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There were, as it turns out, a great number of Charlottesville locals present to witness the violence and lawlessness on display in this townmy townlast weekend. I asked local witnesses, many in the faith community, every one of whom was on the streets of Charlottesville on Saturday, whether there was a violent, club-wielding mob threatening the good people on team Nazi. Heres what I heard back:
Brandy Daniels
Postdoctoral fellow at the Luce Project on Religion and Its Publics at UVA
It was basically impossible to miss the antifa for the group of us who were on the steps of Emancipation Park in an effort to block the Nazis and alt-righters from entering. Soon after we got to the steps and linked arms, a group of white supremacistsIm guessing somewhere between 20-45 of themcame up with their shields and batons and bats and shoved through us. We tried not to break the line, but they got through some of usit was terrifying, to say the leastshoving forcefully with their shields and knocking a few folks over. We strengthened our resolve and committed to not break the line again. Some of the anarchists and anti-fascist folks came up to us and asked why we let them through and asked what they could do to help. Rev. Osagyefo Sekou talked with them for a bit, explaining what we were doing and our stance and asking them to not provoke the Nazis. They agreed quickly and stood right in front of us, offering their help and protection.
Less than 10 minutes later, a much larger group of the Nazi alt-righters come barreling up. My memory is again murky on the details. (I was frankly focused on not bolting from the scene and/or not soiling myselfI know hyperbole is common in recounting stories like these, but I was legitimately very worried for my well-being and safety, so I was trying to remember the training I had acquired as well as, for resolve, to remember why I was standing there.) But it had to have been at least 100 of them this go around. I recall feeling like I was going to pass out and was thankful that I was locked arms with folks so that I wouldnt fall to the ground before getting beaten. I knew that the five anarchists and antifa in front of us and the 20 or so of us were no match for the 100-plus of them, but at this point I wasnt letting go.
Cornel West said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didnt roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggeration.
Brandy Daniels
At that point, more of the anarchists and antifa milling nearby saw the huge mob of the Nazis approach and stepped in. They were about 200-300 feet away from us and stepped between us (the clergy and faith leaders) and the Nazis. This enraged the Nazis, who indeed quickly responded violently. At this point, Sekou made a call that it was unsafeit had gotten very violent very fastand told us to disperse quickly.
While one obviously cant objectively say what a kind of alternate reality or sliding doorstype situation would have been, one can hypothesize or theorize. Based on what was happening all around, the looks on their faces, the sheer number of them, and the weapons they were wielding, my hypothesis or theory is that had the antifa not stepped in, those of us standing on the steps would definitely have been injured, very likely gravely so. On Democracy Now, Cornel West, who was also in the line with us, said that he felt that the antifa saved his life. I didnt roll my eyes at that statement or see it as an exaggerationI saw it as a very reasonable hypothesis based on the facts we had.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html
gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)So, finally, we're getting rid of that idiotic, medieval old nonsense of "I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
No civilized country can tolerate dissention...if you let them get away with it once, they're just
encouraged. We have to stop the 'alt-right' from spewing their insanity (opposing opinions) by whatever means works, lest they return the nation to an open arena of dialogue where the exposition of unpopular ideas is permitted..
We must be like Christians: preach diversity and acceptance but work to eliminate it in ways that appear innocuous and reasonable. That is the secret to a great society where nobody dares to
stray from the proper path. We have seized the pendulum of American Culture and we will
never allow it to swing back!
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)I'm also fond of the constitutional law that provides for free speech.
gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)There is a hell of a lot of picking and choosing when it comes to Constitutional rights and freedoms...a lot like when those on the
"christian right" (which is neither) glom onto a handful of verses from their filthy old book of bronze age mythology to persecute
those who don't meet their Standards of Purity.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)(What are you babbling about?)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)gtar100
(4,192 posts)Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)The fact is that there was virtually no violence until the 'counter protestors" showed up and threw rocks and bottles of piss.
I don't have to agree with the "nazis" to understand that they did at least obtain a permit. I know this comment will anger some here but if we ban or prosecute disagreeable speech we're no better than the other guys. If nobody had paid any attention to them
their little protest would have ended with a whimper instead of a hysterical atomic bang...that is still ringing loud.
The media bears a LOT of blame in this nonsense, as well.
haele
(12,654 posts)1. The White Power yahoos left their designated area and split up into groups to show off and harass locals they could find alone (like the kid who got his head split open in a parking garage) and confront the counter protesters who had remained in their designated area.
Y'know, Heather Heyer was killed and 19 others injured leaving a permitted counter protest area to go back to their own business. They weren't "protesting" when that little a-hole decided to ram his car into a group of pedestrians in a local business and park area. Honestly, it was sheer luck no family with kids or a stroller had been in that intersection at the same time, just out getting a bit of fresh air in the park because the protest was over and clearing out, making it "safe" for the kids. Otherwise, we'd be hearing about the Reicht Wing would be claiming those kids were also Antifa...
2. The clergy group was frightened for their lives before the anarchists and Antifa stepped in between them and took a defensive stance - which hadn't happened during earlier encounters. The anarchists had previously stood down before when asked, but not at that final encounter, when it appeared to some in the group that there were a hundred or so supremacists coming towards their group.
You honestly think that Golf Course Stormtrooper brigade that was lining up armed with clubs shields, and firearms were just going to stand there looking at them menacingly and then march off somewhere else?
I was between the ages of eight and eleven when the worst of the Anti-Vietnam riots were going on at campuses all over the U.S. Both parents were students - first at Berkley, then we went up to U-Dub for Dad to finish his Masters and be able to get a job. I spent a lot of time on campus, and I've experienced a lot of protests - including a couple protests that inadvertently ended up with riots or explosions.
Even at that age, one could tell when people were protesting and when people were getting ready to start a fight. If you're on one side of the quad crossing between protests, and feel you're in danger, the protesters on other side are usually psyching themselves up to charge. Crowd movement before a riot is very distinct, and it's pretty easy to figure out who's itching for a fight.
By accounts - if the counter protesters were taking up a defensive stance while the White Nationalists were lining up, the White Nationalists were going to take the initiative, one way or another. And in this case, I'd trust Cornel West before I'd trust a group of hyper-testosterone fueled little bullies.
Haele
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)nor was the Supreme Court. You seem very young, I recall when the Nazis were an actual political force...whatever these people nowadays are, they sure are nothing like the Nazis of 1940. I still can't understand why you are so opposed to freedom of speech that you don't agree with. I'm a gay man and I think people who utter crap like 'faggot' are pricks, but I'm not even close to comfortable with the idea of making it verboten, much less an excuse for violence.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Calling bullshit on obvious bullshit is the epitome of free speech.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I'm just not going to hide when the NAZIS come to town like the people of Hadleyville did in High Noon and left Marshal Will Kane all alone.
gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)But I rather like this...
Martin: You risk your skin catching killers and the juries turn them loose so they can come back and shoot at you again. If you're honest you stay poor your whole life and in the end you wind up dying all alone on some dirty street. For what? For nothing. For a tin star.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)And I don't have to hide when the NAZIS come to town like the scared townspeople hid in High Noon when the bad guys came to Hadleyville.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But I call bullshit on the idea that the folks who showed up with the clubs and shields to chant about gassing Jews were, like, totally nonviolent until "provoked".
gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)if it's true I will dutifully apologize.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Enlighten us with your first-person account, please.
gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)I guess now it's a sin to ask for evidence. Wow.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)gilbert sullivan
(192 posts)I'm not hidebound to any particular source...like some people seem to be. You didn't provide any, though, it appears.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I've seen 3 videos from the rally in Charlottesville. One is of people chanting "Jews will not replace us", the other shows a car ramming into people and the last one was of 4 guys with clubs beating an African American man bloody.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"Mom, I asked you to wash my undies!"
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If he says the antifa saved his life I believe him.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)swastika-laden dudes who showed up with the homemade riot gear, too.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If you read the whole article those slugs were hurling epithets at a woman walking alone with her kid. What kind of miscreant does that ?