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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn 18 years since Naders run, what has been accomplished by complaining about it?
Democrats need to stay laser focused on winning elections. We need to keep our eyes on the prize. Winning elections. I fail to see how insulting those closest to us politically furthers that goal. In fact it hampers it. Like it or not marketing is a part of politics. We need as many Americans as possible to value our brand and vote for our candidates. Insulting every group of voters we failed to convince to vote our way is counter productive.
Now is the time to emulate the actions and attitudes of MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela. Not the worst of the opposition.
american_ideals
(613 posts)It shows how hatemongers in America help GOP candidates by pushing Nader and other independents.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I'm all for calling out corruption, voter suppression, etc. I'm not for insulting voters we failed to convince to vote for our candidates.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)It's worth talking about Nader and Stein being supported by Putin, Rove and the GOP.
I know you're trying to draw a distinction between two kinds of Nader, Stein talk - but it's important to let Nader, Stein and future Naders and Steins know that they are hurting their country. As are the supporters of such candidates. If you like Putin, vote for Stein.
"Both sides are the same" is a lie pushed by Rove, Putin, and the GOP.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)This is what I'm talking about. Bad and counterproductive marketing. That kind of comment doesn't inspire voting. It depresses it. Study after study has shown this. When more people vote Democrats win.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)We can both increase turnout and tell the truth about the politicking in our elections.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Domestic billionaires like Koch Bros. and Walmart Family and foreign dictators like Saudi Family and Putin buy influence from who ever is selling. The issue is money in politics. Not which party was the latest to get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This OP could have been closed down after that.
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)Who, by the way, handed Bill Clinton the Presidency
People need to get over it
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Big difference between Perot and Stein, Nader.
(mainly because there are no big Dem donors comparable to the Koches, funders of Judicial Watch, etc.)
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Do you really believe that this is the first election influenced by dirty money, foreign and domestic? Do you really believe we don't do the same in foreign countries?
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Plain and simple.
Whatabout other countries? Whatabout other elections?
Yeah, those are important. But here we are talking about Putin and Stein and Rove and Nader.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The issue is Democrats winning elections. Talking about Putin and Stein and Rove and Nader does not help Democrats win elections. It's inside the beltway, DC cocktail party, cable news gossip. Putin, Stein, Rove and Nader are not accused of any crimes that will land them in jail.
Meanwhile my family, friends, and neighbors are struggling to keep a roof over heads. Jobs, health care, student debt are their daily concerns. Not what Nader did 18 years ago.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)Talking about the very topic of the thread is the exact opposite of whataboutism. If you would prefer to discuss something else, perhaps you shouldn't have posted a thread about Nader and Stein.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)What's your point? I must be some Putin lover because Trump occasionally says something based in reality?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)As he is about 9/11. He is not correct to blow off what the Russians did for him as a normal regular occurrence. Far from it. I can't believe I'm reading this bullshit here.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I think you need your bullshit meter serviced.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)While being complete bullshit. I don't happen to think a farmers 27$ is more important than an urban office workers either. That shit got ridiculous, so much misinformation.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)The system is corrupt. Money corrupts our political system. Crosscheck is a symptom of the problem. The problem is the money.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Nothing to do with the Dems. That's crazy talk- and designed to disgust people so they don't vote.
Every senator to some extent represents their own local economic interests- whether it's building F-16s or keeping businesses in NYC after 9/11. It's naive to think millions of people should be disenfranchised because they have an office job in the tri-state area but people are actually suggesting that. Farmers and hunters are not intrinsically better human beings than urban office workers. They get unlimited pork and the NRA pushing the giv around. It's and anti Dem myth to say they're just as corrupt or profiting anywhere near what the GOP is trying to achieve w crosscheck.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)of money in politics and the behavior of Republicans? Wow!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)become a smear on Democrats? Money corrupts the system. Democrats and Republicans are a part of the system. This is not an "us against them" argument.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The GOP and Dems. The GOP wants to take out tax money and not deliver anything. Individual Dems are often going to support their local constituencies- including the military for some, including businesses you don't like. It's not the same thing as collaborating with the enemy to destroy the checks and balances and democracy itself. Different states have competing interests that you not might like, but traditionally politicians fight for their slice of the pie. That's not the same thing as trying to create a kleptocracy and dismantle the govt for profit. Not comparable at all.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 8, 2017, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)
Like the Iraq War? Single Payer health care? $15 minimum wage? Free college? Fracking? Assault weapons ban? War on drugs? Legalizing marijuana? Making Bush tax cuts permanent? Those kind of huge policy differences?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)By the GOP. No difference between supporting the biggest increase ever and slashing it- right? No doffernce in expanding Medicare and social security and totally gutting them and the ACA?
What a load of horseshit.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Measuring Democratic success by GOP standards. Accepting Republican framing of all issues. Letting conservatives shape our policy goals.
Sorry. Marginally better than Republicans isn't good enough anymore. Baby steps better than the GOP isn't cutting it. Incrementalism has failed as strategy and as policy.
They don't write songs and build statues to incrementalists. The time is now to advocate for bold policy changes like single payer. Not begging to keep Republican inspired health care plans like Romneycare.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Measured these policies and lied saying they are only marginally different. Insuring millions of people or letting them go without healthcare is not some small difference.
Fuck songs and statues. I reject the alt left framing of needing inspiration- a heroic figure- instead of tangible gains.
We're talking about human lives, civil rights, the right to control your own body. These are only small things to the most privileged among us, only small to those who already have theirs. They gambled away the presidency hoping for a fucking jackpot, and we all lost and are suffering because of it.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Millions of people are sick and dying right now, today, in the richest country of all time. Maybe you're willing to write them off in the name of incrementalism. I'm not. I don't consider health care some "fucking jackpot" reserved for the lucky. It's a human right. When it comes to human rights you're goddamn right I'm a purist. No half stepping, no half measures, no surrender.
I step over the sick and dying living on the street everyday. I have to look in their yellowy blood shot eyes and tell them sorry I don't have any extra money today. I see them deteriorate before my very eyes from preventable and treatable injuries and disease. Then I hear the sirens of the ambulances that take them away for the last time.
Maybe that's good enough for you. Not for me. I'm a Democrat.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Some idiots thought 12$ wasn't inspiring enough for them. Twelve had broad support in the senate, yet some claim shooting for the moon is "brilliant negotiating"
Bullshit on the yellowed eyes and sirens. I grew up in the Bronx, LOL. Who do you think you're fooling with that crap? No one.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)?quality=85&strip=all&strip=all
&maxh=400&maxw=667
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)screwed over poor people because the candidates against universal health care won? Is that your logic?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Crap and fuck the Russian boys that push that crap.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)I want you to look at the graphic below and then take another look at my neighbors in the pics above and tell me why you think this an acceptable state of affairs in a so-called civilized nation. The richest nation in the world. The richest nation in the history of richest nations.
No. This is not good enough. As a matter of fact it's fucking disgusting.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/toporgs.php
As this shows Democrats have large individual donors and organization donors.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)So people who talk about what Nader did are trying to educate others about the historical lesson to be learned.
And yet some people voted for Nader and then Stein, out of the misguided idea that this would help progressive causes. They obviously didn't learn.
On the other hand, fewer people voted for Stein than for Nader, so some people are educable.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)And history has taught us that smug paternalism against voters doesn't win Democrats elections. This is Marketing 101. Don't insult your customers.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Gore lost by 500 votes. Nader, who'd spent the campaign lying about him being the same as Bush, drew 95K.
Hillary lost because of voter suppression, Russian meddling, and Comey's two letter bombs.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Complain until Nader says he's sorry? What's the end game here? I want Democrats to start winning elections. That's what my top priority is.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)by being realistic about the spoiler effect Nader and Stein had on the elections of 2000 and 2006.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Nader and Stein are Americans exercising their rights as American citizens to run for office under the Constitution of the United States of America.
Complaining about how Democracy works doesn't get Democrats elected.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and to help defeat HRC.
As a retired General, Flynn had to report the $45K he received for attending Putin's little get-together. As a private citizen, Jill Stein did not.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/how-putin-played-the-far-left
Perhaps the starkest case in point is Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein and her constituency. In December 2015, the Kremlin feted Stein by inviting her to the gala celebrating the 10-year anniversary of Kremlin-funded propaganda network RT. Over a year later, it remains unclear who paid for Steins trip to Moscow and her accommodations there. Her campaign ignored multiple questions on this score. We do know, however, that Stein sat at the same table as both Putin and Lt. Gen. Mike Flynn, Trumps soon-to-be national security adviser. She further spoke at an RT-sponsored panel, using her presence to criticize the U.S.s disastrous militarism. Afterward, straddling Moscows Red Square, Stein described the panel as inspiring, going on to claim that Putin, whom she painted as a political novice, told her he agree[d] with her on many issues.
SNIP
Green Party officials across Europe slammed a delusional Stein for her views, with leading Russian environmental activists saying they were deeply shocked by her comments during her Moscow trip.
No matter. For her efforts in burnishing Kremlin conspiracy theories for American audiences, Stein was awarded not simply with an invitation to the 2015 RT gala, but RT even hosted her partys 2016 presidential debatea move Stein hailed as a step towards real democracy. RT also covered live updates from Steins reactions to the debates between Clinton and Trump, a decision Stein further praised. This mutual affection is, naturally, of a piece with RTs broader modus operandi in the U.S.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)How does this help get Democrats get elected because that's what I'm laser focused on. Inside the the beltway, DC cocktail circuit, cable news gossip about the dinner engagements of some aging hippie chick running for office on a third party ticket isn't inspiring Americans to vote for Democrats
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)for the Republicans...you want to win vote for the candidate with the 'D' next to his/her name...and show up in mid terms.
Raster
(20,998 posts)<snip>
It is true that approximately 95,000 Florida ballots were cast for Nader in 2000, and assuming every single one of those votes went instead to then-Vice President Al Gore (which is an incorrect assumption, but we'll get to that later), Gore would have been easily able to supplant the 537 vote differential in the Sunshine State that gave Bush the presidency.
What that oft-cited factoid leaves out are the inconvenient truths laid out by Jim Hightower in Salon way back when, including the fact that only about 24,000 registered Democrats voted for Nader in Florida, whereas about 308,000 Democrats voted for (wait for it...) Bush! Further, approximately 191,000 self-identified "liberals" voted for Bush, as opposed to the fewer than 34,000 who went with Nader.
<snip,more>
OVER 300,00 FLORIDA DEMOCRATS voted for Bush*.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)to result in his winning -- just a fraction of them would have changed the election.
The registered "Democrats" who voted for Bush had largely ceased voting as Democrats long before -- especially during the Reagan Presidency. Those weren't votes Gore ever expected to get.
But any voter with real progressive goals should have voted for Gore, and not been duped into voting for Nader.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Nader voters who vote for Nader = Bad!
Democrats who vote for Bush = Okay....whatever!
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)from years, even decades, ago.
The south used to be heavily Democratic. In recent times it's become Republican -- but many people haven't changed their registrations to reflect their current voting preferences.
Why should they? Most people don't vote in primaries, so to many people their party registration is unimportant.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)just as long as they've been lazy for long periods of time?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)change their old registrations.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)because they were......wait for it.......lazy!
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)if not before.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republicans-voter-registration-gains-probably-arent-gains-at-all/
Party registration can often be a lagging, rather than leading, indicator. As southern states, Florida and North Carolina are home to large numbers of registered Democrats who have nonetheless already been voting Republican for years.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)If you're registered as a Democrat you're a Democrat. Period! Case closed! Just like you can't run around and call yourself single when registered at City Hall as married. "Yeah your honor, see, I wasn't really married to first wife when I married my second wife, I mean I was registered and all but I really wasn't feeling it in my heart so it doesn't count."
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)I went to homes with registered Democrats that had confederate flags flying in their yards...and McCain, Romney and Trump signs depending on the year...one guy threatened me with his fucking dog...but I had pepper spray...when I went out in rural Ohio...my daughter stayed in the car ready to call 9-11 because although we were only calling on Democrats...you never knew if they were still Democrats and the GOP voters were generally belligerent and nasty...it could be dangerous at times...Ohio has open primaries and some had changed their politics but not their registration.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)they send me out because I am willing to go...many aren't haha...hubs gets so irritated and goes with me when he is home...My only rule is ...I won't knock on the door if they have a confederate flag...the office got a chuckle when I noted C.F. on my paperwork ...confederate flag. Seriously, I have been threatened more than once, but our area went for Hills ...proud of that...in a sea of red.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)They recognize how fluid party affiliation is, even if you don't. It's one of the challenges in making their predictions.
Many people have been voting for Republicans for so long they don't even remember that years ago they first registered as Democrats.
JI7
(89,249 posts)registered democrat as was much of kentucky. but there was no way a democrat was going to win that state in a presidential election and they have been voting for republicans.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)Of course people are going to call out Nader when he pretends he does not want Republicans to win. (Likewise, of course people are going to call out his voters, who either themselves do not desire progressive policy, or are very poorly educated in how the world works.)
The reason people don't complain the same way about Bush, or about Democrats voting for Bush, is because Bush (and Bush voters) do not claim to have progressive goals. Of course, people will attack Bush (and his voters) for many OTHER reasons -- namely, the substantive policies they support. But they don't attack him for pretending to be progressive, because he doesn't pretend to be progressive.
JI7
(89,249 posts)nothing else.
TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts).
If both Johnson and Stein didn't run, Trump would have won by a larger margin.
.
JI7
(89,249 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Complaining about how Democracy works doesn't win Democrats elections.
JI7
(89,249 posts)Democrats have won more than greens.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)This is what concerns me.
JI7
(89,249 posts)That held them.
If we win they back it will take conservative democrats unless is a place where there are more non white people moving I like virginia.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)That will fix the problem?
JI7
(89,249 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)than Green Party members even exist.
JI7
(89,249 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)People who are in fact Republicans register Democratic all the time for various reasons. I am sure the reverse happens too.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)destroyed...I will never stop reminding people about Nader...hopefully with the horrible example of Kremlin Jill, the Greens who help only the GOP will lose all backing a disappear. They are spoilers.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)It's his right as an American. Complaining about how Democracy works doesn't win Democrats elections.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)That's not changing. The two party system is not mandated by our Constitution. The ability for any American to run for political office is. You're just going to have to get over that.
Complaining about how Democracy works doesn't win Democrats elections.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)Green traitors who can never win anything but only help the GOP.
JI7
(89,249 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)Their fuckery leads to outcomes which are the opposite of what they claim to care about....
I will never take a single one of them seriously ( matter of fact I hope their nonsense continues to be highlighted) until they can show they care more than just spoiling presidential elections - And they are WORSE than Libertarians - at least Libertarians understand game theory.
kysrsoze
(6,021 posts)If you possess true Democratic principles, you don't shit all over Democratic Party candidates and pretend there's no consequence to voting and campaigning against them. Anyone who feels the opposite should take a good hard look at that photo of Jill Stein at the dinner table with Putin. On his most subversive day, Bernie Sanders never went that far. To absolute hell with the Green Party for never attempting to push their agenda in way that would actually work and for actively campaigning against Democratic candidates. It was never an effort against Republicans. It was always that bullshit about both parties being the same, when anyone with even a shred of critical thought knew that wasn't true. Their shallow, absolutist approach never benefitted anyone but Republican candidates.
If you find this diatribe unacceptable, you're welcome to start your own website; www.greenunderground.com, perhaps? Just don't expect anyone here to support your lack of support for our efforts.
JI7
(89,249 posts)We can talk about the harm they do and their intentions
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Which is more insulting? People in rural areas are too stupid learn or Democratic policies and powers of persuasion are so weak we can't even convince hillbillies to vote for them.
JI7
(89,249 posts)You are the one making comments about their intelligence and where they live.
I don't question their intelligence. They are voting for exactly what they want.
And greens can't get their support either. Even less than democrats.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)You are.
JI7
(89,249 posts)But they don't.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)doesn't win elections for Democrats. Is this really that difficult?
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)I generally don't see people arguing for the repeal of laws that permit third parties to run. Instead, I see people rightfully exposing that Nader and his enablers are not motivated by a desire to enact progressive policy. Exposing the real motives of candidates is an important and essential part of political campaigning. In Nader's case, it has been devastatingly effective (causing Nader's vote share to drop by 90% from 2000 to 2004.)
You like to pretend that people are not doing this, and instead "complaining about the democratic process," because creating and then attacking arguments that people aren't making is the best you can do. But that says a lot more about your argument than it does about what you are critiquing.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Uhm....no it isn't. Democrats have lost the White House, the Senate, Congress, State houses, and Governors. Demonstrably your assertion is false.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)"Challenging Hillary from the left is a good idea." "Uhm....no it isn't. Democrats have lost the White House, the Senate, Congress, State houses, and Governors. Demonstrably your assertion is false."
"Trying to push Hillary to the left after her nomination is a good idea." "Uhm....no it isn't. Democrats have lost the White House, the Senate, Congress, State houses, and Governors. Demonstrably your assertion is false."
"Preventing Republicans from enacting the Ryan Budget is a good idea." "Uhm....no it isn't. Democrats have lost the White House, the Senate, Congress, State houses, and Governors. Demonstrably your assertion is false."
"Deciding not to nuke all of Europe is a good idea." "Uhm....no it isn't. Democrats have lost the White House, the Senate, Congress, State houses, and Governors. Demonstrably your assertion is false."
Feel free to try again
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)Are you saying we shouldn't be complaining about them?
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Stop with the complaining and start with Democratic policy positions that affect and improve the lives of Americans. Sell them and sell them hard. Relentless campaigning laying out the specifics of how voting Democratic will create jobs, bring universal health care, eliminate student debt, etc.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)I am very happy that your view of how campaigns should be run has zero influence over how campaigns are conducted.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Grand bargain? Making Bush tax cuts permanent? Killing the public option? Reaching across the aisle for bi-partisan consensus?
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)then that might be a signal that you have no argument.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)G_j
(40,367 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 8, 2017, 12:28 PM - Edit history (1)
it's an insult to the CBC, and to all of us.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)jobycom
(49,038 posts)Politics isn't about sitting around a room waiting to run to a voting booth to cast a ballot we've known our whole lives we would cast. It's about the discussion. I'm not the same person I was 18 years ago, and that's largely because of the arguments I've had with Nader supporters, and Bush supporters, and Obama supporters, as much as with Republicans.
My views on race and gender, always liberal, have changed by hearing the complaints of non-white people, and non-male people. I remember arguing about gay rights here ten years ago with a gay friend, and leaving feeling like he just didn't get it (it was over method of gaining rights, not over whether rights should be gained). Now I look back on that argument in shame, knowing I was 100% wrong, even if my intentions were good. If I had never had that argument, I never would have grown past my short-sightedness then. I've had similar moments on race, gender, and even on degrees of left-ism.
We should complain about Nader. And Clinton. And Obama. And everyone else who we think is wrong. We should complain, fight, listen, and learn. Maybe we are the ones who are right. Maybe we aren't, and will learn that. And maybe over time the amount of information we take in during these arguments will make us better people, having heard the views of others and therefore better understood our own.
We aren't winning elections because we are divided. Maybe the coalition of voters the Democrats are trying to get isn't workable. We haven't found a way to unite the needs of Black Lives Matter with southern moderate white voters with blue collar union workers with feminist voters with Naderites with whomever. We're not hitting a message of justice, equality, and prosperity for all that all voters understand. Our goals are right, but our message is fragmented.
And the only way I know of to fix that is to argue until we all hear each other and work together. Or rather, until a candidate and that candidate's campaign structure hears us and gives us a message we can all embrace.
The worst part is, we're not even losing elections. The last Republican to take the White House with a popular victory was Bush in 1988. Some states have more Democrats voting for representatives and legislators, but wind up with more Republicans in office because of the districts that have been drawn. We don't have a fair democracy in the US.
So to me, the ways to win are to 1) argue until we come to a consensus, 2) reform the Electoral College and the way our elections are structured to better reflect the views of the people, and 3) find a way to show the majority that the same issue that drives Black Lives Matter also drives Labor, Feminism, the Middle Class, and even many people who think they are conservative now. Human dignity. Human rights. Justice. Equality. Whatever we want to call it. We are right on the issue, but we are terrible at explaining it.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Call Nader out all you want. My issue is blaming the Democratic process for losing elections. There will always be third party candidates. If the mere existence of third party candidates determine we will automatically lose we're in for a lot of losses.
You mean I typed all those words for nothing? Dang.
ms liberty
(8,577 posts)To say that you did not type those words for nothing; while I agree somewhat with the OP, I think your post was great, and I agree with what you've posted 100%.
By the time I got to the fourth paragraph, I knew I was going to be telling you that this deserves to be an OP itself - I'd rec it!
kcr
(15,317 posts)Particularly the last two paragraphs, but all of it is well said.
Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)voting for Stein last year, and was successful, too!
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Hillary lost. We also lost the Senate, the Congress, most state houses, and governors.
Foamfollower
(1,097 posts)The person I convinced became active in working for Hillary.
Others weren't successful because OTHERS forgot the lesson off Nader.
rock
(13,218 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)It's getting Democrats elected.
rock
(13,218 posts)"What has been accomplished by complaining about it?" I gave you a well-implied answer. You now raise another question.
brutus smith
(685 posts)conversing with some of these people. I sometimes wonder if the deplorables infiltrated this site.
JI7
(89,249 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)I for one intend to continue to make sure that people don't forget that fact. You can keep apologizing for them if you want, but not me.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Everyone who isn't Democrat is a GOP ally. If I'm wrong please list all competing political parties you consider allies of Democrats.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)BzaDem
(11,142 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)The gun toting, rebel flag waving, racist, bigot is the same as a tree hugging, hippie girl? We should treat them exactly the same because they are enemy?
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)I'm not going to address your juvenile characterization of what I said. I am just going to repeat what I said. If someone knowingly and willfully helps ensure Republican victories through their voting behavior, that says all I need to know about them. Any claim that they are motivated by progressive ideals is often false and in any case irrelevant to the harm they cause. They are exercising their political power to harm millions of their fellow citizens.
Do they have the absolute right to harm millions of their fellow citizens in this way? Of course. No one is arguing otherwise, and the fact that you keep disputing what no one is asserting should be a hint to you that your position is badly lacking in logic and coherence.
I know that speaking the truth might make certain people uncomfortable. That is precisely the point. Again, there is a reason that Nader's vote share dropped by 90% from 2000 to 2004, and (breaking news) it isn't because we had a more progressive nominee. You may not like the fact that it is effective, and might even prefer that others stop focusing on it. Your concern will continue to be noted and ignored, because most people here prefer to take action to further Democratic victories, and your strategy runs counter to that goal (whether you have figured that out yet or not).
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The Libertarians, for example, tend to draw equally from both parties, or if anything they draw more GOP votes than Dem votes.
Why do I call the Greens GOP allies? It's simple really. They campaign against Democrats, and help Republicans get elected. By any conceivable definition, that makes them GOP allies.
ismnotwasm
(41,982 posts)Should have complained louder.
sfwriter
(3,032 posts)Nobody owes us a vote. We earn them every cycle.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)from here on out. Rich donors flashing cash around just doesn't bring in those votes like they used to. Looks like we're going to have to address issues that actually affect everyday working Americans of all ages, races, genders, and economic groups.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)It has been rescinded...we need money to win.
Demsrule86
(68,576 posts)they are not left but more libertarian...because no true lefty would vote Republican or Green.
lovemydogs
(575 posts)Owl
(3,642 posts)BzaDem
(11,142 posts)This is despite an arguably less progressive candidate in '04.
Explaining to someone how their actions are self-destructive is necessary, if one's goal is to end the self-destructive behavior. However, such explanations, even if necessary, are not always sufficient. Any parent with a five year old can attest to that. Sometimes, it takes absorbing all of the negative consequences of one's actions before people start thinking clearly.
Saying we should stop complaining about Nader is like telling a parent to stop telling their toddler not to touch the hot stove. It is an absurd suggestion, even if such reminders are not always sufficient to change the problematic behavior by themselves.
susanna
(5,231 posts)Like not pissing on the party you're trying to work with.
So far, you're zero for zero.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)To accuse a life long Democrat of "pissing on the party" is disgusting. I've voted for enough Democrats to fill a jumbo jet. Consider self deleting.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Anti Dem trolling to dismiss the ACA and ignore the reasons it isn't better. It's the GOP's fault.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)If you work a full time job as an American citizen you should be able to afford an apartment.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Looks like you need some new ones- maybe the ones minimizing Putins influence? Those are newer.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)already figured this out. The entire left of center needs to come together.
Gothmog
(145,243 posts)The gutting of the voting rights act due to he Shelby County case is really affecting my state. We have a horrible voter id law and some extreme gerrymandering due to Nader and the Green parties.
It is hard to forget this
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)Thank you.