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raccoon

(31,118 posts)
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 02:28 PM Jul 2012

I wonder if Vietnam war would have ended years earlier …without the baby boomers.


You had a very large generation coming of draftable age at the time. If the generation had been smaller,
say like those born in the 1930’s, things might have been different.

(You all should know by now that I love to speculate on What if..this or that had been different...)




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pnwmom

(108,990 posts)
1. It would have ended years sooner without the draft. The reason draftees were eventually sent
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 02:46 PM
Jul 2012

was that they couldn't wage the war they wanted using a small volunteer force.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
2. Bush took care of the lack of cannon fodder by enlisting non-citizens and granting it if they lived.
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 03:24 PM
Jul 2012

The major difference between the Vietnam war and now is that we have an all-voluntary military. They are given inducements to sign up, along with their families. For some, it is the benefits, others, a need to belong and do something, and then there are the contractors. Vietnam had many volunteers, children of the Cold War, believing in the Domino Theory, which was false. The corporate interests in the Vietnam and the wars since then, have become more and more obvious. But in the Vietnam era as you say, there was a large pool to pick from.

The thing that made it different than the present in my mind, at least, was the draft. Many did want to go, and they were taken before they could even vote, as we did not get the voting age down to 18 until 1971 near the end of the war. So they were not willing draftees, were threatened with imprisonment and were shipped off to whatever fate awaited, counting on the brotherhood of their fellows to survive. Many did not, either dying or being maimed, or not recovering from what they were ordered to do and be a part of.

Politically, I see the disconnection between war making and the public as being a function of not having a draft. In the Vietnam era, every young man knew that he was liable to be ripped from his civilian life and possibly slaughtered for the purposes of those running the government. It made the war the constant topic and concern of them and those who cared about them. The young people demanded a say. History will show if their having a say, made a difference. The rich likely figured the purposes of the war had been accomplished, as they weighed the domestic atmosphere approaching open rebellion with people being killed on all sides at home, with their profits. It is said that they decided to end the war and not us the little people. With 911 the wars have been reduced by Obama and that is cutting down the profits, but not altogether.

Where do we fit into all of this, since you are asking questions, just as many of us do. The American public now is composed of many people who have joined the military voluntarily and expect all the same perks as those who had everything to lose and no say so, after having been abused or rewarded, depending on who you ask about it, for something they volunteered to do.

I see them differently than those in the past who were almost literally, dragged kicking and screaming against being sent to war. For whom it was all or nothing, now it is seen as way to get an education, health care and benefits not available to others. Why do I say this?

Because those I know involved tell me so, they consider themselves above average Americans who have not been in the service. They demand to be given these things, and our respect, while schools and infrastructure and health care and housing for those not joining are lacking. The difference is that in Vietnam, going to war was going to happen and not by the wishes of many who were drafted, not enlisted. I know many who enlisted because of the lottery numbers they had, knowing the draft would be picking them up if they didn't. They wanted to get into whatever branches they thought were going to be less likely to get them maimed or killed. But it was thing that the young men faced that women did not face, and one had to face giving up everything as a civilian for not going, or giving up everything as a soldier.

Right now we have had an economic model and a lot of propaganda applied to young men and women that was not happening during the Vietnam era. Being in the service is now normalized, as a career choice with special sentimental meanings for most people. Back then, it was a possible death sentence and wars were traditionally considered a necessary evil. Now they're an optional thing, and so is the service. Maybe.

May have taken a long walkabout from your thread, but if you were only speaking of population, I'd say that the abundance of fodder for the fire didn't seem to be the purpose of the Vietnam war, just profit. I had an uncle who came from Sweden to America around the time of WW1 because he said, they were drafting men to go to war and they knew already, they were royalty's pawns. That they traditionally gained nothing from the wars but coming back in one piece. That is the brutality of life for many people of the world, no matter how you sliced it . He was a merchant marine, so in a way already in the war and told me some very interesting stories about it that are not in the books given to us. The mood between for example, the Germans and those they captured at sea was different than the picture handed down about WW2. He said they were all mates, they weren't hateful. It was just what they'd been forced into doing.

As far as that royalty, I remember reading accounts of how the rich and powerful in the many wars in Europe would have picnics on the high views above the fields of battle. They were served their meals while the men killed each other below. Sort of like the sky boxes above a football field, enjoying yourselves while the men below ram into each other's heads and shoulders, valiantly trying to win a point, score a touch down, intercept a pass from the opposing team, and watch the little people and their emotional response below them.

Key words, below them, which may be part of what you were getting out. Population reduction of too plentiful caterpillars in the dust, for entertainment and profit. I do not possess any fantasies about the righteousness of going to war, and although my family members in the past served in our country's wars, and also for the nobles of Britain for centuries before that and got their rewards, they told me there was no reward in the long run. They had awoken from the dream, the spell, stopped listening to the hocus pocus of religion and royals. If we don't as a people stop listening and giving credence to those who sell us on wars, and that's what virtually every institution in this country does, in one way or another, sells that mind set, we've devalued our lives and those of others and will be handled as cattle. I don't know if that is anything like where you were going, but that's the kind of questions you thread made me ask myself.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
3. Without the boomers history would have been so different it would be pointless to talk about it..
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 03:28 PM
Jul 2012

A lack of boomers certainly implies a very different end to WWII and hence makes anything that comes after simply unguessable even.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
4. It wasn't "ended" it was lost...even with the drafted boomers.
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 03:31 PM
Jul 2012

I wonder how big the "surge" in Afghanistan would have been if Obama had the draft to supply the cannon fodder.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
5. I'm not sure I follow your logic
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 03:52 PM
Jul 2012

The population was smaller at the time of WWII than at the time of the Vietnam War, but that didn't deter the country from waging that war. Far more of those serving during WWII were draftees (both overall and as a percentage of those serving) than during Vietnam. And, of course, far more died during WWII than during the Vietnam War.

yellowcanine

(35,701 posts)
6. Roughly one third were draftees, though many likely enlisted to have a little more
Mon Jul 9, 2012, 03:58 PM
Jul 2012

control as to when and how they did their military service.

Not clear though that they could not have waged the war without draftees. The war actually was relatively popular early on and with the right incentives offered to enlistees, who knew? For example, it is likely that enlistment rates would have been a lot higher with a 2 year enlistment, coupled with large signing bonuses and higher combat pay as well as more generous GI Bill benefits. And lots of federal government jobs then gave significant preference points to veterans - so much so that a veteran could go to one of the many state colleges and universities on the GI bill and get paid a stipend in addition to having the tuition paid and then transition to a fairly good paying federal job with benefits right out of school. Even with the 6 year enlistment and few incentives a lot of young men (and women) signed up. Thinking pragmatically, it was probably a mistake not to transition to an all volunteer force of short term enlistees (and then offer large bonuses for re upping) as soon as it became apparent that many troops would be needed. What is clear is that the draft influenced how people felt about the war. l

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