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HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 10:24 AM Apr 2017

I'm a businessperson. Well, not really, but humor me:

What's in it for ME to want workers/consumers (one in the same) to have it WORSE in life?

As a Capitalist (again, hypothetical), what's in it for ME to praise a reduction in the quality of life for the middle/working/poor via wage cuts, benefit cuts, cuts to education, cuts to health care, etc.??

Shouldn't I WANT them to have disposable income so they can BUY my products/services?

"Wull, wudn't a uneeversul basic whachumucallit makin' them dipendnt on thu Gubmint" YES!! Theoretically, why should I CARE where their cash comes from? THEY HAVE MONEY. TO SPEND. ON MY SERVICES and PRODUCTS!! I WANT them to have dependency! I WANT THEM to have money to spend!! If they don't spend money, I have no business! (aside: not like we're going to GET a UBI in our lifetimes . . . but remember . . . hypothetical . . . )

Deep down, Capitalists have to understand that killing the proverbial consumer golden goose is going to mean less purchases, right? Deep down, they've GOT to get that automating/offshoring workers out of existence is going to mean less revenue for them, right?

So why do most business owners, small and large, support Schtroumpf, Republicans and the self-destructive Re-branded Feudalism they practice?
14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I'm a businessperson. Well, not really, but humor me: (Original Post) HughBeaumont Apr 2017 OP
Just a caveat... 2naSalit Apr 2017 #1
This, to me, is what massive inequality has created - HughBeaumont Apr 2017 #2
I agree. 2naSalit Apr 2017 #3
The reason they support them... Adrahil Apr 2017 #4
Definitely something to that mentioned timeline . . . . HughBeaumont Apr 2017 #7
+1 Adrahil Apr 2017 #8
Completely factually wrong taught_me_patience Apr 2017 #12
"Innovative"? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT. HughBeaumont Apr 2017 #14
Kinda hard to read, but a good post. Atman Apr 2017 #5
Their reality changes and the logic (if you can call it that) Canoe52 Apr 2017 #6
It's like in the late 80s-early 90s when minimum wage increased . . . HughBeaumont Apr 2017 #9
Greed. n/t phylny Apr 2017 #10
Here are some reasons taught_me_patience Apr 2017 #11
Both parties support automation and offshoring workers. former9thward Apr 2017 #13

2naSalit

(86,798 posts)
1. Just a caveat...
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 10:45 AM
Apr 2017

some of the rich assholes with whom I have had the misfortune to engage in some form of interaction have said - and I mean more than two of them, "The people who work for me can't afford to shop at my store, if I see one of them shopping there, I'll fire them." and "The only time I want to see my employees is when they are serving me." - From what I gathered this included off-the-clock service as well.

So I would argue that there is an inherent flaw in our social construct and I think that it is rooted in the capitalist model... we need to work on the founding precepts of socialism without applying labels to that or any other system. We can like something even if we don't label it.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
2. This, to me, is what massive inequality has created -
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 10:53 AM
Apr 2017

A section of society that truly believes they have a gene for risk, there's no such thing as luck and because THEY did it completely on their own, how DARE anyone demand they be taxed like mortals are. It's not only an economic bollocks, it's a cultural one as well.

Without some kind of understanding/cooperation between the worker and the owner, I'm afraid where we need to start (probably FDR's Second Bill of Rights) to rebuild America into one that's a success for both worker and owner will never come to pass.

2naSalit

(86,798 posts)
3. I agree.
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 11:11 AM
Apr 2017

There is also the issue of finite resources and the push for endless "growth" as though that is really all there is to life and we have to cast all of our dreams aside to facilitate "growth" because... and there really aren't any valid arguments as far as I can tell after watching this slow train-wreck for decades. Gowth = concentrated resource allocation to the wealthy, is the current definition.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
4. The reason they support them...
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 11:17 AM
Apr 2017

Is the same reason large businesses cut capability and eliminate R&D: Shortsightedness.

So many "business people" are focused on the next quarterly report.... the next business year. They are not thinking 10,15,20 years down the road when they don't have a skilled workforce, or new products ready to roll out.

Businesses that DO are going to do well.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
7. Definitely something to that mentioned timeline . . . .
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 12:08 PM
Apr 2017

Think about it:

When did Education start getting defunded and costs/responsibility of funding get shifted solely to the student? Around 20 years ago. Generation X was the last generation to have semi-affordable college. Now, higher education is priced only to the extremely poor (Pell Grants, where you have to be SO poor you're nearly starving) and the upper middle/rich/wealthy. Everyone else is screwn to the tune of 1/2 to 3/4 of a mortgage.

The resulting "brain drain", combined with the exodus of blue collar (and soon, white collar) jobs meant that we shifted from a innovation/production/manufacturing economy to one that relies 2/3 on consumer spending. That means innovation is mostly either performed in corporate labs or overseas. Compared to 10-15 years ago, we're experiencing a serious dearth in "game changers". We're only making existing products better or with more features.

Maybe the "game changers" can come in the form of structural/infrastructure repair . . . but where would the funding COME from?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
8. +1
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 12:16 PM
Apr 2017

In one of my MS classes, we discussed that US Corporations used to spend 11-13% operating budget on R&D activities. Now it's less than 4%. This is gonna bite us in the ass. This is justified by some by claiming we still spend a lot on a GDP basis, but much of the national expenditures are defense-related research. Some of that has civilian applications, but a lot doesn't.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
12. Completely factually wrong
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 02:45 PM
Apr 2017

America is still, by far, the most innovative country on Earth.

Unicorn companies are start-up companies with over $1B valuation. These are some of the most innovative/disruptive companies out there (and are startups not existing corporate labs). We have the more Unicorn companies than the rest of the world combined. Europe is not even in our realm:

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/600/1*2aUGDvGu8hMomk2G7d1geA.png



source:
https://medium.com/@mtwpang/unicorn-stats-dd0030ac8ccb
https://www.cbinsights.com/research-unicorn-companies

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
14. "Innovative"? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT.
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 03:19 PM
Apr 2017

We still cling to 20th century problem-solving on issues that needed more public largesse devoted to them. Where is our Universal Health Care? Where is the Universal Basic Income? Why is education being defunded? Where's the merely regional MagLev/High Speed Rail?

No, instead, we're saber-rattling tin-pot politically isolated dictatorships or bombing a sovereign nation's near-empty airfield for political posturing.

Speaking of which, would a country that prides itself on innovation and education have such massive lapses in judgment when it comes to who they choose as leaders?

It's a fallacy to assert that "start ups" translate to "employment".

Canoe52

(2,949 posts)
6. Their reality changes and the logic (if you can call it that)
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 11:24 AM
Apr 2017

that goes with that reality. I've worked for them and when it comes time to pay up they come up with the weirdest logic as to why they should pay less than we had originally agreed on.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
9. It's like in the late 80s-early 90s when minimum wage increased . . .
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 01:12 PM
Apr 2017

. . . you should have seen the manager at the crap job I was in at the time dance, bob and weave all the reasons why those already making the new minimum didn't see an increase in their wage as the MW rose.

That was my first lesson in winner-destroy-everything Capitalism . . . an event that pushed me to the Democratic side of the fence.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
11. Here are some reasons
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 02:21 PM
Apr 2017

#1) Business is extremely competitive. Competition is fierce and consumers are picky, which makes profits margins every low for most business. It makes its nearly impossible to pay above market wages and remain competitive. Therefore, individual businesses have little power, on their own, to really affect wages.

#2) The actual market for a business needs to be huge relative to the day to day volume. A small retail store might need 5,000 customers to remain viable. Paying ten associates more would have no impact on increasing business

#3) Consumers don't actually care about high value employee service and vote with their wallets on price.

#4) Many businesses know where they stand. The person running the corner Subway franchise knows sandwich making is a low end job and not a career. They know people do not last long in the role. It is up to the individual to move on and make more money for themselves. Most business people I know are not cruel or heartless... they actually want people to succeed. Many of them will actually encourage people to move on for a better position even when it is detrimental to their business.

#5) Many business people are moderate/liberal democrats who are trying to do right to their employees.

former9thward

(32,082 posts)
13. Both parties support automation and offshoring workers.
Mon Apr 24, 2017, 02:49 PM
Apr 2017

And neither has an intelligent answer to the problems that result.

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