 2017 #14
Take Trump out of the picture. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2017 #2
"Unilaterally?" malthaussen Apr 2017 #4
If the world or individual states stopped Germany when they opened their first concentration camp... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2017 #7
Coalition of the willing? HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #10
Would a 'coalition of the willing' arrayed against Germany in 1933 have been a good or bad thing? DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2017 #12
Fisrt determine who did the atrocity? Or accept what the M$M tells us to think. WMDs redux? L. Coyote Apr 2017 #15
By that logic we should IMMEDIATELY invade North Korea Calculating Apr 2017 #16
And the Democratic Republic of Congo Coventina Apr 2017 #18
The question is Calculating Apr 2017 #19
Leaders who commit atrocities against their own citizens surrender their moral right to govern. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2017 #20
It's an idea that would ideally improve life for everyone Calculating Apr 2017 #21
Problem with that is deist99 Apr 2017 #32
is that opinion, or do you have, well, sources, links? ColemanMaskell Apr 2017 #38
How about Africa, South and Central America, and Asia HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #43
Interesting . . . MichMary Apr 2017 #23
Of course. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2017 #24
Yes deist99 Apr 2017 #33
Why only pre-civil war? Kentonio Apr 2017 #47
Good questions MichMary Apr 2017 #49
"Legal" according to what law? malthaussen Apr 2017 #3
What "fig-leaf"? "..the UN Security Council refused to endorse the US-UK invasion and occupation of WinkyDink Apr 2017 #36
I don't know but that's not the real reason treestar Apr 2017 #6
I'm sensing a bit of the "not the world's police force" sentiment from you Jonny Appleseed Apr 2017 #8
2 words...Zyclon B Rustyeye77 Apr 2017 #9
I will make it legal sarisataka Apr 2017 #11
Yikes! DK504 Apr 2017 #28
Winner, winner, chicken dinner! discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2017 #30
I started a thread pointing to this. Republicans threatened to impeach Obama for this. L. Coyote Apr 2017 #13
"County?" cwydro Apr 2017 #17
What if that country, the US in this case, reserves to itself the right to interfere? guillaumeb Apr 2017 #22
Considering the fact that Trump, his minions and the Republicans avebury Apr 2017 #25
Good point! LOL Lib Apr 2017 #39
Wowsa DK504 Apr 2017 #26
If you enter the country without a visa, aren't you entering illegally? HoneyBadger Apr 2017 #27
Sombody gonna call the international cops? PoliticAverse Apr 2017 #29
There is a World Court. It is in The Hague. WinkyDink Apr 2017 #37
Would this not be more of an ICC thing -- of which the US is not a signatory? ColemanMaskell Apr 2017 #40
Yes, the reason being it doesn't want to have to live by the same rules it demands from others Kentonio Apr 2017 #48
Gulf War I had full backing from the UN and international community making it legal. stevenleser Apr 2017 #31
That is what I was trying to differentiate in the OP, which I didn't make still_one Apr 2017 #34
To your specific query and not a re-imagining of it: No, it is not legal. It is, in fact, a war WinkyDink Apr 2017 #35
It does seem to be a war crime. And not our first! ColemanMaskell Apr 2017 #41
We have had groung troops in Syria for a while, and been doing air strikes jmg257 Apr 2017 #42
Groper DOn the Con violated both malaise Apr 2017 #44
Responsibility to Protect is a global political commitment which was endorsed by all member states muriel_volestrangler Apr 2017 #45
Here is the NYTimes take: "Was Trumps Syria Strike Illegal? Explaining Presidential War Powers" still_one Apr 2017 #46
 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
1. a missle attack is not invading
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:49 AM
Apr 2017

......first iraq war when Iraq invaded Kuwait, the US had UN approval and was not just the US launching the invasion....

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
14. A missle attack on a military air base is an act of war, and US law says it is illegal except
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:22 AM
Apr 2017

under certain conditions. Trump made a statement that was intended to circumvent the law by saying it was vital to US security interests because of a threat of chemical weapons. You can research the exact wording, but, bottom line, trump lied to get around the law.


DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
2. Take Trump out of the picture.
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:51 AM
Apr 2017

No leader has the right to commit atrocities on his or her own citizens and it is incumbent on the nations of the world to act unilaterally or universally to stop that person.



malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
4. "Unilaterally?"
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:55 AM
Apr 2017

So, it is up to every country to decide what constitutes an atrocity, and what constitutes an appropriate response to it?

Can you cite any law for this? The OP was concerned with legality, after all, and did not ask about morality.

-- Mal

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
7. If the world or individual states stopped Germany when they opened their first concentration camp...
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:05 AM
Apr 2017

If the world or individual states stopped Germany when they opened their first concentration camp in 1933 tens of millions of lives could have been saved.

We are all interconnected. None of us are islands onto ourselves.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
10. Coalition of the willing?
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:11 AM
Apr 2017

Freedom fries 2017?

Would that be Russia, China, or perhaps Germany, leading it? Germany might have to leave NATO as that might violate some fine print.

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
16. By that logic we should IMMEDIATELY invade North Korea
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:25 AM
Apr 2017

Little Kimmy does some atrocious stuff to his people. After the holocaust the whole world said "Never again". Well, it's happening again to people in NK. Little Kim will have the families of dissenters condemned to torture camps/caves for 3 generations where they are starved/worked to death, tortured, and have medical experiments such as vivisection and bioweapons testing conducted on them.

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
19. The question is
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:54 AM
Apr 2017

Do we have a fundamental duty to do our best to save fellow humans from unimaginable government inflicted atrocities? Yes, no, maybe?

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
20. Leaders who commit atrocities against their own citizens surrender their moral right to govern.
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 12:00 PM
Apr 2017

That is a principle, imho, worth upholding. How you do so in a complicated world is difficult.

Isn't the opposite of that adhering to Charles Lindbergh's and Donald Trump's America First ideology which "we" are all supposed to hate?

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
21. It's an idea that would ideally improve life for everyone
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 12:11 PM
Apr 2017

Nobody would want to commit atrocities because they would know that the rest of the world would come down on them for it. As a result, life would improve for people everywhere. The problem comes about due to things such as nuclear weapons. Once a country acquires nuclear arms it becomes extremely hard, if not impossible to do anything about their abuses of human rights. Nuclear weapons are the ultimate defensive weapon in the sense that nobody wants to risk MAD and mess with you.

deist99

(122 posts)
32. Problem with that is
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 09:17 PM
Apr 2017

NK could kill a hell of a lot of South Koreans if we tried that. Considering what we know has happened in North Korea since the end of the Korean War I believe Truman should have listened to MacArthur and dropped nukes along the Yalu river to stop the Chinese and freed all of Korea.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
43. How about Africa, South and Central America, and Asia
Sun Apr 9, 2017, 07:38 AM
Apr 2017

As well as the US, all place where military and/or police killing their own is common.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
23. Interesting . . .
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 01:57 PM
Apr 2017

Would the rest of the world have been legally/morally justified in invading the US pre-Civil War to free the slaves?

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
47. Why only pre-civil war?
Sun Apr 9, 2017, 09:32 AM
Apr 2017

How about right up until civil rights? How about when America was overthrowing democratically elected regimes around the world to aid its own economic interests? What about a couple of weeks ago when it killed about 200 innocent people in another country?

Or do 'atrocities' only count when its other people doing them?

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
49. Good questions
Sun Apr 9, 2017, 10:06 AM
Apr 2017

Pre-civil war, other countries didn't have much better records than we did. That's why I mentioned the pre-civil war era.

To some extent that's still true today. There is no country that has a perfect track record when it comes to human right.

malthaussen

(17,202 posts)
3. "Legal" according to what law?
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:53 AM
Apr 2017

As for the two US invasions of Iraq, in both cases we had the fig-leaf of UN approval as far as international "law" is concerned. Most of the time we have some pretext, and some showing of support from at least some of the world community for our actions.

Domestically, it gets fuzzy because Congress has cravenly surrendered the duty imposed on it by the Constitution to declare "war." Various authorizations of force have been passed to permit us to blow things up and kill people without calling it a "war." But Presidents have usually been scrupulous about acquiring this "consent" from Congress before embarking on military action.

In general, "legal" is whatever you can get away with. So far, the US has been pretty good at getting away with whatever violence we wish to execute.

-- Mal

treestar

(82,383 posts)
6. I don't know but that's not the real reason
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:58 AM
Apr 2017

Or we'd have invaded Saudi Arabia by now, and that's just for starters.

 

Jonny Appleseed

(960 posts)
8. I'm sensing a bit of the "not the world's police force" sentiment from you
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:05 AM
Apr 2017

And I'd agree if we didn't spend 700 billion dollars on a military for a country separated from its enemies by gigantic oceans. At that point it becomes morally repugnant not to try and place peacekeeper. Either we stop pussyfooting around and embrace the title, or slash our budget by 500 billion.

Either way I'm all for scrapping military waste. We have the tech and money to turn our infantry into robots but we insist on making tanks and submarines.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
22. What if that country, the US in this case, reserves to itself the right to interfere?
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 12:15 PM
Apr 2017

A right that the US has always claimed. US Presidents from Jefferson onward have always claimed the right to interfere in the affairs of other countries. That is why the US has always been at war.

avebury

(10,952 posts)
25. Considering the fact that Trump, his minions and the Republicans
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 08:29 PM
Apr 2017

want to violate the rights of certain groups of citizens in our own country makes them all hypocrites when they attact foreign countries for violating the rights of their citizens.

DK504

(3,847 posts)
26. Wowsa
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 08:44 PM
Apr 2017

I thought it was illegal because; we needed permission from Congress 1st off and honestly an important reason. Like Pearl Harbor... maybe I'm wrong. Chances are good I'm wrong, but that's what I was taught.

 

HoneyBadger

(2,297 posts)
27. If you enter the country without a visa, aren't you entering illegally?
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 08:47 PM
Apr 2017

So if you enter Syria illegally, you can be deported by Syria. I do not believe that it violates our laws though.

Our soldiers in Syria are illegals.

"A passport and a visa are required. Visas must be obtained prior to arrival in Syria from a Syrian diplomatic mission located in the traveler’s country of residence. The Embassy of the Syrian Arab Republic in Washington, DC, however, suspended all operations, including consular services on March 18, 2014 and has not appointed a protecting power.

Foreigners who wish to stay 15 days or more in Syria must register with Syrian immigration authorities by the 15th day of their stay.

Syria charges a departure tax at its land and sea borders for all visitors except those on diplomatic passports and children under the age of 11."

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
37. There is a World Court. It is in The Hague.
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 09:49 PM
Apr 2017
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-11809908

What is the court designed to do?

To prosecute and bring to justice those responsible for the worst crimes - genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. The court has global jurisdiction.

It is a court of last resort, intervening only when national authorities cannot or will not prosecute.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
40. Would this not be more of an ICC thing -- of which the US is not a signatory?
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 10:51 PM
Apr 2017

"The United States is not a participant in the International Criminal Court (ICC)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court

The international court of justice, on the other hand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice

The International Court of Justice (French: Cour internationale de justice; commonly referred to as the World Court, ICJ or The Hague[2]) is the primary judicial branch of the United Nations (UN). Seated in the Peace Palace in The Hague, Netherlands, the court settles legal disputes submitted to it by states and provides advisory opinions on legal questions submitted to it by duly authorized international branches, agencies, and the UN General Assembly.
. . .
As stated in Article 93 of the UN Charter, all 193 UN members are automatically parties to the Court's statute ... However, being a party to the statute does not automatically give the Court jurisdiction over disputes involving those parties...
In contentious cases (adversarial proceedings seeking to settle a dispute), the ICJ produces a binding ruling between states that agree to submit to the ruling of the court.

--- end quote ---

So that doesn't sound like it would have jurisdiction either.

There is a reason the US did not sign on to the ICC treaty. The current situation is one example.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
31. Gulf War I had full backing from the UN and international community making it legal.
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 09:06 PM
Apr 2017

That makes that war very different from 2nd invasion and from Syria.

still_one

(92,217 posts)
34. That is what I was trying to differentiate in the OP, which I didn't make
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 09:31 PM
Apr 2017

very well, but you stated it perfectly

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
35. To your specific query and not a re-imagining of it: No, it is not legal. It is, in fact, a war
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 09:37 PM
Apr 2017

crime.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
42. We have had groung troops in Syria for a while, and been doing air strikes
Sat Apr 8, 2017, 11:51 PM
Apr 2017

Since 2014. When would you say the invasion took place?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
45. Responsibility to Protect is a global political commitment which was endorsed by all member states
Sun Apr 9, 2017, 08:23 AM
Apr 2017

of the United Nations at the 2005 World Summit to prevent genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect

But using force under that should have the backing of the UN Security Council.

still_one

(92,217 posts)
46. Here is the NYTimes take: "Was Trumps Syria Strike Illegal? Explaining Presidential War Powers"
Sun Apr 9, 2017, 08:56 AM
Apr 2017

"WASHINGTON — President Trump ordered the military on Thursday to carry out a missile attack on Syrian forces for using chemical weapons against civilians. The unilateral attack lacked authorization from Congress or from the United Nations Security Council, raising the question of whether he had legal authority to commit the act of war.

Mr. Trump and top members of his administration initially justified the operation as a punishment for Syria’s violating the ban on chemical weapons and an attempt at deterrence. But they did not make clear whether that was a legal argument or just a policy rationale.

The strike raises two sets of legal issues. One involves international law and when it is lawful for any nation to attack another. The other involves domestic law and who gets to decide — the president or Congress — whether the United States should attack another country.

Did Trump have clear authority under international law to attack Syria?

No. The United Nations Charter, a treaty the United States has ratified, recognizes two justifications for using force on another country’s soil without its consent: the permission of the Security Council or a self-defense claim. In the case of Syria, the United Nations did not approve the strike, and the Defense Department justified it as “intended to deter the regime from using chemical weapons again,” which is not self-defense.

........

Could the strike be justified as a humanitarian intervention?

Some human rights advocates have argued that customary international law, which develops from the practices of states, also permits using force to stop an atrocity. Others worry that accepting such a doctrine could create a loophole that would be subject to misuse, eroding important constraints on war. The United States has not taken the position that humanitarian interventions are lawful absent Security Council authorization.

Still, in 1999, the United States participated in NATO’s air war to stop the Serbian ethnic-cleansing campaign in Kosovo, even though the operation lacked a Security Council authorization. The Clinton administration never offered a clear explanation for why that operation complied with international law. Instead, it cited a list of “factors” — like the threat to peace and stability and the danger of a humanitarian disaster — without offering a theory for why those factors made that war lawful. In a seeming acknowledgment that this was dubious, the administration said the Kosovo intervention should not serve as a precedent.

.......

Did Trump have domestic legal authority to attack Syria?

The answer is murky because of a split between the apparent intent of the Constitution and how the country has been governed in practice. Most legal scholars agree that the founders wanted Congress to decide whether to go to war, except when the country is under an attack. But presidents of both parties have a long history of carrying out military operations without authorization from Congress, especially since the end of World War II, when the United States maintained a large standing army instead of demobilizing.

In the modern era, executive branch lawyers have argued that the president, as commander in chief, may use military force unilaterally if he decides a strike would be in the national interest, at least when its anticipated nature, scope and duration fall short of “a ‘war’ in the constitutional sense,” as a Clinton administration lawyer wrote in the context of a contemplated intervention in Haiti."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/us/politics/military-force-presidential-power.html?_r=0

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